Ibram X. Kendi on “How to Be an Antiracist” | Amanpour and Company
Summary
TLDRIn this interview, Dr. Ibram X. Kendi discusses the importance of being actively anti-racist rather than passively non-racist. He argues that racism is not just about ignorance but can be driven by political self-interest. Kendi, who has battled cancer, draws parallels between fighting racism and fighting cancer, emphasizing the need for both local and systemic treatments to address societal inequities. He advocates for acknowledging the problem, removing racist policies, and implementing anti-racist policies to prevent the reoccurrence of racial inequity.
Takeaways
- 🔍 The guest, Abram X. Kendi, discusses the importance of being actively anti-racist rather than passively non-racist, emphasizing that there's no neutral ground in the fight against racism.
- 📊 Kendi highlights the political context of the U.S. elections, noting that moderate Democratic nominees might not be as effective against Trump as progressive candidates, due to the appeal of change agents in recent elections.
- 👥 He identifies two types of swing voters: those who swing from Republican to Democrat and those who swing between voting Democrat and not voting at all, with the latter group being more likely to support progressive policies.
- 📚 Kendi's book, 'How to Be an Anti-Racist', argues that racism is not just about ignorant beliefs but can also stem from political self-interest and the need to justify discriminatory policies.
- 🚫 He challenges the common misconception that racism comes from ignorance, suggesting that it can be a deliberate tool used to maintain power and suppress certain groups.
- 🌟 The interviewee points out the historical and ongoing use of racist ideas to justify voter suppression tactics, particularly targeting people of color.
- 💡 Kendi discusses the concept of reverse racism and how it's been used to create a divisive narrative, emphasizing the need to define policies as racist based on their outcomes, not just intentions.
- 🌱 He shares a personal story from the 1990s when he internalized negative stereotypes about black youth, illustrating how societal messages can shape individual beliefs.
- ⚖️ The conversation touches on the parallels between fighting cancer and fighting racism, suggesting that both require acknowledging the problem, targeted treatment, and systemic changes to prevent recurrence.
- 💪 Kendi's personal battle with cancer influenced his writing, giving him a sense of urgency to complete his book and a deeper understanding of the need for proactive measures against systemic issues like racism.
Q & A
What is the main argument of Ibram X. Kendi regarding racism?
-Ibram X. Kendi argues that not being racist is not enough; one must actively be anti-racist. He emphasizes that there is no neutrality in the struggle against racism and that one either endorses racial hierarchy or racial equality.
Why does Kendi believe a moderate Democratic nominee might ensure Trump's re-election?
-Kendi suggests that a moderate Democratic nominee might not appeal to certain swing voters who are more likely to be attracted to a progressive candidate. He points out that Trump was successful in winning over some white working-class voters who desired more liberal policies than Obama, suggesting that a progressive candidate could win over these voters and potentially some of the white swing voters as well.
How does Kendi differentiate between a racist and an anti-racist?
-Kendi differentiates by stating that a racist endorses the idea of racial hierarchy or believes problems are rooted in racial groups, while an anti-racist supports racial equality or locates the roots of problems in power and policies. He asserts that one either allows racial inequities to persist or confronts them.
What commonality does Kendi find between Trump's and Obama's candidacies?
-Kendi notes that both Trump and Obama presented themselves as change agents, not necessarily as total outsiders, but as figures who could bring about transformation. This branding as agents of change was a significant factor in their electoral success.
How does Kendi suggest that racism is not just a result of ignorance?
-Kendi points out that racism can be driven by political self-interest, such as the Republican Party's support for voter suppression policies. These policies are justified by racist ideas, which are then consumed by the public, leading to a belief in the validity of these racist justifications.
What does Kendi propose as a method to combat racism?
-Kendi suggests that combating racism involves acknowledging its existence, similar to diagnosing an illness. He advocates for the surgical removal of racist policies, followed by systemic treatments like anti-racist policies to prevent reoccurrence, and continuous vigilance to ensure equity and justice.
How does Kendi's personal battle with cancer influence his views on fighting racism?
-Kendi's experience with cancer has given him clarity on the fight against both cancer and racism. He compares the process of acknowledging a cancer diagnosis to recognizing the presence of racism, and the treatments used for cancer to the strategies needed to combat systemic racism.
What was Kendi's perspective on black youth during the 1990s?
-In the 1990s, Kendi internalized negative stereotypes about black youth, believing that there was something wrong with the group as a whole. He later recognized this as a mistake, understanding that the problems faced by black youth were structural and not inherent to the group.
How does Kendi define a policy as racist?
-Kendi defines a policy as racist based on its outcome. If a policy leads to inequity and injustice, he considers it racist, regardless of whether it contains racial language or the intent of the policymaker.
What does Kendi suggest is the role of the individual in being anti-racist?
-Kendi suggests that individuals should actively confront racial inequities and support policies that lead to equity and justice. He emphasizes that being anti-racist is an ongoing process that requires continuous action and self-reflection.
Outlines
🗳️ Political Context and Swing Voters
The first paragraph delves into the political landscape, focusing on the fear of a moderate Democratic nominee leading to Trump's re-election. The guest, Abram X. Kendi, discusses two types of swing voters: those transitioning from Republican to Democrat, particularly white working-class voters who are more likely to support Trump due to his cultural and racial appeal; and those swinging between voting Democrat and not voting at all, often younger and people of color who favor progressive policies. Kendi emphasizes the importance of a progressive candidate to engage these voters. The conversation also touches on the success of change agents like Trump and Obama, who positioned themselves as agents of transformation, and the critical role of change in recent presidential elections.
📚 The Distinction Between Not Being Racist and Being Anti-Racist
In the second paragraph, Kendi clarifies the difference between being 'not racist' and being 'anti-racist'. He argues that claiming to be 'not racist' implies a false neutrality, which he refutes by stating that in the struggle against racism, one must either support racial hierarchy (being racist) or racial equality (being anti-racist). Kendi challenges the notion that racism is based on ignorance, suggesting that it can also stem from political self-interest, as seen in voter suppression policies. He also addresses the misconception of 'anti-white racism' and the importance of defining policies as racist based on their outcomes, not just their intent or language.
🏥 Personal Struggle with Cancer and Analogy to Fighting Racism
The third paragraph is deeply personal, as Kendi discusses his battle with stage 4 colon cancer and how it influenced his writing of 'How to Be an Anti-Racist'. His diagnosis led to a shift in focus from internal conflict to a determination to complete his work. He reflects on a speech he gave in the 1990s, filled with anti-black sentiments influenced by the racial narratives of the time. Kendi's journey from consuming these ideas to critically examining and rejecting them is central to his advocacy for anti-racism. He draws a parallel between fighting cancer and fighting racism, emphasizing the need for both local and systemic interventions to address and prevent recurrence.
🛡️ Strategies for Combating Metastatic Racism
In the final paragraph, Kendi extends the cancer analogy to discuss strategies for combating 'metastatic racism', which has spread throughout society. He stresses the importance of acknowledging the existence of racism as the first step towards healing. Kendi outlines a multifaceted approach involving the surgical removal of racist policies, systemic treatments like anti-racist policies to address unseen inequities, and vigilant monitoring to prevent reoccurrence. He concludes by encouraging individuals to lead anti-racist lives, akin to maintaining a healthy lifestyle to prevent cancer recurrence.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Anti-Racism
💡Swing Voters
💡White Working-Class Voters
💡Progressive Policies
💡Change Agents
💡Racial Hierarchy
💡Voter Suppression
💡Metastatic Cancer
💡Racial Inequity
💡Affirmative Action
Highlights
Abram X. Kendi argues that being 'not racist' is insufficient; we must actively be anti-racist.
Kendi is the founding director of the Anti-Racism Research and Policy Center and has written a book on anti-racism.
He discusses the political context of the U.S. elections and the fear of a moderate Democratic nominee leading to Trump's re-election.
Kendi identifies two major sets of swing voters: those swinging from Republican to Democrat and those swinging between voting Democrat and not voting at all.
Trump's appeal to white working-class voters and the perception of sharing their cultural and racial ideas is highlighted.
The importance of a progressive candidate in winning over swing voters and a portion of white voters is emphasized.
Kendi draws a parallel between Trump's and Obama's campaigns as both positioned themselves as change agents.
He criticizes the notion of being 'not racist' as a claim of neutrality, which he argues is a mask for racism.
Kendi explains that racism is not about being a bad person but about the policies and ideas that one supports.
He challenges the idea that racism is solely driven by ignorance, suggesting that political self-interest can also be a motivator.
Kendi discusses voter suppression policies and how they are justified by racist ideas, even when they are driven by political self-interest.
The concept of 'anti-white racism' as a divisive narrative and its historical context is explored.
Kendi suggests defining policies as racist based on their outcomes, not just their intent or language.
He shares a personal story from the 1990s about internalizing negative beliefs about black youth and his journey away from those ideas.
Kendi's diagnosis with stage 4 colon cancer and how it influenced his writing and perspective on fighting racism is discussed.
The analogy between fighting metastatic cancer and fighting metastatic racism, including acknowledging the problem, local and systemic treatment, and prevention of recurrence, is made.
Transcripts
our next guest argues that not being
racist is not enough we must actively be
anti-racist Abram candy has written a
book about that and he is also the
founding director of the anti racism
research and policy center
he joins our hari Sreenivasan for a
candid conversation about how his battle
with cancer shaped his views of
prejudice but they started by talking
about the political context you've
watched Iowa you've watched New
Hampshire and you recently wrote before
these contests why I fear a moderate
Democratic nominee some Democrats are
afraid of nominating a progressive but a
moderate may be more likely to ensure
Trump's reelection why well it seems to
me they're two major sets of swing
voters and one of the swing voters were
talking about and those are swing voters
who are swinging from Republican to
Democrat and when you actually look at
the data on these specific voters you
actually see for instance that that
Trump won about 20% of white white
working-class voters who are liberal and
he also won about 38% of white
working-class voters who wanted policies
more liberal than Obama
and so part of his pitch is to the white
working-class making this case that not
only does he share their cultural and
racial ideas but he's also presumably
compared to a moderate more progressive
that's how he saw in pitching himself
particularly as relates to foreign
policy and more domestic policy the
other side is the what I call the other
swing voter and and these are voters who
are swinging between voting Democrat and
not voting at all and when we look at
this population again I'm not speaking
about people who never vote I'm talking
about people sometimes vote and
sometimes they came out for Obama
precisely they came out for Obama and
then they did not come out in 2016 for
Hillary Clinton and then some of them
voted in 2018 election when when you
look at this group they are
predominantly younger and they're
predominantly people of color and
they're especially young black voters
and then when you look at that
specific group of voters they're more
likely to favor progressive policies and
and so then it seems to me that a more
progressive candidate will actually be
able to win those other swing voters and
then even a portion of white swing
voters as well there also seems to be a
commonality that you point out between
why Trump's candidacy and Obama's
candidate candidacy succeeded in that
they were approaching things not
necessarily as total outsiders but
change agents without question I mean
that was their pitch that was their
brand that was in a sense that the
campaign obviously Trump's campaign was
to make America great again
right and if we actually think about
Obama's sort of three word sort of
slogan yes we can one of the things I
did in the piece is I put that together
yes we can make America great again this
is it this is an idea of transformation
and the reason why I was critical is
because Obama cast himself as a change
agent in contrast to obviously a Mitt
Romney and in 2012 who he argued was
more of an establishment sort of figure
by account by you know in the same
comparison Trump presented himself as a
change agent in contrast to presenting
Hillary Clinton as an establishment
figure and so in the last really three
election cycles for president it's been
the change agents who's been calling for
massive amounts of change who've
actually been more likely to excite
voters you wrote a book recently
literally a how-to book how to be an
anti-racist not a non racist I want you
to read just this passage here from near
the front of the book what the
difference is sure so this is from the
introduction what's the problem with
being not racist it is a claim that
signifies neutrality I am NOT a racist
but neither am i aggressively against
racism but there is no neutrality in the
racism struggle the opposite of racist
is
not racist it is anti-racist what is the
difference
one either endorses the idea of racial
hierarchy as a racist or racial equality
as an anti-racist one either believes
problems are rooted in groups of people
as a racist or locates the roots of
problems in power and policies as an
anti-racist one either allows racial
inequities to persevere as a racist or
confronts racial inequities as an
anti-racist there is no in-between safe
space of not racist the claim of not
racist neutrality is a mask for racism
so there is no middle ground that's
pretty clear in what you're talking
about you're trying to sort of take away
what has now been called the r-word you
know a pejorative almost a slur right
and putting it back into in linguistic
perspective the descriptor that it is
and you really want people to start to
focus on the ideas and acts instead of
just the people right yeah I mean I
think many Americans say that they're
not racist because they believe and have
been taught really that a racist is
essentially a bad person that if you
admit you're racist you'll always be a
racist and that's like tattooing the R
word on your forehead and that you have
we apparently have racist bones in our
bodies which allows some presidential
candidates Republicans and Democrats to
say I don't have a racist bone in my
body what that means is that this is an
essential term you become a racist and
what I argue in show in my work is no
one becomes a racist or even an
anti-racist it is a reflection of what a
person is doing in each moment and
people change and so if in one moment a
person is saying that a particular
racial group is inferior they're being
racist if in the very next moment
they're supporting a policy that's
leading to equity and justice did being
anti-racist and there's so many people
with both racist and anti-racist ideas
who support racist and anti-racist
policies and and because of that we
can't label them one of the other
permanently right we can only say what
their being in each moment you point out
that a in your view that it doesn't
racism doesn't necessarily come from
just ignorant that there are other
drivers what are other motivations
besides ignorance so I think we're
living in a perfect example in which for
instance the Republican Party in many
cases because they've decided to not
open up their tent to to people of color
the demographics of the of the country
are moving away from them and so when
you don't have enough votes to win
there's only one alternative you
suppress votes you figure out ways to
suppress the votes of your political
opponents and so Republicans in many
cases have supported voter suppression
policies from voter ID laws to be
purging of voters from voter rolls but
then they had to have a justification
for those policies that they instituted
out of self-interest and that sort of
that justification was racist ideas they
had to claim that these voters of color
in Philadelphia and Cleveland in in
Phoenix are actually fraudulent that
they're essentially corrupting the the
voting process there's this long history
of classifying voters of color as
corrupt in in white voters as of course
not corrupt and and so then they had to
create a justification for that and that
justification was racist idea so you
essentially had the political
self-interest leading to these racist
voter suppression policies and in the
proper policies leading to racist ideas
to justify them and then you had regular
overt Americans who consumed those
racist ideas did not know they were
being manipulated and started believing
that there was a mass problem of voter
fraud there's also this through line of
anti-white racism as a justification of
been around since forever I'm sure that
you're the civil rights era more
recently but it's popular it's also
something that creates a sort of
divisive Nasima today how do you become
an anti-racist in that context I think
part of the sort of preponderance in
recent decades of this notion of reverse
discrimination as it was before and now
more anti-white racism such that a few
years ago the majority of white
Americans stated that white people were
more likely to be discriminated against
in any other group I think that stems
from how people are conceiving of and
defining a racist policy so typically
Americans of all races tend to define a
policy is racist or even discriminatory
based on weather has racial language in
the policy or based on the intent of the
policymaker not the outcome and so if we
were to define racist policies as racist
by their outcome what we would then see
is the outcome of all of these part of
many of these policies are white people
being on the higher end of those
outcomes but again if we are if we're
determining by the actual policy itself
and that then allows or what American to
say well you know isn't for instance
affirmative action anti white and then
that would cause people like me to say
well is it a standardized test set of
policies anti-black because then the
outcome it's leading to racial
disparities where white people are on
the higher end and so I think that one
of the things that all Americans need to
realize is that we should be defining
policies as racist based on their
outcome if a policy is leading to
inequity and injustice then it's racist
and and I think you have many white
Americans who are not actually on the
lower end of these policies the other
side of this that's very critical is you
actually do have policies that are
harming white Americans
that are harming white Americans
disproportionately and some of those
policies white Americans actually
supported so they give an example the
rollback on on gun control policies and
in several states has actually led to a
spike in white male suicides by handgun
so while you're writing this book just
before your wife goes through cancer
your mom has cancer and while you're
writing this you get diagnosed with
stage 4 colon cancer how does that
change the process for you what you were
thinking about how you're writing well I
think it changes a lot I mean I I think
it was very difficult for me to write
this book and I think it was difficult
because many ways the the book is
anchored on my own personal story my own
sort of personal story of in the 90s
consuming all this anti blackness all
these beliefs that I had that there was
something wrong with black people
and then you know my story of
essentially journeying away from those
earlier ideas and obviously as a black
person it was very shameful and painful
for me to admit and chronicle those
ideas and so I was in a way fighting
myself when I was writing the first five
chapters of the book but then I was
diagnosed with cancer with stage four
colon cancer and then at that point I
was like I just want to finish I you
know I don't even know whether I'll see
it to you know being published I just
want to finish and so then all of that
anxiety all of that fighting with myself
all of that Shane went away and I was
focused on writing so you write this
passage it'd be 20 years ago that you're
giving this speech an MLK Day and now
when you look back at that speech what
do you see in yourself that was off so I
I think what happened was I came of age
in the 1990s and if there was ever a
decade in American history when black
youth were considered America's racial
problem
it was the 1990s and until black youth
were constantly sort of degraded and
denigrated and we were told that we were
too violent we were told that we didn't
value education we were told we were
having too many babies out of wedlock we
were told all different types of things
about what was wrong with us as a group
and and as a decade went on I consumed
many of those ideas without even
realizing it and ultimately when I gave
that speech 20 years ago I expressed
many of those ideas and you know the
whole speech for the most part was about
all the things wrong with black youth
and how Martin Luther King jr. would be
very angry with black youth because of
all the things we're doing wrong because
we're not living up to his dream here in
high school at this time I was a senior
in high school and and of course we're
calling that you know I'm filled with
shame because you know I should have
realized or I should have been taught
that no there actually was not something
wrong as a group with black youth as a
group and there was everything wrong
with what black youth were facing they
were facing the highest rates of
unemployment in the 90s they were facing
the highest rates of incarceration they
were facing all these structural
problems that were harming them they
were being ensnared as opposed to the
them ensnaring the country in the last
chapter of your book you talk about this
intermingling of your understanding of
both racism and cancer and that there
are ways to fight racism like there are
ways to fight cancer how did this change
your thinking I think it gave me a
tremendous amount of clarity on the
relationship between cancer and racism
and how we can fight cancer and racism
and especially metastatic cancer and
metastatic racism that spread to every
part of our body politic I think the
first step with both is acknowledging
the diagnosis you know acknowledging
it's very very hard you know
particularly when you use someone like
me it was my mid 30s you know I didn't
smoke and drink I was I was a vegan
and someone in coming into
I have stage 4 colon carry our for me to
accept because I thought I was healthy
just as many Americans who feel that
they've been doing right by let's say
people of color it's it's very hard for
him to accept the diagnosis that they
too are being racist but that first step
of acknowledging the diagnosis is
critical because how can we go about
healing right if we don't even admit
that there is a problem and so I think
after we get past that then we can
actually go after racism how we go after
metastatic cancer which is a local and a
systemic treatment the the local
treatment is literally going in and
removing surgically removing the racist
policies from our institutions from our
communities in the way surgeons remove
surgically the tumors but then they
don't stop there
they then flood the body with systemic
treatment which is chemotherapy and
increasing the immunotherapy which is to
reduce the cancer cells they can't see
which is to protect against a
reoccurrence of cancer in the same way
we could flood the body with anti-racist
policies that literally can eliminate
the remaining sort of tumor cells of
inequity that can protect against the
reoccurrence and then doctors don't stop
there
they they they then make sure they watch
and follow the body very closely to
ensure that there's not going to be a
reoccurrence and then there when there
is a reoccurrence what do they do they
aggressively treat all the while they're
encouraging the the cancer survivor to
eat well right to exercise which is
equivalent to essentially you know
thinking and and recognizing the world
from an anti-racist standpoint you know
recognizing that there should not be any
inequities because the racial groups are
equals eeprom Kennedy thanks so much
you're welcome
[Music]
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