‘This is an emergency’ - Chris van Tulleken on how our diet is killing us
Summary
TLDREl texto proporcionado es una conversación profunda y preocupante sobre los efectos negativos de los alimentos ultraprocesados en nuestra salud. El autor, Chris van Tulleken, aborda el tema argumentando que estos alimentos, diseñados para maximizar la ganancia, han causado un daño significativo a nuestra salud, contribuyendo a la obesidad, la diabetes tipo 2, las enfermedades cardiovasculares y otros problemas de salud relacionados con la dieta. La discusión destaca la importancia de la regulación y la conciencia de los consumidores sobre la naturaleza de estos productos y su impacto en la sociedad. Además, se explora la responsabilidad de las corporaciones y la necesidad de cambios en la política alimentaria para proteger la salud pública.
Takeaways
- 🍽️ **Ultra procesado vs procesado**: Los alimentos ultra procesados son una categoría formal distinta de los alimentos procesados, los cuales incluyen aditivos y emulsificantes que no se encuentran en una cocina doméstica.
- 📈 **Influencia en la salud**: Los alimentos ultra procesados están asociados con una serie de problemas de salud, incluyendo obesidad, diabetes tipo 2, enfermedades cardíacas y cáncer.
- 🧪 **Efectos en el microbioma**: Los aditivos, especialmente los edulcorantes artificiales, pueden afectar el microbioma, lo que a su vez puede influir en la inflamación y la salud general.
- 🌟 **Mercadeo engañoso**: Muchos productos ultra procesados se promocionan como saludables o bajos en grasas, pero esto puede ser engañoso ya que a menudo contienen ingredientes que no son naturales.
- 💰 **Conflictos de interés**: Las grandes corporaciones alimenticias financian a muchas organizaciones y charities, lo que puede llevar a una promoción y normalización de los alimentos ultra procesados.
- 🚫 **Regulación necesaria**: Se hace necesario un cambio en la regulación y políticas públicas para limitar la influencia de las corporaciones alimenticias y promover una dieta más saludable.
- 👨👩👧👦 **Desafíos familiares**: Los padres enfrentan dificultades para hacer frente a las preferencias de los niños influenciadas por los alimentos procesados y la cultura alimentaria actual.
- 🌱 **Alimentación saludable**: Se aboga por una dieta basada en alimentos no procesados o minimamente procesados, preparados en casa, para mejorar la salud y reducir el consumo de alimentos ultra procesados.
- 🛒 **Economía y acceso**: La disponibilidad y el costo de los alimentos saludables son un desafío para muchas familias, y se necesita una solución que aborde estas barreras.
- 🧘♀️ **Conciencia y cambio de hábitos**: El cambio en la alimentación comienza con la conciencia sobre los efectos de los alimentos ultra procesados en la salud y el desarrollo de nuevos hábitos alimentarios.
- 🌟 **Importancia de la educación**: La educación alimentaria es crucial para que las personas puedan tomar decisiones informadas sobre su dieta y para cambiar las normas culturales en torno a la alimentación.
Q & A
¿Qué es la alimentación ultra procesada?
-La alimentación ultra procesada es una categoría formal de alimentos definida hace aproximadamente 10 años. Se caracteriza por contener al menos un ingrediente que no se encuentra normalmente en una cocina doméstica, como gomas de xantana, emulsificantes, saborizantes, edulcorantes naturales o artificiales, y suelen estar envueltas en plástico.
¿Por qué la alimentación ultra procesada es problemática para nuestra salud?
-La alimentación ultra procesada es problemática porque su textura suave y su alta densidad energética pueden llevar a un consumo excesivo que el cuerpo no logra compensar adecuadamente. Además, contiene aditivos que pueden afectar nuestro microbioma, nuestra fisiología interna y están asociados con enfermedades metabólicas, como la obesidad, la diabetes tipo 2 y enfermedades cardiovasculares.
¿Cómo ha cambiado la alimentación en el Reino Unido desde la década de 1980?
-Desde la década de 1980, la alimentación ultra procesada ha sido una parte importante de la dieta en el Reino Unido y ha ido en aumento. Se ha convertido en la principal causa de la pandemia de obesidad y ha tenido un impacto significativo en la salud pública.
¿Por qué la industria alimentaria promueve la alimentación ultra procesada?
-La industria alimentaria promueve la alimentación ultra procesada debido a la presión por el crecimiento financiero. Estos productos están diseñados para ser quasi-adictivos y extraer dinero de los consumidores, lo que resulta en un consumo excesivo.
¿Qué papel juegan los aditivos en la alimentación ultra procesada?
-Los aditivos son solo una parte del problema. Sirven para reconocer la comida y pueden incluir emulsificantes, saborizantes y edulcorantes. Aunque son una preocupación para los consumidores, son solo una pequeña parte de los problemas que presenta la alimentación ultra procesada.
¿Cómo afecta la alimentación ultra procesada el comportamiento alimentario de las personas?
-La alimentación ultra procesada puede ser aditiva para algunas personas. Se ha demostrado que ciertas personas desarrollan una dependencia de ciertos alimentos ultra procesados, lo que hace que sea difícil para ellos detener el consumo.
¿Qué sugiere Chris para lidiar con la adicción a los alimentos ultra procesados?
-Chris sugiere que algunas personas pueden encontrar útil abstenerse de los alimentos ultra procesados si reconocen una tendencia adictiva hacia ellos. Propone leer su libro mientras se consume estos alimentos, lo que podría llevar a que algunas personas se sientan incómodas y no puedan continuar consumiendolos.
¿Por qué la regulación de la alimentación ultra procesada es importante?
-La regulación es importante porque la alimentación ultra procesada ha demostrado ser la principal causa de muerte temprana en la Tierra. Se necesita acción para limitar la publicidad y etiquetar adecuadamente los productos, así como para promover una mayor conciencia y cambio cultural.
¿Cómo podría cambiar la percepción pública y la política en relación con la alimentación ultra procesada?
-Para cambiar la percepción pública y la política, se requiere un cambio de base, donde las comunidades afectadas exijan acción y se desarrolle una nueva cultura que vea a las grandes empresas alimenticias de manera similar a las compañías tabáquicas. Esto incluiría rechazar su financiación y desarrollar políticas que favorezcan la salud pública.
¿Qué papel juegan los conflictos de interés en la regulación de la alimentación ultra procesada?
-Los conflictos de interés desempeñan un papel significativo, ya que muchas organizaciones y profesionales que podrían influir en la regulación están financiadas por las mismas empresas que producen alimentos ultra procesados. Limitar estos conflictos de interés es crucial para un enfoque de regulación justo y efectivo.
¿Cómo podría la etiqueta en los productos alimenticios ayudar a la situación actual?
-La etiqueta en los productos podría ayudar a informar a los consumidores sobre los riesgos asociados con la alimentación ultra procesada, similar a como se ha hecho con los productos tabáquicos. Esto podría incluir advertencias sobre la asociación con enfermedades crónicas y obesidad.
Outlines
😀 Introducción y definición de alimentos ultraprocesados
El primer párrafo presenta la discusión sobre la preocupación de la publicidad de cereales de chocolate con monos y tigres en las cajas, y cómo estos alimentos están relacionados con la obesidad y la muerte temprana. Se da la bienvenida al podcast 'Ways to change the world' y se introduce al invitado, Chris, autor del libro 'Ultra Processed'. Se definen los alimentos ultraprocesados como una categoría formal de alimentos que contienen al menos un ingrediente no typically found en una cocina doméstica, tales como gomas de xanthan, emulsificadores, saborizantes y edulcorantes. Estos alimentos están relacionados con el 60% de las calorías promedio consumidas en el Reino Unido y son la principal causa de la pandemia de obesidad.
😕 Problemas asociados con los alimentos ultraprocesados
El segundo párrafo explora los problemas que los alimentos ultraprocesados presentan más allá de los aditivos, como su textura blanda y su densidad energética, lo que lleva a un consumo excesivo. Se discute cómo los edulcorantes artificiales afectan el microbioma y la fisiología interna, y cómo los aditivos pueden influir en la microbioma, provocando inflamación y enfermedades metabólicas. Se destaca la relación entre los alimentos procesados y la obesidad, la diabetes tipo 2, las enfermedades cardiovasculares y los accidentes cerebrovasculares, y cómo la dieta pobre en ultra procesados ha superado el tabaquismo como la principal causa de muerte temprana en la Tierra.
🤔 Reflexiones sobre el propósito y la regulación de los alimentos
El tercer párrafo aborda el propósito de los alimentos y su impacto social y cultural, y cómo los alimentos ultraprocesados distorsionan estos aspectos. Se cuestiona si los alimentos ultraprocesados deberían considerarse como verdaderos alimentos, y se argumenta que su producción está motivada por el crecimiento financiero en lugar de la nutrición. Se discute la difícil situación de las familias de bajos ingresos para mantener una dieta saludable y se enfatiza la necesidad de cambios en la regulación y la política, así como la importancia de no estigmatizar a las personas con enfermedades relacionadas con la dieta.
😨 Adicción y abuso de los alimentos ultraprocesados
El cuarto párrafo examina la adicción a los alimentos ultraprocesados y cómo algunos de estos alimentos pueden ser tan adictivos como drogas, tabaco y alcohol. Se discute la evidencia científica que respalda esta adicción y se ofrece una perspectiva sobre la moderación y la abstinencia en el consumo de estos alimentos. Se comparte la experiencia personal del autor con la alimentación ultra procesada y cómo escribir el libro lo llevó a renunciar a estos alimentos. Se sugiere que los lectores prueben los alimentos ultra procesados mientras leen el libro, con la esperanza de que al final pierdan el deseo de consumirlos.
😣 El engaño de las etiquetas de 'opción saludable'
El quinto párrafo aborda el tema de las etiquetas de 'opción saludable' en los alimentos ultraprocesados y cómo estas pueden ser engañosas. Se argumenta que los alimentos que contienen afirmaciones de salud en el empaque son probablemente ultraprocesados. Se discute la diferencia entre los alimentos caseros y los comerciales, y cómo los últimos están diseñados para ser hiperpalatables y promover el consumo excesivo. Se destaca la importancia de la regulación y la necesidad de cambios en la política para abordar la adicción a los alimentos ultraprocesados.
😡 La responsabilidad de las corporaciones y la necesidad de acción
El sexto párrafo se enfoca en la responsabilidad de las corporaciones en la producción de alimentos ultraprocesados y cómo la regulación puede cambiar la situación. Se discute la influencia de las corporaciones en la política y la sociedad, y la necesidad de una transformación cultural y cambios en la base de la sociedad para demandar acción. Se sugiere que la etiquetación y la regulación de la publicidad son formas de abordar el problema, y se hace un llamado a la responsabilidad colectiva para cambiar el sistema alimentario que, según el autor, es violento para nuestros cuerpos.
🤔 Desafíos familiares y la influencia del entorno
El séptimo párrafo explora los desafíos que enfrentan los padres al intentar ofrecer una alimentación saludable a sus hijos en un mundo dominado por los alimentos ultraprocesados. Se reconoce la influencia del entorno y la cultura alimentaria en las decisiones de alimentación, y se admite la dificultad de cambiar hábitos alimentarios establecidos. Se ofrecen algunas sugerencias prácticas para reducir el consumo de alimentos ultraprocesados en el hogar y se destaca la importancia de la educación y la regulación gubernamental para promover un cambio más amplio.
😠 Conflictos de intereses y la importancia de la transparencia
El octavo y último párrafo aborda los conflictos de intereses en la industria alimentaria y la importancia de la transparencia en la financiación de la investigación y las organizaciones benéficas. Se enfatiza la necesidad de preguntar quién está financiando la información y la ciencia detrás de las recomendaciones alimentarias. Se argumenta que las personas con enfermedades relacionadas con la dieta no son responsables de su situación y se hace un llamado a la responsabilidad colectiva y a la regulación gubernamental para abordar el problema.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Ultra-processed food
💡Microbiome
💡
💡Food industry
💡Dietary change
💡Additives
💡Inflammation
💡Regulation
💡Conflicts of interest
💡Food labeling
💡Health claims
Highlights
Ultra-processed food is a formal category of foods, defined by ingredients not typically found in a domestic kitchen, such as additives like xanthan gum, emulsifiers, and artificial sweeteners.
Ultra-processed foods are engineered for financialized growth, often leading to excess consumption due to their soft texture and high energy density.
The additives in ultra-processed foods can have powerful effects on the microbiome, potentially contributing to inflammation and metabolic diseases.
Ultra-processed foods can be recognized by their health claims, which are often misleading as the food industry's purpose is financialized growth rather than health.
Ultra-processed food has become the leading cause of early death, surpassing smoking, due to its association with obesity, type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular diseases, and more.
The food industry has been resistant to change, fearing market replacement if they stop selling ultra-processed foods.
Regulation is necessary to address the health impacts of ultra-processed foods, but policy makers have been heavily influenced by the food industry.
Grassroots change and political demand are essential for initiating policy changes to regulate ultra-processed foods.
Labeling ultra-processed foods with health warnings could be a simple regulatory step towards informing consumers of potential health risks.
The food industry's marketing tactics target children, contributing to the rise in childhood obesity and diet-related diseases.
Parents struggle to control their children's diets due to the pervasive influence of ultra-processed foods in schools, social events, and even at home.
Ultra-processed foods are part of a broader trend of 'ultra-processing' in modern life, which includes technology and entertainment, making them difficult to avoid.
The book 'Ultra-processed' offers an invitation to readers to reconsider their relationship with food while they read, potentially leading to a change in eating habits.
The concept of food addiction is real for some individuals, with ultra-processed foods being as addictive as drugs of abuse, tobacco, and alcohol for certain people.
The food industry's manipulation of flavor, texture, and packaging creates an illusion of satisfaction, promoting overconsumption and contributing to poor health outcomes.
Dr. Chris van Tulleken emphasizes the importance of scrutinizing the sources of information on health and diet, questioning who funds the research and charities involved.
Regulation should focus on creating a level playing field for the food industry, allowing companies to thrive while promoting healthier food choices and reducing diet-related diseases.
Transcripts
you shouldn't have a monkey selling
chocolate cereal to kids at breakfast
time there shouldn't be a tiger on the
box you shouldn't have this stuff at the
counter this is this is gentle stuff for
what is now the leading cause of early
death for context this is an emergency
right
[Music]
hello and welcome to ways to change the
world I'm Christian Gary Murphy and this
is the podcast in which we talk to
extraordinary people about the big ideas
and their lives and the events that have
helped shape them my guest this week is
a doctor and broadcaster and now the
author of I think one of the books of
the year it's called Ultra processed
people why do we all eat stuff that
isn't food and why can't we stop
um Chris welcome it's such a pleasure to
be here um well it's great great to have
you here this has come at the right time
in my life because I'm going through a
sort of radical dietary change so I'm
absolutely fascinated by the ideas in
your book and what you're saying
um we better just lay out our terms what
we're talking about first of all
um so what what is ultra processed food
so Ultra processed food is is not an
informal term like junk food it's a
formal category of foods
the definition was developed about 10
years ago and there's a very long
scientific definition long because it
has to Encompass so many different
processes but it boils down to this if
it's wrapped in plastic and it contains
at least one ingredient that you don't
typically find in a domestic kitchen
then it's Ultra processed food so things
like xanthan gum emulsifiers flavorings
sweeteners artificial or natural
sweeteners those are all examples of
ultra processed food additives so this
is often things like ready meals that
look like stuff that you might cook
but have actually got something extra in
the way I'd think about it is for every
real food there is an ultra processed
alternative that is a better way of
extracting money from us so much of it
is obvious junk the High Street is full
of you know uh factory made Fried
Chicken and Burgers and frozen pizzas
and ice cream and almost all of that is
ultra processed but almost all of our
Supermarket bread is ultra processed all
of our fruit yogurts are Ultra processed
most almost all of our breakfast cereal
is ultra process so at the moment in the
UK it makes up about 60 of the calories
we eat on average and for a for a young
person a teen or or even a baby it can
make up uh 70 80 to 100 of their
calories so this is this is most of what
we're eating this is our national diet
and it's what what we've eaten for many
generations but well ah now that's
interesting so is it is it because I I
would assume that Ultra processed food
is a relatively new thing you know sort
of in the since the birth of convenience
and
it's new in terms of our physiology but
it's it's old in terms of our lifespan
so you and I will have grown up eating
the same breakfast cereals that our kids
do it was invented the first examples of
19th century so the replacement of
butter with margarine is a great example
of ultra processing
um that happened late 19th century but
it was with the invention of the
microwaving the home freezer and and the
the the shift of the labor force so more
women entering the labor force after
World War II it's the 50s 60s and 70s
where these products really really took
off but in the UK it's been a big part
of our diet since the 80s and it's been
growing since then and it's the the
primary cause of pandemic obesity
and is it different to processed food so
processed food is broadly fine there's
there's the way I think about food is
there's whole food but there's very
little food that you eat raw off a tree
or pulled out of the sea you know
there's oysters and apple uh that's
those are pretty much the only things
processing is ancient humans are what we
call obligate processables we have to
process our food compared to other
animals of our size we have one of the
shortest digestive tracts uh in in
nature we've got tiny teeth very small
jaws we've extended our digestive
biology outside of our bodies we did
that with the invention of cooking over
a million years ago and since then
mainly female domestic scientists have
been grinding smashing pulverizing
extracting molecules drying salting
curing smoking we've been doing all
these processes so we've got evidence of
dairying from the Sahara Desert uh six
seven eight thousand years ago we can
find shards of pottery covered in
residues of dairy fat that we know was
processed so we've been making butter
for thousands of years butter is fine
the invention of margarine where we take
a liquid plant oil that will spoil
quickly and we refine it to bleach it
deodorize it into a stereophyte and
hydrogenate it to make it fatty to make
it solid we then emulsify it with mono
and diglycerides of fatty acids we add
water we then add colorings and
flavorings to turn it into synthetic
butter that's new and our bodies are
poorly evolved to deal with those
processes
so what's wrong with these extra things
that we're putting into Ultra processed
food so the additives are just one part
of the problem because the additives are
the way we recognize the food so people
listening can go to their cupboards and
they can get their packet of bread out
and the bread might say it's full of
fiber but you'll find emulsifiers on the
bread because all our bread is an
emulsified foam and so people have
started to
um worry about the additives in fact the
additives are a small part of the
problem
there are a number of different ways
that Ultra processed food affects our
biology for the most part it's
incredibly soft and it's incredibly
energy dense so per gram it has a lot of
calories the softness and the energy
density means that we consume it at a
far higher rate than our internal
systems that should tell us when to stop
eating can can catch up so broadly if
you whether you're eating a burger or a
piece of fried chicken or a bottle of
breakfast cereal there are illusions of
texture there'll be little crunches and
pops and snaps and greasy bits and dry
bits and chewy bits but it's all
inhaliably fast to eat and the hormones
that tell you to stop just just can't
keep up so that's a big part of the
problem
this then are quite a long list of other
ways it affects us so the artificial
sweeteners the who has just released a
report on this week they have powerful
effects on the microbiome on our pallets
and on our internal physiology if you
put sweet taste in the mouth and the
sugar never arrives it spikes your
insulin and broadly you go and get your
sugar elsewhere which is why artificial
sweeteners aren't associated with weight
loss
we think some of the additives in the
food affect the microbiome
um we think the money that's your gut
that's that's these are the the trillion
or so friendly bacteria that don't just
live in your guts eating your leftovers
they secrete molecules that regulate
your immune system provide fuel for your
heart uh that are really important for
your brain development so these bugs are
very much a part of us and all kinds of
things about the food uh interact with
these bugs modify the populations and
feed them in different ways and we think
Drive inflammation so we are seeing at
the moment as well as going hand in hand
with the pandemic of obesity we're also
seeing pandemic of inflammatory bowel
disease of metabolic disease like type 2
diabetes of cardiovascular diseases and
strokes and all of these problems there
is a reasonable degree of evidence that
they are they are caused by our diet
primarily so in 2019 our poor diet which
is to say an ultra process site overtook
smoking as the leading cause of early
death on planet Earth so we've got all
these different ways that the food
affects our physiology for me there is
one really important part of the
definition of ultra processed food which
sort of cuts through all that because
there's a certain amount of mystery
about exactly what this food does to us
and different products affect us in
different ways you know diet diet cola
affects us differently to emulsified
bread
broadly speaking this is food which is
engineered not just for profit but fine
for financialized growth and that is its
purpose and so the cereals that you and
I ate as children and we would my kids
eat the same Brands since we were kids a
few decades ago those cereals have been
iterated through focus groups through
tasting panels and one of the things
that's measured and I spoke to a lot of
people within the food industry for the
book one of the things that's measured
is how much and how quickly do people
eat and so each year our breakfast
cereals and our Breads and our ready
meals and our pizzas all the dials are
tweaked so that we eat more
and what we're left with is a set of
products that are brilliant at
extracting money with us because they're
quasi-addictive so the profit incentive
is a really important part of how this
food is engineered to drive excess
consumption I mean there's a lot to
unpack you know in that um so so let's
kind of let's let's go back if you like
to
you know what what food is for you know
um because that's that's the sort of
fundamental question isn't it you know
because I think you know I imagine there
are sort of you know this conversation
divides people between those who kind of
go
oh God you know it's another sort of
nugget munching Health Food freak he
just wants us to stop enjoying our food
and wants me to spend hours in the
kitchen cooking whole grains and and eat
stuff that tastes of mud and there are
lots of other people going
as I as I am at the moment you know that
I I it's going I've lived eating this
stuff for decades I feel like it's
catching up with me I know this is
necessary conversation uh to be having
and and in fact I've I it's a
coincidence really that I've been kind
of going through
a diet over the last month in which I've
cut out a lot of this stuff
um
and I'm feeling you know much much
better as a result uh I'm much much
healthier so so you kind of need to
start with you know what why do we eat
do we do we you know because we eat for
social purposes
um
it demonstrates our status and our
position in society it's a you know if I
if I have a meeting with people half the
time it will be over food
um have we got sort of food wrong
there's a role in in what we in our
lives is the corollary of what you're
asking is ultra processed food actually
food and this was the proposition that
was was given to me by a collapse I'm
not a scientist I collaborate with in
Brazil called Fernanda rauber and we
were planning a research study because
I'm a I'm an academic as well as a
physician and I I study how companies
food companies affect our health and
every time I talked about food she'd
correct me and go it's not food it's an
industrially produced edible substance
and its purpose is financialized growth
which isn't quite the same as profit it
has a specific meaning
um you're completely right food has a
social cultural and nutritional role and
all of those those aspects of it are
being destroyed by the very very small
number of corporations that now produce
food for us so there are 10 to 15 by
most counts by some measurements there
are only four companies that really make
almost all the calories we eat and and
there's another layer that produce the
ingredients
so the purpose of food historically has
been about love and nourishment and
feeding friends family and community and
that has determined our physiology the
number of genes we have for metabolizing
alcohol for digesting starch the the way
our bodies are shaped everything about
our gut is because of the food that's
been developed historically and we're
well evolved to eat it
um
the food that we have now all of that
tradition most of which is oral most of
which is not particularly well written
down all of it is being
replaced by this project of the
transsational food companies to entirely
take over our Global diet and so we're
seeing the nutrition transition that
happened in the U.S Canada the UK
and Australia a little bit northern
Europe to some extent where we switched
from a traditional diet where we ate
foods that we'd been eating for a long
time that happened quite gradually from
the 70s to the present day in places
like Brazil in West Africa in central
Africa it's happening overnight it is so
fast and particularly and in East Asia
the same thing is happening so the
question of what
is food is very very important and I
think it is useful to cast Ultra
processed food as not food
now that's typical isn't it because they
they would say Well it it
you know that's a silly thing to say
because it's nutritious it's full of you
know all the right food groups
um and it's affordable and you know we
are providing a public service we're
providing affordable food to people who
can't necessarily afford to go to you
know the health food shop and buy
ingredients and spend loads of time
cooking and doing all of that um what's
your answers so it's so important that
the caveat to that is that this is the
only affordable available food for many
many people and particularly in the UK
so for a low-income household to eat a
healthy diet according to our NHS
guidelines which don't talk about Ultra
processing they would need to spend
between 60 and 70 of their household
income on food at the moment we spend
between six and seven percent in the UK
we spend less on food than any other
country apart from the states because
everything else is so expensive
I think that the food industry are going
to be very skillful and and we're seeing
this a little bit at costing me and all
my academic colleagues that agree with
me because I've written a book but this
is the view of really
um good research groups at Cambridge at
Harvard
at the World Health Organization this is
very robustly uh uh evidenced as an idea
that this is the leading cause of diet
related disease now the argument the
response from the food industry is to
cast those who critique Ultra processed
food as a misogynist or people who want
to further disadvantage or stigmatize
the populations that are actually being
predated on by the companies themselves
what's really important when we have
this discussion is that we have it with
kindness and we do nothing to further
stigmatize people who live with dark
related disease especially obesity
because at the moment obesity is
probably the characteristic that is most
stigmatized particularly by doctors
so this is a really slippery
conversation to have for me the
important thing is to maintain a laser
focus on critiquing the people who can
fix the problem industry actually have a
very limited ability to fix the problem
the people who can fix the problem are
doctors and government who need to act
as Regulators but what's different about
what you're saying is you know we're
used to a lot of dietary conversations
being about well you know moderation is
you know being you're not saying Ultra
processed food is okay in moderation
you're saying it's not food we shouldn't
really be having it actually I'm saying
I think there will be two people
listening or watching to this there will
be two kinds of people there may be
people like me who recognize in
themselves an addicted tendency and the
the uh science showing that for some
people
some Ultra processed foods are as
addictive as drugs of abuse as tobacco
products as alcohol is very strong and
so if you recognize that you have an
addiction to these Foods or you
recognize an addicted relationship those
people may find it useful to try and
quit and the book is offering an idea an
invitation really to eat along as part
of that project so I that that's that
claim about addiction is the thing that
I think we also need to hear a bit more
about because you know on the face of it
what you say is really shocking so are
you you know are you saying that the
foods that most of us are eating
are addictive to a you know well our
addictive at all you know what is the
evidence
so people I think one of the the reasons
that people don't think that I am just
proposing that everyone stay at home and
eat yogurt is because people actually
have the evidence of their own
experience that this food is extremely
hard to stop eating now it's not not
everyone is addicted to their
supermarket bread or their breakfast
cereal but many many people who are
living with overweight or obesity will
recognize there are foods that they
simply cannot stop eating and I've
certainly had that experience you may
have lots of people have and we've got
lots and lots of data showing that when
you rate an addictive substance and you
do surveys or you do neuroimaging to say
how easy is it for someone to quit this
Food Scores extremely highly as highly
as tobacco products right is that
addiction or is that habit it it's you
know is it an actual chemical dependence
or is it just you get so used to it you
then can't live without it to some
extent that's a that's a philosophical
distinction the behave addiction is a
set of behaviors it describes
um seeking out and doing something
despite knowing the harm it causes now
there is some argument people have
advanced the idea that food addiction is
a behavioral addiction I don't think the
evidence for that is very strong people
are powerfully addicted to the
substances themselves and when we image
the brains of people who are using these
substances they do seem to be very
addicted and people don't describe the
act of eating is the thing they're
addicted to they describe the food
itself and if you ask people whether or
not they're able to quit despite knowing
the harm and the harms of this food are
extremely widely known people find it
really really hard to quit the addiction
evidence is strong now just as for some
people abstinence from alcohol is going
to be essential people who live with
addiction find moderation extremely hard
I do
um there are people who can be moderate
and so probably about half the people
listening to this are going to say well
it would be good for me to cut down but
for example I feed my kids most weeks my
kids have beans on toast toast made from
Supermarket braids and fish fingers for
dinner or they'll have a microwavable
lasagna and they go to kids parties and
they have a bag of sweets they have
crisps at the weekend they have ice
cream so I don't ban this in my kids but
we do try and keep intake down so that
it isn't making up most of their
calories
now in the process of doing this you did
what I did when I quit smoking
um using the Alan Carr method which was
smoke all the way through it until you
get to the end and then you don't want
another cigarette and at the beginning
of the process they say
you're going to smoke all the way
through this and then you're not going
to want another one at the end and you
kind of think well that's total nonsense
you get to the end and for me it works
it doesn't work for everyone but for me
it did and you did something very
similar so the book
um I had the experience writing the book
that I spoke to it was it was the
scientist in Brazil actually and after
this conversation went and I'd been
speaking to lots and lots of scientists
about the harms it does to the body
whilst I was eating an ultra processed
food diet as part of an experiment at
University College London and I suddenly
sat down to eat a fried chicken dinner
and I could not eat it and I'd been
released from this addiction that I'd
had for a very long time and so the
proposal in the book is that we are all
part of an experiment that we didn't
volunteer for
uh we take all the risk in this
experiment where new molecules and new
combinations of old molecules are added
to our food we take the risk while the
benefit is handed to a very small number
of individuals who own these companies
and so my invitation to the reader is
just eat these Foods while you read it's
not going to do any more harm to do it
some people find that by the end of the
book they are simply unable to eat the
food anymore other people want to quit
quit
um other people just want to to cut down
but the Alan Carr method that you
describe
is one of the best evidenced methods for
quitting an addiction so I think the
science around this food being addictive
for some people is very very good and
unless we regulate unless we unless
policy makers
frame it that in a way that understands
that some people do find types of ultra
processed food addictive I think we're
we're not going to make great progress I
mean for me comparing it to smoking
the the reason I was able to give up was
because I it totally changed the way I
thought about
cigarettes and smoking you know I I you
know because by the end of that process
for me it was like well that's just a
kind of
stupid addiction you know it kind of it
it doesn't make you feel but you think
it makes you feel better but it doesn't
and
um it's a waste of health and money and
time and and all those things so it's a
what you know only an idiot would smoke
after that
um are you saying that you get once you
once you go through this process of
thinking about food this way
you're going to get to the place where
you are where you're saying this is not
really food so why would I put that in
my body
part of it we don't entirely understand
why that method of of doing something
harmful whilst engaging with the
information why it helps
part of it is probably that this food
and cigarettes in in a similar way
they're made by in some cases the same
companies this food is the food that you
inspect the very least while it passes
your lips when you go to a restaurant
you have a tasting menu if you have all
that money and you try wine you're
constantly analyzing it you want to
understand the terroir it was grown on
the flavors and the provenance of
everything this food Optical processed
food we don't inspect once you start to
inspect it it reveals the lies the food
is telling you so Ultra processed food
is full of flavorings ins you know added
flavorings instead of real flavor it's
full of gums that replace fats it's full
of sweeteners instead of sugars and so
once you start to taste the lies many of
them become a little bit disgusting once
you realize that the fatty sliminess in
your mouth isn't fat it comes from a
bacterial exudate like xanthan gum many
people start to go I can taste that now
maybe I I want to eat a bit less of it
the forbidden fruit is also a big part
of it a lot of the marketing around the
food promotes the idea that this is
naughty it's a treat and yet it's become
a treat that we all eat every day so in
a sense releasing yourself from the
spell of the forbidden fruit is is part
of what the book's about just just
indulge roll around in it but quite a
lot of that food also says Healthy
Choice low fat you know or you know it
tells you that it's healthy I mean are
you are you really saying this is
misselling
yes I think a really
there are two things first of all A good
rule of thumb is if a food contains a
health as a health claim written on the
packet it's almost certainly Ultra
processed
with any one food you can't really talk
about it being a healthy food or an
unhealthy food with any single product
and the same is true whether if you talk
about an egg or a piece of broccoli you
can't live on Broccoli nor can you live
on eggs
um as a category of food the evidence is
extremely clear with particular aspects
of any one food the evidence is also
very clear but if you hold up any
particular breakfast cereal with let's
say all it has is some flavorings added
to it in fact there's one in the lobby
that's been given out for free at
Channel floor and it's only out of it's
only ingredient that makes it UPF is
natural flavorings now can we say that
that it that breakfast cereal is or
isn't harmful no but if your dietary
pattern includes 60 of your calories
from UPF what we are really sure about
is that that is strongly associated with
the very long list of negative Health
outcomes that go with being an adult in
one of the North West Rich parts of the
world so so let's come back to sort of
what
what what what effect these foods have
on us because again we're used to sort
of hearing that these sorts of foods
either have too much sugar or too much
fat or the wrong kind of fat so beyond
these
um you know flavorings and gums that we
don't really know what effect they have
on us
um what is it that we're eating that is
that is bad for us that's having adverse
effects
so in terms of if we compared a homemade
chocolate brownie say to one that you
might buy at the shop now we no one's
ever done this piece of research but we
have lots of evidence that the chocolate
brownie at the shop will have much
smaller particle size you'll absorb it
quicker it's been processed more
aggressively physically it'll be
extruded and mechanically recovered
it would have been made using ratios of
salt and fat and sugar that we know
drive hyperpalatability so a good cook
at home can make a delicious chocolate
brownie but they're making it
to satisfy you to nourish you to to
create a bond for some for some love and
some pleasure they're not doing it to
make you eat as much chocolate brownie
as they possibly can and what food
scientists been able to do for a long
time is create ratios of fats and salts
and sugars that drive excess consumption
so you want more when you say hyper
palatability so what is a hyper
palatable food is food that is has this
quasi-addictive property that you just
can't stop eating yes that you'll go
back to and eat more and P everyone will
recognize this sensation of the the
packet that you've stopped enjoying
smokers recognize this and so do food
addicts which is many of us that we
never leave any food behind so the
standard
um UK lunch of Sandwich crunchy stuff in
a packet uh fizzy drink that's what we
all drink that is our national lunch all
of that is ultra processed and I put it
to you that not a single person in the
history of that lunch has ever left a
few crisps in the pack you never leave
the crust of the sandwich do you no one
ever does even though that lunch is 900
to 1000 to 1200 calories sometimes even
when that lunch is from an organic fresh
um uh you know wholesome chain there are
several of them where it's presented to
us as really healthy food and you might
have it with a with a healthy drink and
some popcorn rather than the crisps it's
still a huge calorific load in that
example is the problem that there's too
many calories or so when it comes to
weight gain uh
there's been a big argument about this
it is entirely resolved that if we eat
more calories than we burn then we will
gain weight and so when it comes to
weight gain yes the problem is that we
eat too many calories of this food and
and that is not a choice that we're
making it's because the food is
engineered to drive excess consumption
and it's and we're very sure about that
so in terms of that chocolate brownie
we've got a very very perfect mix of
traditional molecules and then it will
also contain things some of which are
there to save money so Dairy fats will
be replaced by these very modified plant
fats because they're just fantastically
cheaper if you can use a solid Palm fat
compared to uh actual Dairy butter
um one is is massive possibly 10 times
cheaper than the other so the the the
um some of the uh the fats will interact
with our body in harmful ways we think
the emulsifiers that bind everything
together will affect there's really good
evidence that emulsifiers affect our
microbiome the friendly bugs that live
inside us emulsifiers occur in nature
when you make a salad dressing mustard
is an emulsifier you could use egg yolk
that's an emulsifier something about
those emulsifiers is very different to
the emulsifiers like the Lesser thins
carboxymethyl cellulose polysorbate 80
and we've got really good research on
these published in big journals like
nature this isn't a single study showing
that the emulsifiers which are a form of
detergent they bind water to Fat they're
essentially kind of scrubbing out the
gut they change our mucus our thickness
of the mucus and they alter the
population of bugs that live inside us
so if the evidence is so clear
how is this stuff allowed
well one of the things is the way in
terms of the the additives the way we
think about additives is the questions
that's always been asked is are they
acutely toxic now in terms of eating a
spoonful of any of them none of them
will poison you today what we're
becoming increasingly concerned about is
their long-term effects on our metabolic
health and our risk of say obesity those
things are just really really hard to
study and we aren't being precautionary
enough about them so I think when it
comes to adding uh molecules to our food
where there is good evidence from mice
that there is a risk of inflammation for
example inflammatory disease or
metabolic disease we should be really
really cautious about adding those
molecules to food so that's that's the
additives when it comes to ultra
processed food as a category
um policy makers are behind I think for
two reasons in the UK there has been a
near total capture of uh
policymakers themselves
the Charities and big organizations that
inform policy and particularly the
medical profession by the companies that
make the food so most of our big
activists Charities and the patient
associations that give guidance and
opinion statements on the way food
affects our health are funded by the
list of companies we would all name as
making the least healthy products we
could think of so how do you think
regulation could change that
so the most important step in terms of
Regulation there are two things that
have to happen before we even think
about regulation one is Grassroots
change but politicians can't do anything
without people demanding this and I
think the book has resonance with people
because people do feel like they are
being gaslit by their own food by the
people selling food to them as we all
get bigger and I include myself we
realize that the solutions we've been
sold aren't working so we need
Grassroots change and we need the
affected communities to start demanding
action and I hope the book provides
evidence for them to be able to do that
we then need a cultural change where we
start to think about the big food
companies in the same way we do the
tobacco companies that is not the same
as saying the food is like cigarettes
and stigmatizing everyone it's not the
same as saying all the policy changes
need to be the same we can't tax this
food for obvious reasons but regarding
the food companies as similar to Tobacco
companies is important because it will
mean we have to refuse their money we
will we will have to start doing
research that isn't funded by them and
the Charities that Advocate to change
advocate for change will have to stop
stop taking their money too and that
that is the single biggest thing and
once you've done that everything else is
unlocked because specific policies need
to be developed
with the people who are affected by the
food then it's pretty straightforward
you limit marketing because that doesn't
affect anyone you know you're not
limiting freedoms we need to label
healthy food and in our national
guidance we do need to put a line that
could read something like
um early evidence shows or a significant
amount of evidence shows that Ultra
processed food is strongly associated
with inflammatory diseases like Crohn's
disease metabolic diseases like type 2
diabetes certain cancers depression
anxiety obesity and overweight and early
death that would be very easy to write
and once that's in the guidance you can
teach it in schools and you can have
public health campaigns and everyone can
get behind the idea I mean you will have
seen how difficult it is for governments
to regulate at all on you know on this
when they're looking at advertising
rules the broadcasters go up in arms and
say you're going to put broadcasters out
of out of business when they you know
when they're looking at sort of two for
one deals and all that kind of stuff
there's always a Lobby that will argue
against it and politicians quite often
cave in
I mean that what you're talking about is
sort of that on steroids
I mean I'm talking about very light
regulation I would say I'm talking about
you shouldn't have a monkey selling
chocolate cereal to kids at breakfast
time there shouldn't be a tiger on the
box you shouldn't have this stuff at the
counter this is this is gentle stuff for
what is now the leading cause of early
death I for context this is an emergency
right it's not this isn't small beer so
one in five kids leaving Primary School
living with obesity and almost all of
them will go on and continue to live
with obesity and a growing number of
diet related diseases in adult life and
these children really really suffer and
proposing very light touch regulation
that doesn't include any tax
is not particularly onerous I would say
um one of the things we might try and
regulate would be the lobbying itself
and very few countries do it but if we
look to examples from around the world
there are some Latin American countries
that have done an incredible job because
they've seen within a a decade uh
communities uh go from having almost no
obesity to many many adults having
amputations because of the rate of
diabetes the the pressure from Civil
Society to regulate this food has been
enormous and so in many many countries
they now put labels on the food Chile is
a great example they put big black
hexagons on Ultra processed food so this
can be done but there needs to be a view
that when it comes to the nanny state
right you can either have
um no regulation because you're so
frightened of giving people information
I don't see why labeling things is
nannying them if you're not taxing them
and you're not Banning them and I'm
definitely not proposing Banning
anything
um or you can have everyone nannied by
fundamentally predatory transnational
corporations who will do the nannying
and tell everyone what to eat and do
that for you so we're going to be
nannied either way so we do live in a
nanny State already The Nanny state is
run by by the corporations that aren't
elected
now I know you're not giving people a
prescription here you're not advising
people to live a certain way but I mean
if we want to take the lessons from this
book and apply it to our lives you've
already admitted it's not
straightforward and it's not cheap
but you know I know in my household my
teenagers do not listen to me about what
it is healthy to eat and what it is not
healthy to eat my three-year-old and my
five-year-old don't listen to me about
it yeah so so so you know that's a
bigger question isn't it about how we
actually change the way we live you know
I mean I buy lots of healthy food now in
my in my sort of um you know new
Revolution
um and my kids go to the fridge and they
open the fridge and they go there's
nothing to eat I go there's a fridge
full of healthy stuff to eat and they go
I can't eat any of that you know it's
the meme of an ingredient household kids
complaining that it's just a house full
of ingredients there's no real food
look we have no control we have very
little control over what we eat
if we have money in education we have
some control but we have very little
control over what our kids eat our kids
are fed at school uh our kids are fed at
their friends houses and our kids have
to be um a big part of parenting I think
is having kids who feel normal who don't
feel like an exception like they don't
feel eccentric and so eating this food
is a big part of that so my kids are
very much not banned from eating this
food definitely not when they go to
parties I try and reduce their
consumption at home and we don't have a
lot of it in the cupboards but they do
have some grandparents buy it for them
and relatives and friends they come home
with party packs
um I don't have a great answer for a
parent who is struggling there are some
people who have read the book and have
just said you know I believe everything
you say but this is really hard for me
to change and that is why the book is an
argument that the food system we live
within is incredibly violent to our
bodies and it desperately needs changing
um and people can't make choices that
are healthy many people are incredibly
constrained by the world around them so
changing School food would be good if
people want a tip I won't give anyone a
tip because it's just not it's not my
job I don't understand your budget your
life your time your contract your hours
I don't understand anything about your
life but what I do is I try and get
control over breakfast so um breakfast
is the one meal of the day where you you
get to buy the stuff and you can choose
what's available the other thing I do is
I get my kids bored and hungry and I put
real food in front of them so a bowl of
chopped up
raw fruit and veg they will just out of
sheer boredom eat it in front of the TV
that's that's not a bad place to start
retraining that palette and what do you
think about the whole idea of sort of
comfort food and things like that I mean
I literally went into my
17 year old daughter's bedroom yesterday
very stressed because she's doing a
levels and she had a three packet of
Crunchies and a multi-pack of Watsons
and
which she just obviously bought herself
and sort of secreted into her room and
she was going I'm doing a levels I'm
stressed okay how do you say that's
going to make you feel worse than men
rather than better I don't know how
anyone has that conversation with their
kids for my I can project forward 10
years and that's going to be an
incredibly difficult conversation to
have with my kids uh certainly the
evidence shows that this is food that is
associated with anxiety and depression
possibly with neuroinflammation I would
suspect that there's no reason to think
it would improve performance when it
comes to comfort my question is always
are you really comforted by this food
the food often like the cigarettes like
the alcohol like the gambling like all
the other things in our lives that we
lean on it it feels like the solution
and yet it's incredibly short term but
it is sold to us as the solution so um
asking how much you are enjoying that
particular crunchy thing or that
inflammable tube of tobacco inquiring of
it what it means is quite important our
world is very Ultra processed so it's
not just our food our phones are Ultra
processed our apps are Ultra processed
our music is our television our games
Ultra processing is a is a mechanism for
creating something that is uh almost
impossible to avoid over consuming and
it's a way it's a brilliant way of
generating money and particularly it's a
way of commodifying the ill health of
the most disadvantaged people on Earth
and further enriching people who already
have more money than they know what to
do with
have a sense that you were embarking on
a crusade when you when you did this
book I mean
I wonder what you you know what the
unintended consequences are you know
you're telling your children's
broadcaster
and suddenly in a very controversial
argument with the food industry
again does that make you worry about
my colleagues at um a lot of my
colleagues who I work with at World
Health Organization or particularly in
Latin America have been really violently
threatened
um and certainly uh there is evidence
that the food industry has committed
acts of extreme violence a very
deliberate violence against activists in
other countries I don't think that's
likely to happen here when I speak to
people within the food industry they all
privately say we would love to stop
selling this but there is no point in us
stopping selling it because we will just
be replaced in the market by someone who
is willing so until there's a Level
Playing Field nothing will change I
think people within the food industry
want to do the right thing and I think I
think everyone is ready for government
to step in and go yeah let's limit the
marketing here let's label the packets
let's put it in the in the guidance
people buy this idea at the heart of the
book it's it's incredibly
straightforward really the food made by
Massive companies with obligations to
Pension funds A makes your body
differently to food made at home by
someone who loves you I mean that's it's
not it's what we've all believed for
decades now we have very robust evidence
that proves it and if the government's
regulator then companies will have to
comply and won't have to listen to their
shareholders and they will be fine when
we regulated the pharmaceutical industry
very intensively in the early 2000s they
continue to make massive amounts of
money industry will be fine if you could
change the world then with one Fell
Swoop how would you change it
I would I would
have
severe regulations around conflicts of
interest
you cannot accept money from someone who
profits from generating diet related
disease in children whilst at the same
time claim that you yourself can solve
diet related diseasing children or in
adults so limiting the conflicts of
interest opens up the entire world of
regulatory possibilities in ways that
are fair and just and reasonable and
everyone can still make money and
everyone will be healthier but that the
problem is with these conflicts it's the
Charities and the doctors taking the
money from industry and I think if
there's one thing I'd like your your
listeners and and and viewers to
understand there would be two things
first of all ask who is paying the
person that is giving them information
who paid for this science who is funding
this charity look at look at the funding
of the charities
and the second thing is to understand
that people who live with diet related
disease are not responsible for it but
they are no more responsible for what
they eat than we are for the amount of
water we drink
um it is a problem of genes interacting
with an environment that is inherently
violent and uh and that is what needs
regulating
Chris van teleken thank you very much
indeed such a pleasure
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