The DISASTEROUS Imperfect Preservation Of The Quran [Debate] | Sam Shamoun

Summary

The transcript is a discussion centered around the Quran and the Bible, highlighting differences in belief systems regarding the preservation of religious texts. The speaker challenges the idea that the Bible was corrupted after Prophet Muhammad, questioning the logic of assuming the Quran's authenticity based on circular reasoning. They also delve into Islamic traditions, particularly the 'seven modes' (Ahruf) of the Quran, emphasizing the uncertainty around their meaning and raising concerns about variant readings in both the Quran and Bible, questioning the consistency of the arguments on religious preservation.

Takeaways

• 📖 The speaker reflects on their initial belief that the Bible must have been corrupted after Muhammad's time due to the teachings of the Quran.
• 🔄 The speaker points out the circular reasoning involved in assuming Muhammad is a prophet and therefore the Bible must have been altered if it contradicts the Quran.
• 📜 The Quran instructs Muhammad to confirm the scriptures of the Jews and Christians, which still exist in the same form today, as evidenced by manuscripts.
• 📚 The speaker hadn't previously researched manuscript evidence or carbon dating when they were questioning these religious beliefs.
• 📓 A book titled 'The Transmission of the Variant Readings of the Quran' is recommended for studying Quranic variations and the history of its transmission.
• 🧩 The speaker highlights that the Quran has many variant readings, some of which are even acknowledged by Islamic scholars, raising questions about its textual integrity.
• ❓ There is uncertainty and mystery surrounding the exact meaning of the term 'Saba' (seven modes) in Islamic tradition, which is linked to variant Quranic readings.
• 🕵️‍♂️ Islamic scholars agree that the 'Saba' are not the seven canonical readings of the Quran, which were canonized much later.
• ⚖️ The speaker draws a comparison between the way the Quran’s variations are viewed and how the Gospel of John would be viewed if it had undergone similar textual changes.
• 🗣️ The speaker concludes by reflecting on how the Quran is often regarded as miraculous despite the documented variations in its text.

Q & A

What belief did the speaker initially hold about the Bible and the Quran?

The speaker believed that the Bible must have been corrupted after the Prophet Muhammad because the Quran is considered 100% God's word without human intervention.

What is 'circular reasoning' as discussed in the transcript?

Circular reasoning is assuming a conclusion to be true and using it to validate the same conclusion. In the context of the transcript, it refers to assuming Muhammad is a prophet and therefore, if the Bible contradicts the Quran, the Bible must have been corrupted.

Why does the speaker reject the idea that the Quran is wrong about previous scriptures?

The speaker believes the Quran is 100% from God, and thus cannot be wrong about anything, including its descriptions of previous scriptures like the Torah and the Gospel.

What challenge does the other speaker present regarding pre-Muhammad Bible manuscripts?

The challenge presented is that there are Bible manuscripts from before the time of Muhammad that are identical to what we have today, questioning the claim that the Bible was corrupted after Muhammad.

What is the 'Saba El AG' or 'Ahruf' in the Quranic tradition?

The 'Saba El AG' or 'Ahruf' refers to the seven modes in which the Quran was revealed. However, there is uncertainty regarding the exact meaning of 'Ahruf,' and no clear explanation has been provided by Muslim scholars.

What is the significance of 'variant readings' in the Quran?

Variant readings refer to differences in the transmission of the Quranic text. The speaker discusses how the Quran has thousands of variant readings and was standardized through a process involving the destruction of other versions, raising questions about its preservation.

How does the speaker relate the Quran's preservation to criticisms of the Bible's transmission?

The speaker draws a parallel by saying that if Muslims criticize the Bible for having different versions or manuscripts, they should apply the same logic to the Quran, which also has variant readings and went through a process of standardization.

What is the Hadith's role in understanding the Quranic 'Ahruf'?

The Hadith provides prophetic traditions about the Quran's 'Ahruf,' but even these traditions do not clarify the exact meaning of the term. Scholars are still uncertain about what 'Ahruf' refers to.

What hypothetical situation does the speaker present regarding the Gospel of John?

The speaker imagines a scenario where the Gospel of John was revealed in seven modes, but no one knows what they are, and one of John's companions destroyed all but one. This scenario is meant to parallel the Quran's situation to show how strange it would sound if applied to the Bible.

What is the speaker’s conclusion regarding the Quran and the Bible?

The speaker concludes that if the Quran has the same issues of variant readings and destruction of other versions as the Bible, Muslims should apply the same criticism to the Quran as they do to the Bible, raising questions about its preservation and authenticity.

Outlines

00:00

🤔 Questioning the Validity of the Bible and Quran

The speaker begins by explaining how they were forced to believe that the Bible was corrupted after the coming of Muhammad, due to the revelations in the Quran. They discuss the Quran's acknowledgment of previous scriptures, including the Torah and the Gospel, and how Muhammad was asked to confirm prophecies within them. However, the speaker points out circular reasoning in assuming Muhammad's prophethood and concludes that if the Bible contradicts the Quran, it must have been altered after Muhammad. This leads to the question of why the speaker didn’t consider the opposite — that the Quran may not align with earlier scriptures because it could be incorrect.

05:02

💡 Exploring Faith in the Quran's Divine Origin

The speaker continues by explaining their unwavering belief that the Quran is 100% God's word and contains no human intervention, which made it difficult for them to accept that the Quran might be wrong about God or the scriptures. They further discuss the contradiction between the Quran confirming earlier Jewish and Christian scriptures while at the same time contradicting them. This is likened to Joseph Smith of the Mormon tradition, hinting at the possibility that Muhammad could be considered a fraud if his message contradicts the scriptures he was supposed to confirm.

📜 Manuscripts and the Quran's Authenticity

The speaker acknowledges their lack of deep research into biblical manuscripts or how they were dated at the time they questioned the Bible's integrity. They reference a book called 'The Transmission of the Variant Readings of the Quran' by Shadi Hakim to highlight that even the Quran has variant readings and potential corruptions. The book documents Islamic traditions and Quranic manuscripts, showing that there is no standard Arabic text of the Quran. The speaker uses this to question whether the same scrutiny applied to the Bible should also apply to the Quran.

🤯 The Seven Modes of the Quran and Their Ambiguity

The speaker discusses the concept of the Quran being revealed in seven different modes (known as 'ahruf'), which is still not fully understood by scholars. They refer to Muslim sources that agree on the existence of these modes but admit that no one knows exactly what they are. They further explain how the various readings of the Quran were canonized centuries after Muhammad, leading to confusion about the true form of the Quran. The speaker contrasts this with how people would react if a similar claim were made about the Gospel of John and how Christians would be ridiculed for believing in such an unclear transmission process.

🧐 Comparing Scriptural Transmission and Beliefs

In this final section, the speaker emphasizes the absurdity of believing in a religious text that has undergone such unclear transmission, using an analogy about the Gospel of John being revealed in seven modes, similar to the Quran. They argue that if Christians were to claim something like this, people would find it laughable. However, with the Quran, Muslims view it as a miracle despite its transmission involving multiple variant readings and canonization centuries after Muhammad. The speaker finds it interesting how the Quran is treated differently in this regard.

Keywords

💡Quran

The Quran is the central religious text of Islam, believed to be a revelation from God (Allah) to the Prophet Muhammad. In the script, the speaker discusses the Quran's claim to be 100% divine and unaltered by human hands, which is a central belief in Islam. The script further explores potential contradictions between the Quran and earlier religious texts like the Bible.

💡Bible

The Bible is the holy scripture of Christians, composed of the Old and New Testaments. The speaker discusses perceived contradictions between the Bible and the Quran, especially concerning the claim that Muhammad is a prophet mentioned in the Bible. This conversation highlights the tension between Islamic and Christian views on scriptural authenticity.

💡Muhammad

Muhammad is the founder of Islam, regarded by Muslims as the last prophet sent by Allah. The script discusses the belief that Muhammad's prophethood is confirmed by earlier scriptures, like the Torah and the Bible. The speaker challenges the assumption that the Bible must have been corrupted because it contradicts the Quran's teachings about Muhammad.

💡Prophecy

Prophecy refers to predictions about future events or divine revelations communicated through prophets. The speaker mentions that Muhammad is believed to be prophesied in earlier scriptures like the Torah, which is used as an argument to support his legitimacy as a prophet. The discussion also explores the contradictions in these prophecies between the Bible and the Quran.

💡Corruption of the Bible

The concept of the 'corruption of the Bible' refers to the Islamic belief that the Christian and Jewish scriptures were altered after their original revelation. In the script, the speaker mentions that some Muslims, to reconcile the differences between the Quran and the Bible, believe that the Bible was changed after Muhammad’s time. This idea plays a key role in justifying the contradictions between the two texts.

💡Variant Readings of the Quran

Variant readings refer to differences in textual transmission and recitation of the Quran over time. The speaker discusses the existence of thousands of variant readings in the Quranic manuscripts, challenging the idea that the Quran has been perfectly preserved. This discussion contrasts with the argument that the Bible is corrupt due to similar textual variations.

💡Ahruf and Qira'at

Ahruf and Qira'at refer to modes of recitation of the Quran. The speaker explains that, according to Islamic tradition, the Quran was revealed in seven ahruf (modes), but even Muslim scholars disagree on their meaning. The Qira'at are various readings of the Quran, standardized centuries after Muhammad. The uncertainty surrounding these terms undermines the claim of a perfectly preserved Quran.

💡Uthmanic Codex

The Uthmanic Codex refers to the standardized text of the Quran created under the third Caliph, Uthman ibn Affan, who ordered all other versions of the Quran to be destroyed. This event is discussed to highlight the inconsistencies in the claim that the Quran has always existed in its current form. The speaker draws a parallel to how a Christian might react if similar changes occurred to the Bible.

💡Manuscript Evidence

Manuscript evidence refers to historical documents that verify the contents of religious texts. The speaker points out that manuscript evidence shows that the Jewish and Christian scriptures from before Muhammad’s time are identical to the versions used today. This challenges the idea that these scriptures were corrupted after Muhammad, suggesting instead that it may be the Quran that contains inaccuracies.

💡Circular Reasoning

Circular reasoning is a logical fallacy where the conclusion is assumed in the premise. The speaker accuses the listener of circular reasoning by assuming Muhammad is a prophet and therefore dismissing any contradictions between the Quran and the Bible as proof that the Bible must have been corrupted. This criticism is central to the argument that one should not presuppose the truth of one text over another without evidence.

Highlights

The speaker addresses the assumption that Muhammad is a prophet and the resulting claim that if the Bible contradicts the Quran, the Bible must have been corrupted.

A key point is raised regarding the Quran’s instruction for Muhammad to follow or confirm the scriptures of Jews and Christians, implying their scriptures were unchanged during his time.

The speaker challenges the assumption that the Bible was corrupted after Muhammad, questioning why it’s not assumed that Muhammad was wrong if the Quran contradicts earlier scriptures.

The Quran confirms that Allah sent the Torah and Gospel, and Muhammad asked the Jews to confirm his prophethood based on their scriptures.

The speaker raises a historical argument that manuscripts of the Bible from before Muhammad’s time are identical to what exists today, challenging the claim of corruption.

The discussion shifts to the speaker’s past belief in the Quran as 100% the word of God, without human intervention, which prevented him from questioning its claims.

The concept of circular reasoning is highlighted: assuming the Quran is correct and the Bible is corrupted based on that assumption without examining historical evidence.

The speaker introduces Shadi Hakimat Nassar’s PhD dissertation on the transmission of variant readings of the Quran, suggesting the Quran itself has been subject to corruption.

Muslim scholars have identified thousands of variant readings in Quranic manuscripts, raising questions about the Quran’s preservation.

The speaker discusses the Islamic tradition of the 'Saba ahruf' (seven modes of recitation), noting that no clear understanding of what this term means has been established.

Muslim scholars unanimously agree that the 'Saba ahruf' are not the same as the seven canonical Quranic readings, which were canonized 300 years after Muhammad.

The notion of the 'Saba ahruf' remains vague, and no accurate translation of the term exists, creating a mystery around early Quranic recitation.

The speaker draws a comparison between the Quran’s variant readings and the Gospel of John, using a hypothetical scenario to show the inconsistency in applying preservation standards.

Uthman, a companion of Muhammad, standardized one mode of the Quran by destroying other versions, creating a single codex which still resulted in multiple variant readings.

The speaker suggests that if Christians had done something similar with the Bible, Muslims would find it laughable, yet many Muslims accept this practice with the Quran as miraculous.

Transcripts

but I was um like I was forced to take

the belief that um like the Bible had to

have been corrupted after Muhammad

because of the because of the

revelations of the Quran that Allah sent

um the Torah and the gospel and Allah

um even asked them

um even as the prophet Muhammad to like

go go to the Jews to confirm that he is

indeed a prophet and that there are

Prophecies of him in the in the Torah

but did you catch it that you're doing

what's known as circular reasoning you

assume Muhammad is a prophet therefore

if my Bible contradicts the Quran that

means the Bible has changed after

Muhammad why did you assume that why

didn't you assume the opposite since the

Quran tells Muhammad to follow the

scripture or confirm the scripture that

the Jews and Christians had in their

possession and the manuscript evidence

shows that the only scriptures they have

is what we have today because your Bible

is translated from those manuscripts

then Muhammad is a frog why did this is

the reverse

um because

um I was like I believe that the Quran

was uh 100 God's word that um there's no

human like intervention and in any way

that it's 100 from God and so it cannot

be wrong about what it says about

um who God is and you know like um and

like um what the scriptures are what if

the Quran tells you one of the signs

that Muhammad is a prophet or not is

that he confirms the scriptures of the

Jews and Christians and then you go to

the Jews and Christians and see their

scriptures and he can contradicts them

that means he's a fraud it's like Joseph

Smith

yeah that's why I said the but that's

why I said the Torah had to have been

corrupted after like um Prophet Muhammad

yeah so what do you do with the fact you

have manuscripts before the time of

Muhammad that are identical to what we

have today

for example um I haven't I I and like um

during that time when I was questioning

this um I didn't really look um that

deep into like um manuscripts and how

they did um carbon dating and how they

how they dated this manuscripts so I

just um I just put it in the back of my

mind and didn't really take much of it

you see this book that I'm holding up

right here yeah okay if you can afford

it get it it's called the transmission

of the variant readings of the Quran

this is why a Muslim this is his PhD

dissertation by Shadi hakimat NASA he he

surveys the Islamic traditions and The

Chronic manuscripts and he shows from

the Islamic Traditions bukhari Muslim

other sources and your chronic

manuscripts your Quran has thousands of

variant readings and Corruptions you

don't have a standard Arabic text so if

you use your argument against the Bible

consistently should you now reject the

Quran I mean I'm going to be doing a

session on this and quoting his

referencing Muslim sources for example

here let me just show you something what

he says here and we're going to get back

to the point of Jesus's deity but have

you heard of the Saba El AG

I have our time with the H in Arabic so

forgive me According to Islamic

tradition the Quran supposedly was

revealed revealed in seven what they

call

that's the plural of half to this day no

muslim knows what Muhammad meant what

did he mean by a roof let me read it to

you 15 to 17 of the book right here and

this is all from Muslim sources

Scholars here but let me stream stuff

that Muslim Scholars know but they will

deceive you here you go here's its

subtitle so you know and I even

underlined it I don't know if you can

see it it's you see anyway you see that

it says

the seven modes right

yeah okay now let me read the only

legitimacy for the existence of variant

breedings of the Quran is the prophetic

tradition which speaks of the Sabbath

there exists a huge uncertainty

regarding the term

an uncertainty that sometimes amounts to

a mystery until now until now no

reasonable explanation has been offered

for the exact meaning of the Sabbath

enumerates 35 different interpretations

of the Sabbath tradition ranging from

linguistic to esoteric interpretations

Muslim Scholars however unanimously

unanimously meaning they all agree that

the Sabbath are not El pirate not the

seven quranic readings that you have

today because today you have what's

known as the perat of the Quran those

are seven different Arabic readings of

the uthmanic texts that have two urawi

two people transmitting it for a total

14 and then they add three others for a

total of ten which were canonized by IBN

mujahid in the 10th Century that's what

Muhammad is 7th Century so about 300

years later but anyway he's saying that

the

kirat of today okay so and they go the

Muslims unanimously agree that the

Sabbath are not

which were collected and canonized by

IBN mujahid the year 936 A.D according

to them only the ignorant masses

of the prophetic tradition to be the

seventh canonical readings this issue

will be discussed in more detail in the

second chapter of this book now since

the notion of the Sabbath was and still

is vague they don't know what it means

an accurate translation of the term is

almost impossible do you hear that uh

yep it's almost impossible to translate

what it means since we actually do not

not know do not know what is meant by

harf we don't know so if I were to tell

you and if I read the Hadith it's going

to get Troublesome but I don't want to

focus on the Quran yet unless you want

me to do but if I were to tell you hey

the Gospel of John was revealed in seven

they'll say it I have our time with the

age so forgive me for that just certain

words I can't pronounce because of my

speech problem okay the Gospel of John

was revealed in seven but we don't know

what those are and then later on one of

John's companions destroyed six of them

and standardized only one of them one

half because that's what uthman did when

he destroyed all the other masaheb the

codices of the Quran it says that he

standardized one half and that one

standardization by companion of John

it's come down to us through multiple

variant readings of that one and then

300 years later some Christian decided

to standardize seven out of those

multiple ways of reading the Gospel of

John and then some other Scholars added

three to that list what would you say to

a Christian would you laugh at us and

say and you still believe the Bible's

preserved um yeah probably and yet with

the Quran you say it's a miracle

interesting