Israel's state terror strategy: Max Blumenthal and Ilan Pappe

Summary

The video features a discussion on the Israel-Palestine conflict, focusing on the historical context of Zionism and the formation of Israel. It delves into the impact of the Israel Lobby on US foreign policy, the role of the US and UK in the region, and the influence of Christian Zionism. The conversation also addresses recent student protests, the changing dynamics within American political views on Israel, and the potential indicators of the decline of the Zionist project, including internal Israeli societal divisions and economic challenges.

Takeaways

• 📚 The book 'The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine' by Ilan Pappe is highlighted as a crucial read for understanding the Israel-Palestine conflict, with its detailed historical context on Zionism.
• 🏭 The early Zionist movement's labor unions, influenced by figures like David Ben-Gurion, pursued policies of economic boycott and violence against Jewish businesses employing Palestinian labor, reflecting early segregationist ideologies.
• 🛑 Post-1948, Israel implemented a 'siege policy' on Gaza, establishing a cordon around the strip and creating Jewish-only communities to contain the Palestinian population, mirroring apartheid practices.
• 🔥 The Israeli military's approach to Gaza has been likened to open warfare, with tactics such as the use of F-16 jets and the leveling of entire neighborhoods, indicating a policy of state terror.
• 📜 Academics from Zionist backgrounds have played a role in devising policies that justify the targeting of civilians in Gaza, effectively creating a legal framework for actions that could be considered genocidal.
• 🏰 The 'Hannibal Directive', a controversial policy allowing for the use of lethal force to prevent the capture of Israeli soldiers, has led to the targeting of Israeli citizens, demonstrating the dehumanization inherent in Israeli military strategy.
• 🌐 The discussion emphasizes 'Global Israel', suggesting that the power and policies of the Israeli state are supported by a broad international coalition, including the US and UK, which has significant influence on policy.
• 💵 The economic interests of the US, particularly the military-industrial complex, are intertwined with Israel, suggesting a financial motivation for continued support despite potential strategic liabilities.
• 🔍 There is a noted generational shift in perspectives on Israel within the US, especially among younger Americans and Jews, which could indicate a weakening of the traditional Zionist consensus.
• ⏳ The speakers suggest that the current phase of the Zionist project may be its last, pointing to internal divisions within Israeli society, economic challenges, and growing international opposition as indicators of potential decline.

Q & A

What is the significance of 'The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine' by Ilan Pape in understanding the Israel-Palestine conflict?

The book 'The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine' by Ilan Pape is considered a formative read as it helps reinforce the understanding of Zionism and the Israel-Palestine crisis. It provides historical details and outlines the broader policy of the Israeli state towards Palestinians, which is crucial for anyone looking to understand the roots of the conflict.

How does the concept of 'hafr' or separation relate to the early Zionist movement and its impact on Palestinians?

The concept of 'hafr' or separation was advocated by the labor movement in early Zionism, which sought to create a Jewish majority state. This led to policies that aimed at the demographic engineering of Israel, resulting in the segregation and displacement of Palestinians, as well as the establishment of Jewish-only communities.

What was the role of the Histadrut in the early Zionist movement and how did it contribute to the dispossession of Palestinians?

The Histadrut, the main labor union of Labor Zionism, played a significant role in the early Zionist movement by initiating boycotts of Jewish businesses that employed Palestinians as cheap labor. It also supported the establishment of Jewish-only communities, which contributed to the dispossession of Palestinians from their lands.

Can you explain the term 'Gaza envelope' and its historical context mentioned in the transcript?

The 'Gaza envelope' refers to the area around the Gaza Strip that was controlled by Israel after the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. It was established to place a human wall around the Gaza Strip, effectively isolating it and beginning the process of what would later be known as the Gaza blockade.

What is the 'Hannibal Directive' mentioned in the transcript and why is it controversial?

The 'Hannibal Directive' is a controversial Israeli military protocol that allows for extreme measures, including the use of lethal force, to prevent the capture of Israeli soldiers. It is controversial because it can lead to the killing of Israeli soldiers and civilians in attempts to avoid hostage situations, which some argue violates the principles of proportionality and distinction in international law.

How does the speaker in the transcript connect the current situation in Gaza with historical policies of the Israeli state?

The speaker connects the current situation in Gaza with historical policies by outlining a continuum of actions taken by the Israeli state since the pre-state era of Zionism. These include the establishment of Jewish-only communities, the siege of Gaza, and the use of State Terror tactics, all aimed at maintaining a Jewish demographic majority and controlling Palestinian populations.

What is the significance of the 'dalia doctrine' in the context of Israeli military strategy as discussed in the transcript?

The 'dalia doctrine' refers to the Israeli military strategy of targeting civilian areas and infrastructure to exert pressure on the population, with the aim of turning them against resistance groups. It is named after the 2006 Lebanon war, where entire neighborhoods were targeted, and it signifies a shift towards formalizing state terror tactics in Israeli military operations.

How does the speaker describe the role of the United States in relation to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

The speaker describes the United States as a key supporter of Israel, providing diplomatic cover, military aid, and political support that enables Israel's policies towards Palestinians. The U.S. is criticized for authorizing significant military aid to Israel, which is seen as enabling the continuation of State Terror tactics against Palestinians.

What does the term 'Global Israel' or 'Global Zionism' refer to as used in the transcript?

The term 'Global Israel' or 'Global Zionism' refers to the international network of support for the state of Israel, which includes political, economic, and military alliances, as well as the influence of Zionist lobbies and organizations worldwide. This global support is seen as crucial for the realization and continuation of the Zionist project in Palestine.

How does the speaker view the current state of the Zionist project and its future?

The speaker views the current state of the Zionist project as being in its final days, with multiple indicators suggesting its decline. These include internal divisions within Israeli society, economic challenges, growing international isolation, and a shift in the political landscape, particularly among younger generations. The speaker suggests that these factors, along with the resilience of the Palestinian people, will contribute to the eventual end of the Zionist project.

Outlines

00:00

📚 Historical Context of Zionism and Israel-Palestine Crisis

The speaker begins by acknowledging the contributions of Jade and AA, and expresses gratitude for the opportunity to discuss with Elon. They reflect on their first encounter and the influence of 'The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine' by Ilan Pape on their understanding of Zionism and the Israel-Palestine conflict. The speaker emphasizes the importance of this book as a foundational text, especially in light of Israel's ongoing efforts to complete the project started in 1948. They delve into the pre-state era of Zionism, discussing the Zionist colonial project's impact on places like Jaffa, the role of the Histadrut labor union, and the tensions between different Zionist factions. The narrative continues with the post-1948 policies of the Israeli state, including the establishment of a 'human wall' around Gaza and the development of exclusively Jewish communities, which contributed to the demographic engineering of a Jewish majority state. The speaker concludes this paragraph by discussing the broader policy outlines towards Gaza and the anticipation of Elon providing historical details.

05:03

🏭 Colonialism and State Terror in Zionism

The speaker further explores the colonial roots of Zionism, focusing on the necessity of military force for settlement and development as illustrated by Moshe Dayan's eulogy for a fallen guard. They discuss the labor movement's goal of separation and the use of State Terror tactics like the 'broken bones policy' during the first intifada. The narrative moves to the Oslo Accords and the intent behind them, which was to remove Palestinian laborers from Israel and create a separation barrier. The speaker also addresses the provocations by Israeli governments to incite violence and the subsequent policies that treated Gaza as a war zone, allowing for the use of extreme military force. Academic contributions to these policies are highlighted, including the 'Dahia Doctrine', which formalized the approach to targeting civilian populations to pressure them into turning against resistance movements. The paragraph concludes with a reflection on the testimonies and observations of the speaker regarding the 2014 Gaza war and the potential for future conflict.

Keywords

💡Zionism

Zionism refers to the nationalist movement that supports the establishment of a Jewish homeland in the territory defined as the historic Land of Israel. In the video, it is discussed critically, with the speakers highlighting its historical and contemporary implications on the Israel-Palestine conflict. The term is used to describe the ideological basis for the establishment of the State of Israel and its policies towards Palestinians, including what the speakers describe as 'ethnic cleansing' and 'State Terror'.

💡State Terror

State Terror is a concept where a government uses violence and intimidation against its own populace or against another state's citizens to achieve its political objectives. The video discusses this in the context of Israeli policies towards Gaza and the West Bank, suggesting that the Israeli state has employed terror tactics to suppress Palestinian resistance and maintain control over disputed territories.

💡Ethnic Cleansing

Ethnic Cleansing is the forced removal of an ethnic or religious group from a given territory. In the video, this term is used to describe the historical and ongoing displacement of Palestinians from their lands, allegedly as part of a broader Zionist project to create a Jewish-majority state.

💡Settlements

Settlements refer to the communities established by Israelis in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, which are considered occupied territories under international law. The video discusses how these settlements are part of a strategy to alter the demographic balance in the region and make the creation of a Palestinian state unfeasible.

💡Siege of Gaza

The Siege of Gaza refers to the economic and military blockade imposed by Israel and Egypt on the Gaza Strip since 2007. The video describes the siege as a form of collective punishment and a means to exert control over the population and further the Israeli state's objectives in the region.

💡Hannibal Directive

The Hannibal Directive is an Israeli military protocol that allows for extreme measures, including the use of lethal force, to prevent the capture of Israeli soldiers. The video discusses this directive as an example of how the Israeli military is willing to risk the lives of its own soldiers to avoid political concessions or negotiations with Palestinian groups.

💡Demographic Engineering

Demographic Engineering refers to the intentional manipulation of population numbers or distribution to achieve certain political, social, or economic objectives. In the video, this concept is used to describe Israeli policies aimed at maintaining a Jewish majority in Israel and the territories it controls, often at the expense of Palestinian rights and aspirations.

💡Apartheid

Apartheid is a system of institutionalized racial segregation and discrimination. The term is used in the video to describe the conditions faced by Palestinians under Israeli control, suggesting that the policies and practices of the Israeli state bear similarities to the former South African regime's racial policies.

💡International Alliance

International Alliance in this context refers to the coalition of countries and entities that support the State of Israel, particularly the United States and various Christian and Jewish lobbies. The video argues that this alliance provides political, economic, and military support that enables Israel to pursue its policies towards Palestinians.

💡Dehumanization

Dehumanization is the act of depriving a person or group of their humanity. In the video, this concept is used to criticize the ways in which Palestinians are portrayed and treated by the Israeli state and its supporters, suggesting that such dehumanization facilitates policies of violence and discrimination.

Highlights

Elon Pape's book, 'The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine', is recommended as a crucial read for understanding Zionism and the Israel-Palestine crisis.

The Israeli policy towards Gaza is rooted in the pre-state era of Zionism and the Zionist colonial project.

The Histadrut, the labor union of Labor Zionism, initiated boycotts and attacks on Jewish businesses employing Palestinians.

The concept of 'hafrada' or separation, apartheid, and segregation was central to the Zionist project.

The Israeli state, controlled by the labor movement, placed a human wall around the Gaza Strip post-1948.

The Israeli military's approach to Gaza has been influenced by the need for constant State Terror to maintain control.

The Oslo Accords were aimed at removing Palestinian laborers from Tel Aviv, part of a broader ethnic cleansing policy.

The construction of the apartheid wall and siege policy around Gaza are tactics to separate and control the population.

Academics from the labor Zionist movement have helped devise policies that lead to the killing of civilians in Gaza.

The 'Dahia Doctrine' formalizes state terror, allowing the targeting of entire neighborhoods and cities.

The Israeli military's use of technology, such as the Lavender AI system, raises concerns about

Transcripts

thanks a lot Jade and AA and um it's

great to see you again

Elon

um we uh first met a few years ago and I

guess you're it was at a different time

so you were able to just cruise on into

the United States um Elon pape's book

the ethnic cleansing of Palestine was a

formative read for me it really helped

reinforce my understanding of Zionism of

the Israel Palestine crisis and couldn't

recommend it more as a primer for

everyone watching I mean if there's one

book to read now it's that uh because

what Israel is attempting to do is to

finish

1948 what they began uh it was an it's

it's been an unfinished project against

Massive Resistance including resistance

from many of you who are tuning in right

now um yeah I mean there's a lot to say

about State Terror including American

state Terror the kind of um dirty

Warfare tactics that I describe in my

book the management of savagery that

Jade mentioned but I want to kind of

just focus at least my initial

remarks on um on Gaza on what Israel has

been doing to Gaza on trying to

understand kind of the broader outlines

of the policy and I think Elon might be

able to help fill in a lot of the the

the broader outlines with historical

historic details

um I guess I I I I think to to help for

to help to help you understand my

thinking on Gaza I would start actually

in the pre-state era of

Zionism um as the Zionist

Colonial project was taking hold in

places like Jaffa for example where

there was a robust industry of shipping

orange groves and zionists began buying

up the land and the histadrut the the

labor the main labor union of Labor

Zionism then controlled by David benuron

who would go on to become the first

prime minister of Israel would initiate

boycotts of Jewish businesses that that

employed Palestinians as cheap labor and

they would go and attack those

businesses they'd burn them down and

many of those businesses were run

actually by revisionist zionists the

disciples

of Zeb jabotinsky the

political antecedence of the leud party

which Benjamin Netanyahu now leads so

those who are actually The Architects

ideological architects of liberal

Zionism were campaigning for what in

Hebrew is known as hafr or separation

apartheid

segregation while the revisionists were

actually content to exploit Arab labor

this will help us to understand the

siege policy on Gaza and the broader

policy towards the violent demographic

engineering of a ostensively Jewish

majority quote unquote Jewish

State

now at

the after the knocko was completed and

I'll I'll spare you the history of that

Elon is the here but State Terror was

obviously employed in order to guarantee

the expulsion of 750,000 Palestinians

the Israeli state which was completely

controlled by the labor movement those

considered in the west to be the

liberals or the to the left of center

placed a human wall around the Gaza

Strip in an area now known as the Gaza

envelope and they began erecting

kibuts these kind of uh Jews only

socialist communities which were

supplemented by moshavim which were

Cooperative communities also Jews only

and they tilled the land but they

basically served as a means of hemming

in the population of the Gaza Strip who

were who were the

former residents of this area this vast

area all across Southern Israel all the

way up to Tel Aviv and what what became

Tel Aviv many of them actually came from

yafa so they were Surplus Humanity who

had to be held in this human Warehouse

of Gaza there were not walls yet around

the Gaza Strip some barb wire was going

up and every once in a while there would

be fedin attacks on the kibot Sim which

had stolen their land uh guard was

killed in I believe

1953 named Roy rotenberg uh Kut kibuts

guard and Moshe Dian Chief of Staff of

the Israeli Army delivered a speech at

that time that I think is seminal in

understanding the the colonialism that's

at the base of Zionism he said that in

in his eulogy for this guard who was

killed we cannot plant a we cannot plant

a tree or till a field or build a house

without the cannon the machine gun or

the steel helmet and that really is the

essence

of Zionist settler

colonialism

um so hard

separation was

always the goal of the labor movement

that

dominated early Zionism and Israel

throughout much of its history I mean

this goes all the way through the first

intifa which employed State Terror

tactics like the broken bones policy

that yak Rin uh directed in which

Palestinian stone-throwers young men had

their arms broken by the

military um but Palestinians were still

able to cross into 40 1948 Israel uh to

serve as cheap labor and Yak Rabin the

most visible figure the hero of Labor

Zionism of modern labor Zionism

campaigned in 1992 on getting Gaza out

of Tel Aviv that was one of his campaign

slogans um he declared that he that Gaza

would simply sink into the sea and

disappear but what he meant was get all

the Palestinian laborers out of Tel Aviv

make Palestinians

disappear that was the point of the Oslo

Accords that uh rabine oversaw and along

with his labor Minister himim Ramon in

the late 90s Rabin and Ramon were

already drawing out the outlines for the

apartheid wall that would separate

Palestinians from the West Bank from the

majority

of Jews who lived in quote unquote

Israel proper which was to include the

major settlement blocks like Ariel and

Malay

adumim

um for Palestinians obviously this was

unacceptable uh when Ariel Chiron Rose

to power he began a policy of provoking

the Palestinians into violence in order

to achieve uh goals of further ethnic

cleansing and separation starting with

his provocative visit to the alaxa

compound but then 1 million bullets in

October actually this preceded Chiron um

in the ahud Barack Administration the

Israeli military fired a million bullets

at Palestinian protesters at the dawn of

the second inata was part of a push

policy to push them towards violence

through State Terror and the violence

did come it came in the form of suicide

bombing it came in the form of armed

resistance in the occupied territories

attacks on

Settlers the liberal publication harit

the voice of the enlightened public of

Israel declared that we are in a war for

coffee and croissants in the morning in

other words to preserve what labor party

prime minister ahud Barack

called a villa in the jungle that was

how he described Israel a villa in the

jungle in straightforward Colonial

language Israel was to enjoy a

European lifestyle particularly in Tel

Aviv and West and South

Jerusalem and the Palestinians were were

going to have to disappear at some point

so this led to first of all the

construction of the apartheid wall in

and around the West Bank but also the

siege policy of Gaza uh to construct

kind of a cordon seniter around Gaza and

to necessitate that Israel evacuated

some 9,000 settlers Fanatics from from

gush

katif and got the praise of liberal

zionists and left zionists like David

grman who actually said that Ariel

Chiron the bulldozzer as he was praised

by Joe Biden at his funeral uh might

actually be a man of Peace because he

carried out this disengagement what they

didn't understand was that as the

Director of the shinb at the time Avi

dictor said the point of the

disengagement was to give is Israeli

forces greater freedom of operation in

the Gaza Strip this meant that they

could actually start to treat the Gaza

Strip as the United States treated

Afghanistan as an open war zone that

could be targeted with F-16 attack Jets

tank shells wouldn't just be uh the

usual kind of special forces operation

and bulldozing just one you know one

specific area like the Janine refugee

camp entire neighborhoods and cities

could eventually be

leveled um academics were brought in

from the labor Zionist wing of the

Zionist movement to help devise this

Siege one was Arnold Sofer a

demographer uh from I believe Tel Aviv

University who said that in order for us

to survive we will have to kill and kill

and kill all day every day because the

pressure at the borders in Gaza will

become enor ormous and what he meant to

say is if we leave and start to treat

Gaza as a war zone resistance will

flourish there and we will have to crush

it by mass killing every day in order to

create a legal

justification uh for that policy the

policy of dropping 502,000 pound bombs

in Gaza deliberately killing

civilians academics like asak Kasher

from Tel Aviv University and former

military intelligence operative Amos

yadin devised the The Neighbor policy

the idea that the Geneva conventions was

irrelevant and that the what they called

the terrorists non-dangerous neighbor

could also be

killed um this is a policy they freely

introduced as I said in order to subvert

the Geneva conventions and make children

and women legal targets simply because

they live next door to the so-called

Terror IST and as we now see the

terrorist is anyone who's defined as

having an affiliation with Hamas uh

meaning they could be working

for uh some Municipal Authority as a

plumber but as long as they work under

the rubric of Hamas they're a Target so

essentially they created the legal

justification out of Tel Aviv University

for

genocide this came to be known as the

dahia doctrine after Israel leveled the

Southern Beirut neighborhood of dahia

which was which they they labeled a

stronghold for Hezbollah during the

2006 Invasion and assault on Lebanon

which was a failed attempt to dislodge

Hezbollah and permanently push them

beyond the uh Lani River this was a

failed operation but it

created uh under the watch of Gotti

eisenkot again another figure from the

labor party in is Israel who is then is

the Israeli Army chief of staff and who

is currently in the war cabinet with

Netanyahu uh someone who's a preferred

choice of the Americans in the Biden

Administration they created a formalized

state Terror Doctrine in which civilians

would be attacked all and neighborhoods

would be leveled entire cities would be

destroyed in order to pressure the

civilian population into turning against

resistance because they would be so Dem

moralized and under this delusional

Israeli stratagy they believed that the

Lebanese people and particularly the

Lebanese Shia would turn against tasa

andala they soon applied this Doctrine

to the Palestinians of Gaza in 20082

2009 with operation castled then

operation pillar of cloud 2011 then in

2014 uh the war that I witnessed that I

wrote him about in my book The 51 Day

War and the documentary I co-produced

killing Gaza operation protective Edge

um and after

that operation um I testified at the

Russell tribunal was a people's tribunal

in

Brussels um and I was asked the question

which all presenters were asked had

Israel committed genocide in this 2014

assault which I witnessed on the Gaza

Strip and I said well I can't conclude

that they committed genocide even though

I walked through the rubble of entire

essentially entire cities from shua to

banon the entire Frontier region that

were completely

destroyed while they hadn't committed

genocide Israel was primed for genocide

it was primed to commit

genocide because of the that it had

already established the legal

justification for doing so it already

had the Diplomatic support from the

United States and Brussels to do so it

already had the weapons to do so and

also it had the collective psyche

embedded in its population to do so

because by that time and by the time I

was writing my book Goliath which came

out in 2013 where I spent so much time

inside Jewish Israeli Society the

Palestinian through the policy of hard

separation of hafr through the siege of

Gaza and the Walling off of the West

Bank had essentially disappeared and

they became nothing more than the

Spectre of a terrorist someone who is

encountered by Young Israelis

only as

digitized images on a drone screen whose

lives could be flicked off with the

switch with could be switched off with

the flick of a joystick button they had

essentially been reduced to to what the

Italian philosopher Georgio agamben

called be life who existed in a state of

legal

exception which

is the sort of the essence of life under

a fascist genocidal

regime they had been reduced to what

the Harvard historian or former

historian at Harvard and disciple of the

late orientalist Bernard Lewis someone

named Martin Kramer referred to as

Superfluous young men and so the policy

always was pointing towards genocide

Israel was primed for genocide long ago

the Zionist project was always leading

us to this

direction uh and now it has the

technology through the lavender AI

system to conduct targeting for for

genocide at a rate so

fast that humans cannot even process it

and the Israeli military is struggling

to keep up with this dystopian Skynet

like system which devises targets so

rapidly that they cannot conduct

genocide quickly enough but they can be

sure through President Joe Biden and the

people who control him like Tony blinkin

that they'll have the weapons to do so

Biden just authorized $700 million in

new tank shells for the Israeli military

because they've they keep running out um

really quickly to

conclude this policy of State Terror

separation uh this dystopian

policy of the Zionist project carried

out by the Israeli

regime does not only target Palestinians

Palestinian Muslims and Chris Christians

as we've seen through the Hannibal

directive Jews particularly Jewish

Israelis can be a Target as well when

the melee in um ensued on October

7th and Palestinian militants began

capturing Jewish Israelis either at a

music festival or in the kibuts that had

been established as a human wall or in

the army bases that were embedded within

the kibuts seim and which used the

kibuts residents as human Shields when

they came under attack Israel enacted

the Hannibal directive once a

secret um a secret and scandalous

directive that allows the military to

kill Jewish Israeli citizens and Israeli

soldiers if they are held hostage or

taken captive in order to deny

Palestinian militant factions political

leverage that they exercise to exchange

them for the hundreds and thousands of

Palestinian captives and hostages who

are in Israeli prisons and we wrote when

we wrote about it this at the gry zone

and demonstrated that Apache helicopters

were in the air on October 7th targeting

anything on the ground but particularly

Vehicles heading back into Gaza

knowingly

targeting Jewish

Israelis uh when tanks were operating in

the kibu seim knowingly targeting Jewish

Israelis because they were held hostage

in order to avoid negotiations I was

called a master manipulator by who by

harits which later confirmed that this

policy had been enacted so when you

dehumanize your enemy so much you begin

to dehumanize your own population in

order to advance the makavelian

objectives of your mafia like Elite and

that now extends on a global level I see

the Hannibal directive being extended to

Jews internationally because the Zionist

movement has always identified the

Jewish diaspora as a threat to its own

existence if we Jews flourish in the

diaspora as we're doing in the United

States where we continue to enjoy a

golden age it negates the very

justification for Zionism and so we are

now being met with a manufactured Panic

about a surge in anti-Semitism with

pro-israel Israel Lobby operatives from

campuses being trotted out to deliver

press conferences to invent

hate crimes against themselves

falsifying anti-semitic hate crimes to

place Jews in a state of complete panic

and at the same time weaponizing the

Holocaust and Jewish historic Perse

historical persecution the history of

anti-Semitism as tools of mass

repression to Ram

through bills like the anti-Semitism

awareness act which was just passed by a

majority in Congress a vast majority

mostly Gentile members of Congress which

declares that trenchant criticism

including accusing Israel of being an

apartheid state is anti-Semitic and that

the Department of Education in the

United States must adopt this definition

this definition defines me and Elon Pape

as anti-semites along with a full

onethird of All American Jews under the

age of 40 who believe correctly that

Israel is committing genocide in Gaza

that's what they recently told pollsters

and I think it's this weaponization of

anti-Semitism uh which places Jews in

Peril around the world which creates

divisions between them and the majority

population in which they live and which

which deliberately aims to destroy the

Jewish diaspora and it's this

weaponization policy which has led to

the targeting of Jews who refuse to

accept the dehumanization and genocide

of Palestinians like Elon Pape uh and

has sicked the security services all

across the West on them so I look

forward to hearing more about what

actually happened in Detroit but also um

to hearing elon's

analysis of how we got here and uh I

thank you all for giving me the mic

thanks so much Max we learned a lot

there and I think a lot of questions at

least within me um have Arisen which

hopefully we can cover in the Q&A

session now I'll hand it over toad Elan

Professor Anan Pape who is back in I

believe London

now yes thank you tonai thank you Max

for both of your kind references and

thank you for just for organizing this

very important important uh webinar and

uh I would try and squeeze within the

time given to me uh uh the important uh

topic that we were asked to to talk

about and I'm so glad that Max did such

a comprehensive job in covering quite a

few of the um aspects that I wanted to

relate to and I will uh uh just shortly

repeat only one or two of them and try

to add some

a different kind of angle on on this

question of State Terror as a form of

regime change um and if I have time I

will might refer to what happened in

Detroit in the context of uh of what I

would like to stress I hope it will work

um the

uh ability of changing the reality of

Palestine a country deeply uh uh

connected organically

religiously uh culturally and

historically to the Arab world in

general and particular to an area we

call the mashrik the Eastern

Mediterranean uh the ability to take

such a country and totally change it uh

converted into a a a Jewish

European uh Alien political entity

within that world the ability to

transform uh such a

reality uh is not uh something that only

one state can carry out and um as

powerful as the zanis movement was and

as lethal as the Israeli state was after

1948 when it was

established this kind of transformation

would not have been able be able to take

place unless it had behind it a very

powerful Alliance and Coalition and

therefore I would refer in my uh

contribution to the terror of the

alliance that uh enabled the Zionist

movement to colonize Palestine

dispossess half of its population and to

commit the current crimes against the

Palestinian people that we are

witnessing both in the Gaza Strip and in

the West Bank because I think it's very

important to talk about what I usually

call Global Israel you can call it

Global Zionism if you want H because

this will

explain uh both the the power behind the

transformation H and and by

transformation I mean the destruction of

of a country H and uh the position of

its people but also expose the

weaknesses of that project and why I

believe actually that this project is

beginning to see its final

days it is something that people tend to

to forget that long before any person

living in Palestine whether they belong

to the Muslim majority or to the sizable

Christian minority and the smaller

Jewish minority long before anyone

living in

Palestine uh during the 19th century was

aware of it already very powerful people

were

discussing how to remove them and how to

turn their country into something

else and these people to begin with were

not Jews they were Evangelical

Christians and they held powerful

position positioned as powerful as a

president of the United States as a

president of the American Supreme Court

uh as Secretary of State of the British

Imperial

government as uh a important policy

makers in different levels in the

European

continent and they had something in

common that either for theological

reasons or strategic

reasons they believed that the land they

called The Holy Land which is Palestine

uh Israel today with the occupied

territories they believe that that land

had to be part of the Christian world of

the western

world and um er as we move throughout

the 19th

century ER this more elusive ideas

become more focused and the the idea is

that not only Palestine should be part

of the Western World a consensus begins

to be built both in the United States

and in Britain and some other uh States

within the West that Palestine should be

part of the British Empire and be seeded

from the Ottoman Empire as you probably

know the Ottomans ruled Palestine for

400 years from 1517 to 1917

the idea that Palestine should not be

part of the Ottoman Empire in fact

should not be part of the Arab world

should not belong to the Muslim World

from a theological point of view was

connected to an

Evangelical Dogma that

s the Palestine as the ground in which

the end of times would eventually

materialize and in order for that plan

that included the return of Jesus Christ

the Messiah the resurrection of the dead

and the beginning of 1,000 years of

Christ rule on the world and these

people took seriously these Visions uh

in order for that to happen the first

step was to return as they would call it

the Jews to Palestine so long before

Jews uh in Europe especially in eastern

Central Europe with thinking about

colonizing Palestine or settling in

ottoman Palestine already powerful

Evangelical Christians were talking

about their movement from Europe and the

United States to Palestine in order to

precipitate the second coming of the

Messiah when it was clear towards the

end of the 19th century that the days of

the Ottoman Empire are numbered then

then began a a a strategic thinking to

evolve that uh saw the need to turn

Palestine into a je Jewish state from an

imperialist point of view rather than a

theological point of view um Palestine

is part of a geographical area that in

the eyes of the British imperialist was

an important land bridge together with

Egypt and Iraq on the way to to Asia to

British especially esally to India but

not only India to other possessions of

the British

Empire these ideas that's the

theological and strategic one influenced

very much the early Zionist thinkers

among the Jewish Community who initially

were their impulse was not to look for

settlement in Palestine or colonization

of Palestine but rather looking for a

way of dealing with a surge of

anti-Semitism and wish to modernize

Jewish life believing also that a more

secular modern Jewish Community would be

more accepted to the non-jewish uh

society and therefore looked for a way

of redefining Judaism as

nationalism but the moment they

understood that there is a powerful

Coalition there that would help them to

implement the idea of Judaism as

nationalism and Jewish going out Jews

going out of Europe in order to save

themselves from more anti-Semitism when

they realize that there's already a

powerful Alliance that would help them

to build their National nationality or

new national identity in Palestine they

became hooked themselves on the idea and

reorientated uh anyone else who was in

the early Zionist movement towards

colonizing Palestine all this was

happening without anyone in Palestine

realizing that powerful people powerful

states powerful religious movements were

already

discussing the idea of Jews colonizing

Palestine you may ask did they already

understand at the time that colonization

would lead to the elimination of the

local

Palestinians well we have now become

much more aware as Scholars of something

called settler

colonialism the particular kind of

colonialist project which is very

similar to the Zionist one when European

powers support movements of European

refugees or outcasts or marginal groups

uh and and allow them to colonize other

parts with their help but not as proper

colonies of the Empire and the

difference between a imperialist

colonization of a place is that the

imperial power wanted to exploit the

local people whereas the settler

Colonial groups like the Zionist Jews

were more interested in El eliminating

eliminating the local indigenous people

as the late Patrick Wolf a great scholar

of settler colonialism said when uh it

was clear for settlers such as the

Zionist with the help of this

International Alliance that there is an

indigenous population a native

population in the country in which they

want to rebuild themselves as a European

Jewish

State as happened to the white settlers

in North America and in Australia the

logic of the elimination of the Native

emerged and

elimination in CA in many cases meant

genocide or ethnic cleansing or enclav

people in apar systems that happened in

South Africa but again I want to stress

the fact I'm not trying to absolve the

Zionist movement for adopting the

elimination as the main methods of

turning Palestine into a Jewish State

and Max already gave us some

horrific an entry to some of horrific

chapters in this history of elimination

but I want to understand who is

complicit in this and and the

Palestinians as it is were pastoral

people with very little impulse to be

Warriors of any kind and they were

facing not just as Zionist settlers

otherwise you cannot explain why Zionism

was so successful because the zanis was

was a small minority when they started

ethnically cleansing the Palestinians in

the 1920s they could do it because a

mixture of

islamophobia a mixture of Western

Supremacy which Stuart Hall described so

well in his article the west and the

rest together with strategic

interest targeted the

Palestinian as dispensable as people who

could be removed and that led to the

kind of dehumanization that Marx was

talking about but I'm trying to expand

it and saying that the dehumanization

was not that just Zionist dehumanizing

Palestine the West as a whole has a

powerful structure of politics e omics

and culture dehumanize of course other

people as well but I haven't seen

another historical example where the

dehumanization was so focused on one

particular people in in

1918 600,000 Palestinians lived in

Palestine and they were targeted very

easily as dispensable uh uh in order to

fulfill all kinds of dreams of Jesus

coming back of uh the Crusaders coming

back uh and of Jewish

Revival and solution for

anti-Semitism moving fast

forward as you all know uh Britain LED

this Coalition more or less until 1948

but

already excuse me

already in 1918 it was very clear that

the United States would play a very

important role in this International

immunity which I call Terror because

from the Palestinian perspective this

International Alliance is terror is

Terrorism against them it's meant to

intimidate them to terrorize them and

eliminate them a a pro Zionist Jewish

Lobby emerged in America already in the

1918 by the time the second world war

ended it became already a powerful Lobby

by itself joined by a Christian

Lobby and these are lobbies that exist

existed already from if we look at them

today you can say that they are more

than 100 years old which this longivity

explains also their power and the

inertia that the Everybody by inertia

everybody Obe obeys them even without

their need to exert a

pressure now if you add to this in

modern time not just the power of the

United States but the interest of

multinational

corporation the high-tech uh uh uh

industry the military industry the

securitization industry you can see that

this Global Coalition

continues and this time is not just

complicit in the elimination itself far

more important it's complicit by

providing immunity and a shield for the

one power that precisely does the

elimination itself which is the state of

Israel and and part of this kind of uh

elimination in our time apart from the

horrific genocide that we are witnessing

is trying to suppress and silence any

attempt to show the this

complicity any attempt to show the

essence of Zionism the dehumanization of

Zionism to protect this charade

fabricated charade narrative that

actually here you have a civilized

Democratic State the doing self-defense

and the collateral damage is the is the

elimination of the Palestinians uh and

and in order to protect that that

narrative you want to silence whether

it's to try to silence me in the United

States uh or to silence Max or to

silence any one of us uh and what is so

absurd and with this I will come to

conclusion what is so absurd that while

we are watching daily on our small

screen and big screen the genocide in

Palestine this

attempt to justify the global Coalition

that enables that kind of genocide and

enabled the genocide before and the

ethnic lensing before that Coalition

still works still is at work despite

everything that one can see for

themselves and are either surprised or

not surprised I don't know that still

there are young people with modicum of

decency in them who would do would build

encampments on University compasses

other people who would go in masses to

demonstration and uh many of them would

be Jews as well as Muslims and

Christians it is still surprising that

um there is still the sense among those

who are part of that Global Israel

Coalition that they can still

convey their destructive support for the

destruction of the Palestinian through a

discourse of

democracy uh

civilization uh self-defense and so on

um the gap between the way they talk

about the reality and the reality itself

has never has never been wider and and I

think that we should tell them that we

are thinking about their action as not

only immoral but also as actions of

terrorism uh and instead of Defending

ourselves from accusation as I was

accused in Detroit of supporting Terror

I Tred to give uh those who question me

a short lesson in history which was not

a very good one because I was very tired

after eight years an economy class from

from London uh but as much as I could I

told them uh uh do you think that

supporting the Palestinian is supporting

Terror think about what does it mean to

support Israel that's that's that is

supporting Terror you just got got it

wrong uh needless to say that didn't

help uh uh to to shorten the

interrogation it prolonged it but but

the the point is that uh we are on the

right side of history and using the

right language and expanding the

definition of State Terror and

explaining that Palestine of course it's

not the only place where it happened but

it epitomizes the hypocrisy and double

talk of a case study that is 120 years

old in which with the power of the West

a pastoral people were denied their

natural and normal

existence and it's unbelievable that

they are still there it shows their

resilience it shows their

solidarity and this is not because the

Arab world was particularly helpful not

because the Muslim world was particular

helpful not because anyone in the world

was particularly helpful this is because

of the particular DNA the Palestinians

have in their attachment to the land

attachment to their tradition to the

religion to the area but with our help

their efforts in the past should be most

will be more successful in the future

thank

you thank you very much Professor Pape

um I think that since we want to keep

this Within time we can right away go to

Q&A and uh go to the first

one

right yes by Steve Burn and the question

he has is whether uh the United States

or England have special forces who've

been operate operating on the ground in

Gaza do any of you know

somehow I came up on the screen so I'll

take a

shot um well one of the advantages that

the US and UK have is they

can sort of obscure their presence

through the employment of dual National

soldiers who serve in the Israeli

military and we've seen uh David Cameron

British foreign secretary as well as in

a series of State Department

briefings both uh the state department

and foreign Ministry or sorry foreign

Office of the UK refused to say how many

of those who were being held captive in

Gaza are actually prisoners of War who

were British or American citizens who

were serving in the Israeli military at

the time um there are many now uh there

have been several British and

American citizens who were killed within

the Israeli Special Forces

um in Gaza but beyond that there was a

photograph of Joe B of um yeah I believe

it was Joe Biden on his first trip to

Israel in October when he came to bear

hug Netanyahu and forfeit all diplomatic

leverage over Israel and he met with a

series of Delta Force team members from

an elite International US Special Forces

team which often acts as an

assassination Squad they assassinated

Pablo Escobar in Columbia for example

and the White House posted that photo on

its Instagram page and then it

disappeared because those soldiers were

supposed to be operating in Israel in

secret their their faces and identities

were not supposed to be public and the

White House made a giant Gaff there so

we can safely assume that US Special

Forces are in Israel at least in a kind

of training capacity us warships are off

the coast of Gaza the US now has this

dubious Pier off the coast of Gaza and

in order to offload the aid they're

relying on contractors with military

backgrounds in other words mercenaries

and there's been discussion of a Biden

Administration plan for handing over the

Rafa Crossing which was seized by the

Israeli military about a week and a half

ago to a private mercenary firm an

American firm consisting of former

Special Forces soldiers so I think the

stage is set for a scenario in which

American at least former Special Forces

soldiers operating through something

like a Blackwater type company could be

operating inside Gaza the only thing

stopping them is the armed resistance

inside

Gaza uh Thanks Max um so there's a

thread within the some of the questions

about the very very important topic of

us Israeli

relationship and folks are basically

saying

that we want to know more about the

importance of the lobby the Israel Lobby

and whether it's important to amend the

classic chomskian uh framework for

understanding that relationship uh

somewhere between chomsky's view that

it's a strategic asset Israel is and

marimer view that it's a strategic

liability so if I'd be wondering what

your the comments of both of you would

be on

this well I spoke last so I'm happy to

go second here if Elon wants to weigh

in yeah sure go ahead we lost Elon

but well I I absolutely disagree with

chomsky's analysis there that support

for Israel is simply driven by us

Imperial imperatives and objectives um

and we can see that through the scenario

in which the US had to

essentially defend and mobilize a

coalition to defend Israel from an

Iranian retaliation that was driven by

the Brazen and insane behavior of Israel

attacking Iran's Consular facility ities

in Damascus deliberately I mean remember

and this this we're we're almost at the

uh I think 20th anniversary of the US

sorry um 30th anniversary of the US

attacking uh deliberately the Chinese

Embassy in belgrad but the US apologized

for that it tried to deny it at first

lied about it Israel just brazenly

attacks another country Sovereign

territory in order to drag the us into a

war with Iran that the US clearly does

not want

the US clearly doesn't want it uh the US

might want to see Iran be weakened

destroyed from within through sanctions

but as we saw after the killing of kasum

solomani um a military campaign that

brings the US head-to-head with Iran

might be too damaging for us Imperial

interests across the Middle East uh

particularly Jordan we can also see uh

the fraying of the camp David Accords

through the anger and ey that's

expressed by Egypt over Israel

attempting to go into Rafa and putting

so much pressure on Egyptian borders um

there's so many it it's becoming so

obvious that us Imperial interests are

hindered by what Israel is seeking to do

um the US wants to Pivot to Asia right

now it replaced Victoria nuland the

architect of the Ukraine coup with Kurt

Campbell who helped author Obama's pivot

to Asia it doesn't it it doesn't really

want to be engaged right

now uh and that and and and if there

truly was a deep and abiding Imperial us

interest in supporting Israel's Mad Dog

policies to the hilt it wouldn't require

the Israel Lobby to be doing what it's

doing right now certainly there wouldn't

if there was a moral case that wouldn't

be taking place so the Washington post

of all places published one of the most

compelling investigations of the Israel

Lobby that we've seen in recent times

that gained access to a WhatsApp

group it almost sounds like I'm

describing some anti-semitic fantasy

this WhatsApp chat group contained over

50 Zionist billionaires in the

US uh one of them who's very notable

Bill Amman helped uh pay for the counter

protest that led to a violent mob

assault on protest student protesters at

UCLA he oversaw the ousting of Harvard's

president because she refused to ban

students for justice and palese and what

this Zionist billionaire cabal if it

really is a cabal uh was was doing was

they were offering legal bribes to New

York City mayor Eric

Adams and offering

successfully to pay for private

intelligence operations

in order to get our Eric Adams to send

the New York Police Department to attack

and destroy the Columbia University

encampment

um this is just such an ugly period for

the Democratic party and for liberalism

in general they're relying heavily on a

Zionist billionaire class one-third of

Biden's donors who donated close to $1

million to his victory fund are

pro-israel

operatives and yet they have to cater to

this group of operatives at the expense

of their own

base Joe Biden is losing a substantial

portion of his base particularly people

under 35 because he has to cater not

only to this Zionist billionaire class

but to Israel itself because they're

essentially cutouts of Israeli

intelligence many of them have close

ties to Israeli intelligence and are

dual Israeli citizens like Heim Saban or

Miriam Adon who is one of the top donors

to the Republican party on behalf of her

late husband Sheldon so we're witnessing

us politics being destabilized by the

cutouts of this foreign entity and it

doesn't really back up the thesis that

Israel and the US have the same shared

interests and goals uh and I should also

mention the the contradictions within

American nationalism are being are

beginning to play out within the Maga

mov movement the prot Trump movement in

which uh two of its top influencers have

jumped ship Candace Owens and Tucker

Carlson and are now in open opposition

to Israel's assault on Gaza kenis Owens

hosted Norman finlin on her show which

led to her ouster by her boss the

Zionist propagandist Ben Shapiro and

Tucker Carlson is faced harsh political

recriminations for hosting an

Evangelical Pastor from Bethlehem the

Palestinian Reverend mutter isak on his

show uh in which for 45 minutes they

shredded the essential logic of Zionism

this is because they don't see American

nationalism or the concept of America

first as lining up with the Israel first

policy Advanced by both Biden and Donald

Trump and their donor

class right thanks Max the one

additional point that I would ask you

about is

uh if if the lobby existed

which it does exist uh but if the

military-industrial complex was not

there also seeking reaping profits from

this so it does seem like they they are

more or less um doing this in Tandem and

it works out for both of them uh so the

question is how long can that that

framework sustain this relationship when

you know when I talk to people it many

people will say within the that kind of

permanent unelected bureaucracy of the

military intelligence apparatus the

National Security Sate many folks within

that uh that architecture would uh

disagree with what the United States

doing and and put forward that argument

that this is incredibly damaging for the

image of the United States in the

world well certainly there are us

Imperial interests being Advanced and

the US also does reap benefits uh the US

Elite reaps benefits from the four bill

from the you know $35 billion just

Advanced to Israel a lot of that will go

straight back to the defense industry in

the US and pay for new mcmansions in the

US suburbs for executives and

contractors I mean the economy here in

Washington DC is heavily fueled by that

kind of corporate welfare but much of

that money is going to Ukraine already

and other countries it's not as though

us Empire or that that class would

collapse if Israel ceased to exist as

the Regional

bully um when I look back to the

immediate days after

911 When Donald

Kagan a neocon intellectual father of

Robert Kagan who advised both Bush

Republican Mitt Romney and Hillary

Clinton the husband of Victoria newand

who was assistant Secretary of State

under Biden immediately blamed

Palestinians for the 911 attacks two

days after 911 and the days after 9 11

we saw footage non-stop On Us Media of

Palestinian youth celebrating the

attacks in rala Howard Stern the shock

jock propagandist blamed Palestinians as

the attack was taking

place there was just this reflexive urge

to blame Palestinians uh Ariel Chiron

whispered in George W Bush's ear yasur

Arafat is a Bin

Laden and there was clear Israeli

influence on everything the US did maybe

outside of Afghanistan after 911 the

Iraq War Benjamin Netanyahu came to

testified to the Senate that Saddam

absolutely had wmd the Israelis pushed

the red line policy on Syria on chemical

weapons leading to uh Western leading uh

driving various chemical attack false

flag hoaxes and staged events like the

one in Duma and Syria April 2018 momar

Gaddafi absolutely was a target of

Israel Gaddafi was the first person to

make the case for one state solution in

the New York Times uh was a supporter of

Palestinian resistance and the US waged

Dirty Wars regime change operations and

direct Wars on all of these countries

leading to Regional

destabilization did it benefit us

Empire that is it it doesn't seem as

though it did it seems to have benefited

Iran as well as Russia which

Consolidated a partial hold over Syria

and while these countries were

substantially weakened they were you

know powerful Sovereign or they they had

some power as Sovereign Arab states

independent states which at least

rhetorically opposed Zionism it hasn't

worked out well for us Empire thousands

and thousands of Christian American

soldiers were killed in these wars

fomenting anger across Middle America

one of the the I guess the thesis of the

management of savagery is how the my

book was that these wars led to the rise

of Donald Trump and trumpism which I

think will trumpism will ultimately

weaken American Empire and certainly uh

eliminates American soft power at

selling point of liberalism and the

marketing of America as a shining City

on the hill

so I don't I I I I I'm wait I'm taking

up too much time here but I just think

that the

thesis uh the thesis of me shimer has

really won out in the post October 7

era yeah no certainly it seems that way

Professor Pape obviously you've just

written a book about the influence of

the lobby both in I think the UK and in

the United States so my question uh for

you would be the same I mean h how

determinative is the role of the lobby

in the United States uh in in shaping

the American policy towards Israel

Palestine and as you mentioned before uh

we have a conception of what that Lobby

is but would we also include Christian

Zionism which is obviously a huge

phenomena in the United States as part

of the lobby or at least as part of that

those forces that are compelling the

United States to behave this

way well certainly uh the lobby is

crucial for

forming American policy towards Israel

in

Palestine but uh it's a different

question is it is it crucial uh in its

influence on American policy towards the

Arab world the Muslim world or the World

At Large and and there I think uh uh

this the the answer is is is more

complicated sometimes it does sometimes

it doesn't in fact I think for

Generations administrations had a kind

of an agreement with the lobby

especially with APAC uh which uh only

was violated during the last 10 years

that the the pro-israeli or Pro Zionist

Lobby interferes Less in American policy

in the region uh provided uh American

policy towards Israel is on uh on the

right tracks so to speak there was even

almost an Unwritten uh uh agreement with

President fort on such a

there was there was a formula you give

us a card blanch to everything we do in

Palestine and we try not to interfere

with you the way you are uh pursuing

your policies in the Arab world because

after all uh what what what the 7th of

October has uh exposed is that Israel is

not such a huge economic

Bonanza and you can sell arms to to

Saudi Arabia and probably get more money

from the money you will get from from

Israel and you won't it would be much

less complicated military Arrangement so

so I think in that respect um the power

of the lobby and also the weakness of

the lobby is that uh it is totally

focused to my mind it's totally focused

on on uh giving a card blanch to Israel

to do whatever it wants especially

towards the Palestinians and sometimes

part of that c plunge or the demand for

C plunge is also so influencing the way

Israel wants American policy to develop

towards Syria Iraq and so on but I think

it's a far more marginal uh issue now

what I think is important is that uh the

lobby has two weaknesses one it works by

inertia and and because it works by

inertia it it assumes and I think with

the present generation of American

politicians it might be right I'm not

sure where they would this would be

right with the younger generation that

he doesn't have to do much work anymore

because you know the DNA of an American

politician is to

abide or to stand as they would put it

uh by Israel without any need for the U

Lobby to

intervene there were I think for the

first time there although there were

some individual but for the first time

there are FAL face with a group of

American politician not just an

individual here and there that they're

perspective on politics and especially

on foreign policy is one in which Israel

is the arah state Israel is the the

criminal State Define it as you wish and

therefore this and and all the

methodologies that are at apo's disposal

are irrelevant when they're dealing with

uh uh people especially Young American

politicians with that kind of moral view

about politics so that's one we weakness

uh that they don't have the tools to

deal with a possible with a possible

transformation not of all the American

politicians of course not but uh with a

sizable group of of young aspiring

politicians who might bring a different

kind of perspective uh uh towards the uh

the developments in Palestine the second

weakness which I think is very important

is that the way Israel

develops and I have little doubt that

Israel is moving into a very clear

period in which the Messianic right wing

is going to take over uh Israeli

Politics the security services the Army

uh we are moving into a kind of Israel

that uh would be very difficult to be

defended and and and and Justified even

for

uh people who you know for years

supported Israel and and the lobby would

find itself defending an Israel that is

very different from the Israeli

defendant in the last 76 years of course

that Israel did terrible things as well

but it was able to commodify itself as a

country in which there are diversity of

opinions there's also a liberal peace

Camp even a socialist peace Camp all

this is going out of the window now

and uh again I don't think the lobby has

the ability to defend that kind of

Israel uh and uh as I say it is facing a

different kind of uh a generational view

including among Jews in America that uh

we should not take a theological

determinist view about the power of that

Lobby uh I I think its weakening is part

of many other indications theist project

is coming to its last

days wonderful just uh two final

questions but I was going to say that it

also seems very clear that uh the lobby

or Israel will no longer be able to

create another uh Lobby which is as

Zionist as they have in the past I think

this what MX refer to a new generation

of younger Jews that they will find I

think it much more difficult ult for

them to be as Zionist as they have been

in the past so I think that's one factor

but the last two questions for you both

um max the issue that many people have

brought up is what you've also been

speaking very powerfully on is are the

mass student uprisings and the way that

uh University administrations egged on

by Congress have responded to them um I

think people know what's going on there

although you can kind of remind us of

some of the worst aspects of it but but

also its larger meaning as you say uh

it's the unmasking of all of the elite

institutions I think people really

interested in and and what you your take

is on

that sorry I was having a technical

issue there um well really quickly I

mean what the students are doing is

filling the moral void which has been

left by our entire political class which

are controlled by

uh repugnant donor class that I already

discussed and they're being punished for

it by Administration that are controlled

in the same way uh and in doing so

they're unmasking Academia the the

campus what it truly means the idea of H

how how our Elite interpret the First

Amendment it's not something to be

protected if it actually threatens their

hold on Power and they're exposing

Zionist control Zionist influence over

these institutions

where in in a way in which uh you know

core American values are to be

sacrificed in order to protect the

special relationship with an apartheid

Colony 5,000 miles away called Israel

it's completely infuriating to watch and

I think the most

illustrative scenario took place in Los

Angeles in West Los Angeles and uccla

where the infrastructure for a kind of

counter-protest of just raw hate which

was filled with many is Israeli army

veterans Israeli expats in La along with

uh Jewish

Iranians and various Thugs and Hooligans

was C erected by the Israel American

Council a powerful Israel Lobby Group

which paid for speaker systems to blast

uh the noises of babies screaming at

peaceful student demonstrators who

enacted Who had who had created a Gaza

encampment uh to play hours on end of

atrocity footage or alleged atrocity

footage from October 7th and then to

allow a mob of hooligans to attack those

peaceful student demonstrators on camera

it was live streamed on La local news

everyone was watching

it uh various zus thugs committed

multiple acts of assault and battery on

camera and no one has been arrested and

I think it's clear even the New York

Times acknowledged this in a report

political influence has given those

attackers impunity in the same way that

political influence has given the thugs

of idar benav who are now allowing

allowed to wear army uniforms and are

armed with us M4 carbines provided by

the United States impunity to carry out

Terror across the West Bank so the

occupation has come home and its Target

are the Americans who have the humanity

and the morality and the conscience to

put their convictions on the line in

these encampments on campuses uh and I

think this will go to Chicago to the

Democratic Convention and it will be one

of the biggest tests the Democratic

party has faced since

1968 great thank thanks for that Max um

and finally for professor

uh a lot of folks have now heard you

speaking about this being essentially

the last phase of the Zionist project uh

and folks are really interested I mean

uh in uh in understanding what are those

indicators that you

believe are part and parcel of this this

end of this project yeah first of all I

I I I talk about the beginning of the

end uh and that is important because

historically beginning can be a long

period not only a long period but also

very dangerous period because regimes

that feel insecure and

uh are uh re realize themselves that are

under the danger of collapse and

disintegration are uh losing any

inhibitions if they ever had some

inhibitions before in using force and

lethal force in order to uh survive so

uh the bad news is that because it is

the beginning of the end the very near

future holds a lot of dangers uh

especially to the Palestinians as I

think the next Israeli project after

Gaza is the West Bank and and and I'm

very apprehensive of what Israel is

going to do there in a very near uh

future however uh looking a bit uh uh

into a a more distant future you can see

indicators that are discret and seem to

be disconnected at this moment in time

but I think they might fuse together

into very powerful a a a

transformative uh event that would

change the reality in Palestine one

indicator is the implosion of the

Israeli Jewish Society from within uh it

seems that the whole idea of Judaism

nationalism is not working uh there is

little Common Ground between Israeli who

see themselves as seculars liberal

Western if you want and the Israelis

will see themselves as religious

Messianic and and believe in Israel that

Israel should be a Jewish theocracy uh

they found in the past a common enemy

the Palestinians of the Arab world uh

but it seems and and the 7th of October

has proved that that uh that external

danger as They Se it fails to unite them

anymore so I cannot see any any SE where

would they find the cement to hold them

together if even the the fear from the

Palestinians or the neighboring Arab

state is not working to unite them so

that's one indicator a second indicator

is the collapse of the Israeli economy

for years Israel was applauded for being

one of the most successful economic

system in the Oe

but in the last seven months we have

seen that this macroeconomic

approach did not uh covered up for a

microeconomic reality by which the gap

between the rich and the poor is getting

uh uh wider by the day Israel without

American financial assistance find it

very difficult to provide basic needs

and basic infrastructure and the worst

thing that happens uh from an Israeli

economic perspective is that the

economic Elite has already decided to

invest its capital outside of Israel

some even followed the investment and

relocated themselves this is an

inevitable development because there's

no chance for peace of reconciliation in

the next uh 10 or 20 years so this uh uh

drain of money and the people who are

making the money uh will continue a

third indicator is the growing is ation

of Israel it's making of a parah state

the the the beginning of the possibility

that people are moving from actions of

Civil Society of boycott and divestment

to actions of government to to to to

sanctions uh the fact that the younger

Jewish generation is deserting Zionism

and many of them are supporting the

solidarity movement with the

Palestinians is another indicator and uh

the fact that um the whole area around

Israel uh is moving in a very into very

revolutionary period uh which challenges

the political structure that was built

during the colonialist uh uh uh during

the end of the first world war by the

colonial Powers Britain and France which

challenges the West failure nation state

idea so there is a whole Regional

transformation that would affect very

much this the create the existence of a

Jewish State a racist Jewish State and

finally

while the national Palestinian movement

at this very moment is disunited

fragmented uh there is new energy among

younger Palestinian and this is one of

the youngest Societies in the world to

rebuild an organization that is far more

consensual far more comprehensive and

therefore I think will be far more

effective in uh uh contributing to the

collapse of the Zionist project and

hopefully will also suggest which it

doesn't now

uh uh what should replace it and so I

think you take all these indicators some

others I don't have time to explore uh

uh you can see as as a SC I can see as a

scholar not just as an

activist huge cracks in the building and

I think they are not uh amendable