Jeff Booth Interview: Bitcoin - the Price of Today! A must hear interview on the key to our future
Summary
TLDRIn this insightful discussion, host James interviews Jeff Booth, author of 'The Price of Tomorrow,' who offers profound insights into the intersection of technology, finance, and the global economic system. Booth argues that technology-driven deflation and the current inflationary monetary system are on a collision course, with significant implications for wealth, power, and societal structures. He advocates for Bitcoin as a transformative solution, providing a path to a more equitable and abundant future, while warning of the potential pitfalls of centralized digital currencies and the importance of understanding the true nature of money and economic systems.
Takeaways
- 📚 Jeff Booth's book 'The Price of Tomorrow' is regarded as a seminal work that provides insights into the intersection of technology and finance, suggesting a future where technology drives down prices, conflicting with traditional inflationary economic models.
- 💡 The conversation emphasizes the transformative impact of exponential technological growth on various industries, which is often misunderstood due to its rapid pace and the human difficulty in comprehending such swift changes.
- 🌐 Booth discusses the paradox where technology should enhance productivity and reduce costs, yet the current financial system is predicated on constant growth, leading to wealth concentration and societal divides.
- 🏦 The interview touches on the potential collapse of credit and financial systems if governments cease monetary easing, highlighting the fragility of economies heavily reliant on stimulus.
- 📉 There's a critique of central banking and monetary policy, suggesting that continuous easing leads to wealth transfer from the middle class to the wealthy, potentially fueling social unrest.
- 🏁 Booth suggests that Bitcoin represents a 'third door' or alternative system that could disrupt the current financial paradigm by offering a decentralized, deflationary monetary system.
- 🌱 The discussion highlights the importance of getting 'off zero' with Bitcoin, meaning that even a small investment can be a significant step towards financial sovereignty and protection against economic instability.
- 🏘️ There's a warning about the inflated housing market, suggesting that it's propped up by monetary policy and could be at risk if the stimulus-driven demand fades or changes.
- 🌐 The interviewees agree that Bitcoin and related technologies might be the key to solving systemic issues like climate change, by allowing for a more efficient allocation of resources and a shift away from perpetual growth models.
- ⏳ There's a call to action for individuals to educate themselves about Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies, as they might offer protection and opportunities in the face of economic uncertainty and potential systemic collapse.
Q & A
What is the main theme of the book 'The Price of Tomorrow' by Jeff Booth?
-The main theme of 'The Price of Tomorrow' is the conflict between two systems: one driven by technology that leads to deflation, making things cheaper and more abundant, and the other, the existing financial system, which is designed to create inflation and requires constant growth.
How does Jeff Booth describe the impact of technology on pricing?
-Jeff Booth explains that technology makes everything cheaper by increasing efficiency and productivity, which should naturally lead to deflation. However, this is at odds with the current financial system that is built on the premise of inflation.
What does Jeff Booth suggest is the relationship between exponential growth in technology and our financial systems?
-Jeff Booth suggests that the exponential growth in technology is creating a deflationary force that is colliding with our inflationary financial systems, leading to a paradox where technology should be making things more affordable, but the financial system requires constant growth and inflation.
How does the concept of exponentiality relate to the current economic systems discussed by Jeff Booth?
-Exponentiality, as discussed by Jeff Booth, refers to the rapid growth and advancement in technology that is outpacing our ability to comprehend and adapt. This leads to a fundamental shift in economic systems, as the traditional models are not equipped to handle the rate of change and the potential for abundance that technology promises.
What does Jeff Booth argue about the role of central banks in the current economic climate?
-Jeff Booth argues that central banks are caught in a paradox where they must continue to stimulate the economy through measures like quantitative easing to prevent a deflationary spiral, despite the fact that such measures are at odds with the deflationary forces brought about by technological advancements.
How does Jeff Booth view the potential of Bitcoin in the context of the current financial and technological landscape?
-Jeff Booth sees Bitcoin as a potential solution or 'third door' to the problems caused by the collision of technological deflation and financial inflation. He views it as a way to transition to a system that can handle the abundance created by technology without the need for constant inflation.
What is the significance of the 'bridge' analogy used by Jeff Booth in relation to Bitcoin?
-The 'bridge' analogy signifies the transition from the current financial system to one that is more aligned with technological progress. Bitcoin is seen as a foundational element of this bridge, paving the way for a new economic paradigm that can support and encourage innovation and abundance.
How does Jeff Booth respond to the idea that Bitcoin could be manipulated by large entities or governments?
-Jeff Booth acknowledges the possibility of manipulation but suggests that such attempts would be short-lived and would ultimately fail due to the decentralized and resilient nature of Bitcoin, which is designed to operate outside of traditional financial controls.
What advice does Jeff Booth give to individuals who are not yet invested in Bitcoin?
-Jeff Booth advises individuals to 'get off zero' by acquiring some Bitcoin, even if it's a small amount. This allows them to participate in the emerging system and understand its potential, rather than being left behind as the transition to a new financial paradigm occurs.
How does Jeff Booth perceive the current state of Bitcoin adoption and its future trajectory?
-Jeff Booth perceives the current state of Bitcoin adoption as still in its early stages, comparing it to the early days of the internet. He believes that as more people and businesses recognize the value and necessity of Bitcoin, adoption will accelerate, leading to a broader transition to a new economic system.
Outlines
📚 Introduction to the Interview and 'The Price of Tomorrow'
The interview begins with the host expressing gratitude to the audience for joining and introducing Jeff Booth, a visionary leader with extensive experience in technology and startups. The host mentions Booth's book, 'The Price of Tomorrow,' which is highly regarded as a potentially groundbreaking work. The conversation aims to explore Booth's insights on the intersection of technology, financial markets, and the global economy. Booth discusses his motivations for writing the book, driven by the need to address systemic issues and help others understand the world's current state.
🌐 The Clash of Systems: Technology vs. Traditional Economics
Jeff Booth elaborates on the core thesis of his book, explaining the conflict between technological advancement, which tends to reduce prices and increase efficiency, and traditional economic systems designed for growth and inflation. He uses the metaphor of folding a piece of paper to illustrate the concept of exponential growth and its difficulty for humans to comprehend. The discussion touches on how this clash affects various aspects of society, including wealth distribution and the potential for missed opportunities in recognizing and adapting to technological changes.
💸 Monetary Policy and Its Impact on Technology and Innovation
The conversation delves into the relationship between inflationary monetary policies and technological progress. Booth argues that the current financial system, which relies on constant growth, is at odds with the deflationary tendencies of technology. He discusses the paradox where technology should be beneficial by increasing efficiency and reducing costs, but the monetary system requires continuous expansion, leading to wealth concentration and potential societal unrest. The discussion also touches on the role of central banks and the challenges they face in managing the economy amidst these opposing forces.
🌿 The Role of Bitcoin as a Response to Financial Repression
Booth and the host discuss the emergence of Bitcoin as an alternative to traditional financial systems. They explore how Bitcoin can serve as an 'escape valve' from financial repression imposed by governments and central banks. The conversation considers the potential for Bitcoin to provide a more stable and decentralized monetary system, allowing for greater individual freedom and control over wealth. Booth also addresses the challenges and criticisms of Bitcoin, including its volatility and energy consumption.
🌱 The Emergence of a New Economic Paradigm
The discussion shifts towards the potential for a new economic paradigm, one that embraces the deflationary and efficiency-enhancing aspects of technology. Booth suggests that as people become more aware of the limitations of the current system, they may increasingly turn to alternatives like Bitcoin. He emphasizes the importance of education and understanding the underlying technological and economic forces at play. The host and Booth also touch on the potential societal changes that could accompany a shift towards a more technologically integrated and decentralized financial system.
🌟 The Inevitability of Bitcoin and Its Global Impact
Booth shares his views on the inevitability of Bitcoin and its potential to reshape the global financial landscape. He discusses the network effects driving Bitcoin's adoption and the increasing recognition of its value as a hedge against traditional financial system risks. The conversation also covers the potential for Bitcoin to serve as a catalyst for broader technological and societal changes, including the democratization of financial services and the promotion of individual economic empowerment.
🏛️ The Future of Money and the Potential for a Monetary Revolution
In this segment, Booth and the host contemplate the future of money, with a focus on the potential for a monetary revolution led by Bitcoin. They discuss the growing awareness and acceptance of Bitcoin as a store of value and means of exchange, and the implications this has for traditional financial institutions. The conversation also explores the potential challenges and resistance that may arise as the shift towards Bitcoin and decentralized finance gains momentum.
🌱 Final Thoughts and the Path Forward
The interview concludes with final thoughts from Jeff Booth on the importance of understanding the current financial and technological landscape, and the need for individuals to educate themselves about Bitcoin and its potential implications. Booth emphasizes the transformative potential of Bitcoin and the importance of being open to new ideas and systems. The host thanks Booth for his insights and encourages the audience to continue exploring the topics discussed and to consider the role of Bitcoin in their own financial strategies.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Exponentiality
💡Deflation
💡Inflation
💡Quantitative Easing
💡Bitcoin
💡Scarcity and Abundance
💡Climate Change
💡Central Bank Digital Currencies (CBDCs)
💡Hyperbitcoinization
💡Monetary Policy
Highlights
Jeff Booth discusses the intersection of technology and finance, emphasizing how technology reduces costs while the current financial system is designed to create inflation.
Booth's book 'The Price of Tomorrow' is introduced as a pivotal read for understanding the economic systems clashing in the modern world.
The concept of exponentiality in technology is explored, with examples like the folding paper analogy to illustrate the difficulty of comprehending rapid growth.
Booth explains the paradox where technology should make things cheaper, but the financial system demands constant growth, leading to a wealth transfer issue.
The conversation touches on the role of central banks and the potential consequences of halting economic stimulus, leading to a deflationary spiral.
Kathy Wood's investment strategy and her belief in deflation are analyzed in the context of the current economic climate.
Booth argues that continuous money printing leads to wealth transfer from the middle class to the rich, exacerbating societal divides.
The idea that in a deflationary world, people might not spend due to increasing savings power is challenged by Booth's perspective on human consumption behavior.
Booth and the host debate the sustainability of perpetual low-interest rates and the impact on global economies.
The potential for a global currency war and the role of China's digital currency in international politics are examined.
Booth predicts that Bitcoin represents a third door or alternative to the current financial system, offering a path away from monetary manipulation.
Central Bank Digital Currencies (CBDCs) are critiqued for their potential to increase state surveillance and control over citizens' financial activities.
The interview concludes with a discussion on the importance of Bitcoin as a hedge against financial repression and the potential for a dystopian future under unchecked monetary policy.
Transcripts
so hello everybody thank you so much for
joining i am
this this guy i'm so honored to be here
with jeff booth uh he is a visionary
leader lives at the forefront of a whole
bunch of technologies whole bunch of
startups
uh has been through a whole bunch of
financial crises understands
so much about the world in which we are
in today and i want to pick his mind uh
he wrote a book uh called the price of
tomorrow and not only myself but many
people believe this is the book of the
century so if you don't have it there'll
be a link below and please follow him on
twitter as well um and he's been
published interviewed by pretty much
everybody on earth but i'm hoping we can
pull a few extract a few nuggets from
this man's brilliant mind so
jeff how are you today
wow i'm great thanks for having me james
but uh i i hope i live up to your
introduction oh no well i'm very honored
to be with you because uh first of all
we're kind of aligned in many ways i i
do this to give back and help educate
people to not only preserve wealth but
also grow it and manage risk
and i think you spend a lot of your time
your mission seems to be helping others
helping others wake up to what's going
on in the world today is that fair to
say
yeah it's fair it's fair to say i it's
probably it's when when you have
everything you need
what do what do you do and and and so
when
and as an entrepreneur typically what an
entrepreneur does is try to innovate to
try to create value for other people
and so when i looked at this system
level problem that we're talking about
um and i can i was seeing no fixes for a
system level problem and not people i
had to do something so
so but thank you so speaking of your
book
so for the audience i know many people
will hopefully most have read it those
that haven't they have to order it and
literally it will change the way you
look at the world but the price of
tomorrow
could you summarize it for a
ten-year-old in two to three sentences
sure
um technology makes everything cheaper
um we live in a world that is designed
differently and must make prices go up
and so you have two systems colliding
against each other
in the existing system that we're in and
we measure everything by
we can't see the other system
and so it's it so it provides and and
if i expand on that a little bit more so
uh the um
just about every problem in the world
that we think is a problem is a
derivative of that of that of that fight
two systems fighting each other and you
have to ask yourself
um is technology
going to keep on reducing prices is it
going to give you more
and what would the corresponding system
do to try to stop that
yeah i love that this
related to that part of what's driving a
lot of this is the whole area of
exponentiality and that's really hard to
wrap your head around unless you
sit and nearly meditate and think about
it you know so i know one of your
favorite books is
exponential organizations by salim
ismail
but understanding exponentiality is not
easy i know people look at you know the
iphone generations getting better and
better but one example that i heard from
you in the past was
kind of we are in the 34th fold kind of
everybody out there if you imagine a nap
napkin or a piece of paper being folded
four times it becomes you know one
centimeter thick
but
doubling something 29 times beyond that
you know increases it by a factor of
about 540 million i hope i got some of
these numbers right but can you help
people understand
this exponentiality and how it relates
to money
in today's world
so so if we first start on and remember
the two different systems that operate
exactly diametrically opposed so in the
one system driven by technology
that exponential
that doubling and if you fold a piece of
paper on itself 50 times it'll reach the
sun
but but in the early folds it feels like
nothing it's a couple inches and when
people and and even people who are
listening to this once they hear the
parlor
they'll think it's a parlor trick and
they'll go check on google is that true
and they'll tell their friends and they
will all think now i understand
exponentiality
and they don't and i don't because it's
it's hard for our brains to wrap a wrap
around that type of growth
yet it's the world we live in
and and it's moving at that speed so if
if it's moving at that speed and people
are looking at artificial intelligence
or self-driving cars and everything else
and they're looking backwards against
the trend
looking forwards it's doubling and it's
doubling again it's low and and so if
you think about how that connects to an
inflationary monetary system or how the
way we work and everything else we are
like very likely to miss it
very likely to when and why most people
miss technology
that most people miss to the internet
most people miss alt the iphone compared
to blackberry most people miss it
is because of the same thing it's moving
on this curve and they can't project the
future at that rate
and and and so
and entrepreneurs are typically really
good at this and timing
timing this so you have in one system
you have a system that is giving that
massive productivity to the world our
our podcast right now
is is essentially free to deliver this
content to the world the education is
free as a byproduct there's
certification is not free but educate
and this is coming into every industry
as it's it's driving as a base layer
into industry and it's moving faster and
faster and faster or exponential
but it's connected to a system that
cannot allow that that abundance to
transfer broadly to us
because if you allow
deflation in a in an inflationary system
then their credit that this system is
built on
collapses and you have a deflationary
spiral and what that deflationary spiral
would wipe out all credit
so you have this paradox
on one hand technology should be really
good for us and it should be saving our
time everywhere and we should be getting
more for less but the paradox is we're
measuring it from a system that requires
a system that we live in to grow forever
so that means more jobs higher
higher pay and a transfer of wealth from
from middle class and poor to the rich
and then then the transfer keeps going
and that transfer of power to government
to make all decisions that's kind of
where we are in the system caused by two
systems colliding each to each other
and and
and well it's easy to look at
as a system level problem and blame
people like the fed or
or anybody else in the system
what
if you yourself
missed if you didn't hold apple or so if
you didn't hold apple from the beginning
to where it is now
um or amazon from five dollars to where
it is now
or or
you're you're making the same mistake
and you didn't hold those because you
misunderstood the what what's happening
with technology underneath if you
misunderstood it's easy we think we we
can and everybody else can't
so why would it be any different for a
central banker
why would it be any different for
anybody in an existing system that grew
up an entire system and is measuring
that system
to misunderstand what's happening with
technology it's normal yeah that's
pretty you you've brought me down a
different path that i was going to take
this but
it's it's always such a way you you see
so many profound things that are really
hard
to wrap your head around but they
trigger more questions so let's double
click into that whole
deflation story so technology drives
deflation things get better cheaper
faster etc
investing whether it's money printing or
people investing whatever chasing fewer
goods drives inflation
now
kathy woods kathy wood invests in
disruption
and she's a big believer in deflation
but it's not happening at the rate she
thought it would
so can you help us figure out this
conundrum and if you look at like her
tech stock choices they've gotten
hammered this year so far because she
placed the bet on deflation and
deflationary forces
and i don't know if she's admitted it
yet but she hasn't seen the level of
inflation that we actually have and
lived through today which i see
continuing like her and i agree on
everything except for this one point
this is by the way this is actually the
problem that people get caught in and
they're measuring a time period that is
too short and so just ask yourself to
simplify that question to simplify that
question what would happen today
if all governments around the world
stopped easing
yeah the gdp would tank
immediately
growth growth rates growth of gdp would
tank and and all credit would collapse
yeah
and it would so it would you would have
a deflationary spiral that would be
picking up speed and ever and and it
would it would accelerate
until the kind of
the the laws of nature fell to the
actual pace to where what's actually
happening today so you have these two
systems working
against each other one requires more and
more stimulus on a greater curve
offsetting
what's happening to deflationary and
pressure underneath but we don't see it
because we're measuring from the system
that's that's offsetting that deflation
so you have to ask yourself remove the
the artificial stimulus
and what would the world look like
so that's what kathy is saying now
double click on that
if you keep on artificially stimulating
qe
you're actually robbing productivity
from the market
because you're transferring to
government and government has to get
bigger and bigger and bigger and you're
removing the free market
and it's subpar for for so there's less
and less industry
that can can move also because prices
are being pushed up
naturally
businesses must even in the short term
you don't see even because supply chains
get havoc and everything else but
businesses must to compete remove labor
faster
so you these two systems moving further
and further apart
and what kathy is missing
is and and so the more you stay more you
try to drive that inflationary
environment the more you're actually
feeding the deflationary one
and then in and now the question is
timing the question is
so today prices went up in the in the
stock market why they go up in the stock
market is because china's easing to be
able to save evergrand and everything
else would be the cascading collapse and
wherever the easing is in the world it
has to find itself back into the
monetary system
no matter no matter where
and so
what's what's happening
as a result of that no matter where it
is we're measuring the system
from the system
and and you just to be able to clear
that in your mind what would happen what
would the net what would the market look
like without manipulation
exactly so that is a pleasure and so
what kathy is what kathy is is
essentially
wrong or missed timing on
is
when this pushes up so high
that it moves into deflationary
environment anyways or the only way to
save the inflationary
environment
is to capture all control and government
and keep going
so
again
front another question so imagine if
there was a deflationary world
would there be any incentive for people
to spend because in a true deflationary
world
you know what drives the economy if cash
savings grow and purchasing power is
free forever
i love that question because it starts
to double click again
our brains don't hang on to concepts
that that we haven't seen before
it's new it's novel and what i'm saying
is going to be really hard to hang on to
because you don't have a pattern
developed in the world that hasn't
reinforced on that pattern it's like
it's like you hear every conversation in
a room even if you're just talking to me
but if somebody else does your name
you'll tune into their conversation
what this conversation is like is all
the other conversations in the room
until you've heard it enough times
because yeah and and so so so
from that
will people purchase now ask yourself is
uh uh uh
that that question
would you purchase a new iphone
even though that you know
there's gonna be a better one the next
year
of course you would
would would you purchase food if you
know that there could be more food next
year of course you would would you
purchase a tv would you put yours it's a
whole bunch of things purchasing might
go down
but
and it might go down because we'll buy
the things we need more
but it but it'll
to to believe that inflation is required
for purchasing
is essentially this if you double click
on that
the only reason i purchase
is because somebody's stealing my money
it's insane productivity productivity in
the in the world the product product
productive economy doesn't require theft
and so if you steal my money faster i'll
i'll purchase more that may be true
today in the world we live in from the
system we live in today because people
but but even that
is becoming less and less true because
the purchasing isn't going into things
it's going into assets
that are that are destroying a
productive economy
to be able to capture
essentially save more purchasing power
for later through assets
yeah unbelievable so let's
related to that if you take
the mathematical certainty i've heard
you saying these terms before
and when i look at the scenario of money
money printing and talk about the fed or
central banks all over the world or
china easing
um there is that gdp tipping point you
probably heard about it before i think
was from the world bank the 77 percent
magic number basically if a an economy
borrows more than 77 of gdp
they can't
escape
there's no no longer any escape
philosophy to get out of that because
the servicing of that debt will eat away
at the gdp
so what do you think about that and
it is the only way i think i think you
know the answer to the question is to
just to keep on money printing and to
keep the cost of debt servicing down
which means we live in a stage of
perpetual low interest rates going
forward from here with
quantitative easing that's managed some
way or another
again the this is
why these are hard to see is people
people don't think in systems uh they
think in individual parts of a system
and it's hard to see the whole system
so if you if you think about
let's let's go through the options today
so the options from central banking from
the system
globally
door one
let the free market work
that would have a deflationary
depression
and and it wouldn't be the deflation i'm
talking about in in the book where
productivity is is broadly transferred
to society it would be a debt deflation
like the great depression on steroids
but because the entire system is built
on that debt
every bank would fail there would be no
food on shelves there would be it would
be
an into that vacuum
would rise dictators
and that's the 280 over 70 280 trillion
of debt
servicing the global 70 trillion of gdp
exactly exactly so so if you let if you
let that
credit if you let that system because
it's based on credit if you allow
deflation the credit explodes in value
or certainly it codes in pre and you can
never re-service that credit so it gets
wiped out you have a credit crisis but
the system is credit
and it keeps on unwinding
so people that think they have money in
the bank that's actually a credit in in
instrument the banks close
and it um and it keeps on unwinding
we're number one unfortunately but
that's where we are door number two
is
ease forever
but easing forever by by by lowering
lowering interest rates pretending i'm
going to raise them one day but having
to lower them again even what's
happening today right the the head fakes
on on raising them but having to lower
them perpetually forever because the
credit must grow forever to protect an
inflationary environment which is
exactly against the
kind of where technology is going
by doing that
you transfer a whole bunch of wealth
from the middle class and poor to the
rich
and and
and because there's way more middle
class and poor number of people
they rise up against the rich
or elect other people to be able to say
it's the rich's fault to be able to to
do this and you have you have a turning
of society because the many away the few
and what ends up happening is is you
change leaders in a system that must
still manipulate money to protect the
system
to make it worse but they create a whole
bunch of
essentially us versus them through that
system
which which resets typically if you look
at the long arc of history
through revolution and war essentially i
need get elected by turning one par part
of my population the bigger part of my
population against the smaller part of
my population
and then to stay elected i need to
create a bigger enemy outside of my
gates
and so that's what that's what these
resets look like throughout
kind of the long arc of history but the
problem is we've never had that reset
that type of reset
with
the weapons of destructions and where
technology is going today
so and that global conflict that would
arise from that type of is a pretty
scary
thing to think of and worse
we don't see it coming
we're
i've said this often on a couple other
podcasts but it's it's really important
when you think about hitler rising into
power because of the same
hyperinflationary environment that was
created
and who he turned to the population
against
but you you can see kind of that what
happens throughout uh through throughout
this cycle but worse than that is we all
believe
our minds don't change and and and
we understand the truth perfectly but
nobody else does
what ends up happening through that
manipulation is people are turned
against other people and if you ask
yourself
forget about hitler
how did the entire how did an entire
population not stand up and do something
about
about that when you created the trust of
the atrocities to other people
and then they they either helped
or stayed silent
and that is unfortunately human nature
in a system
that requires manipulation
we get manipulated
and so we will some of these things have
really profound implications for where
the world's going because when you have
corruption and money as a result of
having corruption and money you must
have corruption everywhere in society
so those are door number one door number
two
and so what you have today is is you
have
government's trying to run financial
repression
and and inflate so your real dollars are
going uh going down in va in in value
and they're trying to hold you into a
system
to to run that financial
uh repression
in in the
i think in the 40s it worked for the us
but the u.s was a superpower at that
time and there wasn't another challenger
today when it that's how that's
happening with china and the bank and
everything else and the type of global
conflicts that are going to rise from
that it's not possible
plus
you have bitcoin that is an escape valve
from that
from that financial repression so it's
really hard to lock people into into
currencies why people don't see it is
because they measure everything in the
currency they're denominated in exactly
they buy more houses they buy more
everything else that and some people are
getting so rich by that experiment
i leverage up i buy more assets
they don't see the next wave of this
when revolution comes to take that asset
back or politicians take it back and
redistribute distribute it
so or they have no comprehension of a 15
hurdle rate for example
exactly
so they think they're getting richer
when in fact they're getting poorer and
created and creating the divide of
society
and they in a lot of those people
think it's because of their brilliance
that they're getting richer
in in real estate when and as rents are
going up and
you're pushing pain on more of society
and then those people in society go and
elect people that say
i got an idea
let's do ubi
right and i'm going to push up prices
higher
and transfer more wealth because where
does the money come from in the first
place and so i'm going to pick your
pocket more to give you uh give you a
working wage to push prices up higher so
that's where we are in this system
and so there's only really those two
doors except say and we can go into
bitcoin but the bitcoin is is the first
time in history that we've had a third
door so so speaking of door number one
and door number two so when they talk
about threatening tapering or raising
interest rates they're just playing with
our heads or
will they reduce by 12 and a half
percent for a couple of months and then
wait for an
external event and then increase
quantitative easing again
yeah so so
so again when we get to these things and
in in in your in all of this
the simplest thing to say if you just
don't
is
all of this creates more instability in
a system
and more instability in us because we're
in that system
as we look around to try to figure out
what's going on
your podcast is probably so valuable
because you interview people on this and
so and people are looking for what's
going on and is creating more and more
instability and people are
you you've probably seen me say this
which snowflake causes the avalanche
um and people are people are trying to
measure which snowflake
and they're in their grasping at this
and this and they're all over the place
the simplest thing to say is
the system demands
more easing
that will create more instability in a
system and i don't know at what time
brings the whole thing
down it could be anything there's more
and more snowflakes gathering all the
time
so you touched on ubi i didn't expect to
go down the ubi path but do you believe
it's a foregone conclusion
i think if you just simply say
there's more of them more people being
left out
than than than today that are that are
in um
that
they have not outnumber the house
and and
the fed will be
merged
with treasury
over over time as as rules change
because because the many will elect
people will that will will create a
populist movement that's
highly likely all over the world
and i noticed a very funny stat just
yesterday that
the percentage of gdp of external debt
total debt of usa and canada is exactly
the same percentage did you ever notice
that 141 percent i didn't notice that no
it's 140 is it rigged or canada and the
us and cahoots right now
if you think about it it's canada is a
is a raw materials uh
base most of the exports kind of
raw materials
and you print money
then raw materials go up in relation
yeah it's like i ran i ran a scenario i
looked at some uh treasury numbers that
looked at the increase of household
wealth
but since basically january 2020 and
today
and you looked at the amount of
quantitative easing the 40 increase of
the money supply and that directly
translated to increasing household
wealth the problem is in the top nine to
top one percent get it it doesn't it
doesn't trickle down and that's that's
where we're stuck so let's um because if
you think about that too and and so
inflation yeah the other side of the
coin for inflation is wage deflation yep
right so it's it's it's a so if you have
savings or you're working for wages
your real income is going down
and so no wonder
it and the more assets you have the more
of the transfer
exactly you touched on china as well and
china as you know has more ust bills
treasury bills than the u.s balance
sheet
so and china has started selling t-bills
to other nations is there concern china
will become the dominant currency
especially with the digi-1 coming
forward what do you envision
um
so so i think it was in 2016
china realized that uh that the u.s
wasn't going to pay their back their
loans essentially uh vendor financing
um as as as you and it was a decent
trade the u.s
to keep interest rates low
china bought u.s currency
bonds um because if interest rates went
up at that at the time
then uh then the u.s would have
collapsed and and and china would have
subsequently collapsed too purchasing
nation exporting nature nation
and so but about 2016 i think maybe 2015
china stopped buying the the
the t-bills and said wait this is going
to happen why don't we buy assets
instead
rare earth mines all of the all of the
critical assets for the infrastructure
build to the other side
where do we get where do we get
political
gain belt and road and um and everything
else where do we take this money and put
it somewhere else so we have we it can't
be destroyed in value but more so we
have more control over the next phase of
where this going which when i said
creates tensions war machine everything
else because that's what that's
effectively what it does
um
and and so
so
essentially u.s doing that faster
printing more money faster drives this
divide faster and faster and faster now
i do not believe that the world is going
to switch to
replace the u.s currency with the
digital one
but i do believe certain people will
and that'll quit and that'll create
these
major polarized states
that
turn into
world war
exactly that's so funny i did did this
in the video probably two or three
months ago i talked about
world war three could be potentially i
don't want to alarm anybody out there
but could be potentially triggered
by kind of a quasi-currency war
those that force certain nation-states
around the world to use and embrace
certain currencies will drive that war
for example the activities of china and
africa right now building railroads and
mines etc they are clearly the content
of africa will clearly go will be forced
to go down the digital one route and
then the u.s
uh reserve currency but then there'll be
a third currency i hate to use the term
currency for bitcoin but that will be
bitcoin so it'll be us dollar one and
bitcoin and those three will fight out
amongst themselves do you envision
such a
weird future i i i do
um to to facilitate global trade you
have to have a measuring unit that isn't
all over the map yeah that is being
manipulated but today we have
measuring units as being manipulated
everywhere or here's
um
if you look back through the long arc of
history
and people say that a currency failure
happens every 80 years or 80 to 100
years today
and it used to happen over a much longer
time period like i mean 2000 years ago
it took a lot a lot longer and why might
that be
and and i have a thesis on this
and it is the same thesis that's in my
book technology has always been moving
it's always been a force for deflation
but it happened very slowly
very slowly throughout time and it's
speeding up
faster and faster so the great turning
that people talk about every 80 years
it's not necessarily every 80 years
it happens as a result of our personal
need
to believe
we can get something we can get more
than we can actually get so we'll vote
people in if somebody said listen i only
have this much money to be able to pay
for this this services we would never
vote that person in we'll vote for
somebody and that will lie to us hide
that lie and limit it to inflation
and build a system on inflation on top
of that that the lie must get bigger and
bigger tied greater expanding services
that do everything what we're talking
and then it gets into a long debt cycle
that has to reset
so that if you look at through
the historic lens i think that's
actually what's happening technology has
been moving faster and faster all the
time even going back to roman days right
and technology's been moving faster and
faster so you get these events you get
these clearing things and now you
if now you wind that back to 1971. the
u.s dollar probably would have failed in
1971.
had had they not
tied energy to oil
so it took us dollar to oil which was
energy
and and
and because of the war machine to be
able to saudi arabia and the in the in
the pact if you were outside of that oil
for us dollar system you were cut off
from trade for the world
look at what it looks like in venezuela
look what it looks like in in any
country who's tried to get off that
system look look what happened in iraq
when iraq talked about pricing oil in
europe
and so
so when you think about that system
today it extended us dollar dominance
for another call it 50 years
as
it moved around
and it tied
us dollars to energy
in price and oil well well now china is
a bigger player
and can muscle muscle in and price and
try to price oil and raw materials and
one or they're trying
as well as
the energy transition to bitcoin
bitcoin is pricing energy and it's
pricing the energy transition and it's a
more effective transition because it
actually doesn't require the war machine
to price it
so
so so
effectively what it says is all
currencies break down at some point from
the exact same thing that creates the uh
that creates this
and why
because the human loop in currencies we
want to believe that we can get
something we want to believe we don't
want to believe in inflation
but we it's easy to believe in inflation
and it allows
allows
governments to spend more than they can
which has to accelerate
fantastic let's play a game so i built
out this uh model actually in
preparation for a breed love interview
so it looks like looks at the money
printing
rate
money printing acceleration rate and
then it calculates a whole bunch of
stuff like purchasing power debasement
value of a million dollars value of a
home and all that type of stuff and
assumes bitcoin appreciates it 33 per
year
what do you think is the sustainable
quantitative easing rate we will see
going forward we've seen 25 per year 40
over 20 months etc etc but what do you
think the bare minimum is and do you
believe in the theory that it has to
accelerate as we get
bigger and bigger in terms of debt
absolutely absolutely so so so from that
and i think there's a paragraph in my
book that talks about this if one system
is moving down in an exponential rate
the technology is driving kind of what
should be happening then the system has
to
move up at an exponential rate so if you
look at money pinching through that lens
and even the stats that i pulled out in
my book there there was 185 trillion of
debt and preceding 20 years to
increase global gdp by 46 trillion
you know that that number has to to keep
on increasing global gdp has to ex it
has to be exponential in function and so
what are we seeing today remember my
book was written before all of this
happened and that was a 4x at that time
what is it now yeah so what is it now
and it's hard to even it's hard to even
fathom yeah and and so at some point
winter is coming because it's completely
unstable and in how
the only way the system could continue
this way
the only way is and remember because
artificial intelligence and eventually
effective effectively
one day artificial general intelligence
lower and lower costs on robotics the
merging of those two things and
everything else and the labor
taking away of that
if you don't allow the natural force of
technology to through a currency that
allows for deflation
to move broadly to society
you must keep concentrating it in few
hands
and if you just pull on that thread what
you have to think about is who is the
person
pick a person's face that you want as
supreme leader of the world
or or two or three of them fighting with
each other for all all control because
that's actually where if this system was
was able to to essentially distort all
pricing by continue to manipulate
forever
that's where it go that's where it goes
it concentrates more and more wealth in
very few hands and and it looks like for
everybody else like modern day slavery
and we're seeing that with the jeff
bezos and elon musk's of the world and
google people like you see the huge
concentration of wealth
tied directly to technology
then what happens from there is because
there's fuel and here's the risk that
they don't see
um
when there's very few of them that have
the money then it won't it it will
likely be
a political class or dictat that comes
in and take it and takes that and takes
and and takes the business away takes
everything look look what's happening to
china right now in the technology
companies yeah dd etc yeah yeah you have
to you have to take back that power and
concentrate it in government
you you you must and and and the will of
the people will give you that power to
be able to do it change constitution
change all laws change to give you more
power to take away their individual
rights and freedoms so
are are we seeing a preview of the
dystopian world right now playing out in
china
absolutely
digital one or central bank digital
currency
it um it is money disguised as
surveillance
or surveillance disguised as money
yeah and so it's it it is a full control
state
where you better toe the line and
remember that line that you toe that you
might opt for in the beginning
can change unilaterally you could get
shut out of it
unilaterally look at what's happened to
hong kong
and it's funny i i see that with the
cbdc it's like it's almost like a
nuclear arms race
that i lived part way through when i was
a young man
and i see the
sovereign states
rushing to deploy and i don't care if
it's israel or some place in africa or
china or you name it the bank of england
everybody wants their cbdc now the
question is two questions one
will that accelerate the rush
to
become your own sovereign bank yourself
through bitcoin or
will people just be sucked into it and
then
it'll be that dystopian future that you
see
a la china
my optimistic case and what uh and what
what everybody in bitcoin must think
about uh
as well
these
these moves
are more powerful than we give them
credit
and so so and it's because a whole bunch
of people are locked into fear
and they can't and and once you're
locked into fear and you believe it's
somebody else's fault
you'll reinforce that that that
narrative and you'll be in and you'll
move into hate to first kind of despair
hate and everything else and you will be
turned
kind of into a pawn of the state
and it happens fairly easily um
i wish it didn't but it um
so so that system is doing that right
now i think about th
this if everybody around the world that
was marching against covet which is a
natural response to what's kind of work
that has to happen and it's a derivative
of a lot of this forget co i'm not being
a conspiracy theorist with covet but the
system must have more control
if everybody that was rising against
covert or global warming or anything
else
um
uh rose up and bought bitcoin
instead they would have their individual
rights and freedoms back and we would be
moving to a different system instead
they're standing up and giving more
power to the system because a lot of
people in that system will say we need
to print more money
to be able to hire police states to
protect us from those people
so if every if everybody was sovereign
they wouldn't protest is that what
you're saying yeah so so so what they
would realize is they actually have more
power in the system change than they
actually realize
because because it defunds the
government the government doesn't have
as much power and and that that power
comes from the from printing of money
to be able to take the power from you
it comes from the
uh from the exact very same the same
thing
so
so but but are in but if you think about
human bias and human and and what we
think in systems how many people are
actually investigating what we're
talking about at the root cause versus
talking about all the symptoms
and getting wound up against the system
very few people are talking about it
from a system um and so
door three my my hope on door three
might and what i do what what
happy to do these things because it's so
important for our kids future and
everything else
is door three is
every single thing we live in today
including this phone
right including um
including the technology we're using
today was an idea in somebody's mind
first
everything including the system we live
in
and if we believe that a system must be
based on a fraud and inflation if the
greater majority believes that and
reinforces that system
that's the system we live in
but if people walk to the other side and
that was what bitcoin
provides is actually a different idea
it's a different system
and it's a system that i believe is
based on truth hope and everything else
and and as people start to imagine a new
idea and what a future world could look
like on on that idea
we change and so what's actually
happening uh right now and and maybe you
from my book and a whole bunch of other
people and other people coming in
this idea
if you just measure the number of people
growing in bitcoin and the network
effect on bitcoin this and the number of
people now building to it and the
technology and what people don't see
kind of that's coming all of the
innovation that's still to come
is people walking across the bridge a
new new idea emerging
and people grabbing onto that idea not
because there's a marketing department
behind bitcoin
because the idea is so important
it's so important to transfer from one
system to another system and the
existing system can't allow it can't
allow the transfer so hopefully
as one system flails and makes uh makes
ore more people will start walking
across walking across the bridge to
bitcoin and as they're walking across
the bridge they're actually paving the
bridge for society to walk
to to walk across the other side you
need a transmission mechanism from one
side to the other because the existing
system can't give it so i try to stay
out of the rhetoric about
about
it's a transmission mechanism and it's a
transmission mechanism like most
technology is
yeah
interesting before we leave cbdc's and
then i'm going to talk about paving the
bridge because i like that analogy
i had an interview last week with raul
paul
and one of the things that stunned me
from that interview was he saw a lot of
benefits from cbtc's for society by
personalizing monetary policy and he saw
that as a big plus
can you tell me how you believe cbdc's
are dangerous slash bad for society
so under the existing system under the
existing inflationary monetary system
cbdc's will be terrible for society
because it must it must distort money
further and further take individual
rights and freedoms from
control and it must and it'll say
what what they'll say is we need to do
it to protect your property rights from
that evil china coming after you
that's what that's what will likely
happen in a bunch of so
so again from the system there is no fix
from the system
without
more distortion
more manipulation more
power control to the few from the many
and eventually it's kind of destroying
what we know there is no capital when
you distort money at this level there is
no free market so we i grew up in
something that i believed was a free
market an entrepreneurial talent trying
to deliver more value to other people
and you're only successful if you
deliver more value
that is largely gone today it's still
i have a hard time because i'm an
entrepreneur and that's what i do
to say it's completely gone there is
ways to to to create value for other
people and do it very well but largely
we live assist in a system of corruption
it is greater and greater corruption
that makes that thing harder
um
so
i see that let me pause on that for a
second i saw a very surprising activity
from the president of the united states
not saying anything bad or getting
political here
but he spoke publicly about how great
general motors as a car company is now
this is no ding against general motors
but he completely ignored the elephant
in the room which is tesla
and i just thought that was
so strange
and obviously
that is
could be construed as corruption because
he must hate elon musk for some reason
or the fact that he
you know
hosts the term panders to the union
workers
and tesla's not union but would you
construe that as kind of corruption
within government
so i have a hard time today and this is
where the
uh this um
i'm not waffling on this conversation
but
on this question but i have a hard time
because the line is so blurred with who
actually knows and who doesn't
but
but
both right and left hand side of
politics
what what party would say we're going to
stop printing we're going to advise the
fed to stop printing
and and no party would because
the the what i said the entire
deflationary spiral will take place
everything would collapse i'm not even
encouraging them to do that from the
existing system
but but nobody would say that in other
words every single thing at the root is
is based on and we're all questioning is
it a free market union are all these
other things
and the root is rotten
and everybody so when you have
corruption and money and money is just
an
arbitrary concept for our time we don't
want more money we want what we think
more money will buy us
more time
so when you destroy money you destroy
our time
and and so what would society look like
under those conditions and what would
society look like if the corruption of
money had to grow at an exponential pace
you can see every everything that has to
happen out of that simple construct in a
lens so then you ask about okay what
would biden do on top of that what would
trump do on top of that it's just
nonsense it's just completely nonsense
because
because
if they know
what would they say
and if they don't if they don't know um
then
then again it's such a deep problem that
people are focused on on the symptoms
okay excellent before we jump into
bitcoin one final thing um i think i
heard you touch on it before and i'm
fascinated by it again
uh the president of the united states
said the infrastructure bill would be a
deflationary force which is completely
ridiculous because of how much it costs
but we leave that but the connection
between
spending
quantitative easing and climate change
and the fact that we're talking about
innovation in different systems how do
you mash all that together in your head
you said once i think that
quantitative easing causes climate
change doesn't cure it
yeah so inflation is climate change um
and and that's a hard concept to grasp
again
living into a system that requires us to
grow forever
so simply
on a finite planet
can you grow forever by manipulating
money
and what would it look like
so you would cause constraints
everywhere
right you'd cause exactly what we're
saying and you would cause people to
need more jobs more and more and more
and more and buy more and more things
forever
all because you're manipulating money
to be able to keep up with the right
with the prices that are being
manipulated higher so more and more
people would be forced into this loop
to keep price is rising forever
because otherwise the credit based
system collapses that's the system we're
in
i'm i am on a whole bunch of technology
boards and i can tell you for sure
these technology companies
in food agriculture everything else a
bunch of different technology
companies that give us an abundance in
food and agriculture
that drastically reduce prices give you
more for less now some of those aren't
visible to everybody in the world yet
they're not but they're coming
and they get better and better and
better through technology automation ai
but they've already cracked the code one
of them has already cracked the code
it's much cheaper to localize let us
produce it locally without a supply
chain than it is to import lettuce from
california or
um something like that already cracked
it
now ai automation everything
that comes makes that cheaper and
cheaper and cheaper more quality less
less cost on it on an exponential scale
that's already happening
that is deflationary
so it gives you more for less and it
solves a whole bunch of your needs
by doing so
um other companies very similar that and
i can't and i look around all of this
stuff and i think
every one of them if they're successful
creates abundance
creates more for less every single one
of them if they're not successful they
die
if they're successful by by measurement
of you
me
do i get more value here did the price
come down when i get more quality
i'll buy it and the business explodes
because of that same reason you use
google same reason we use this zoom
right now do i get more value
and it's all around and it's coming
really fast
what would the existing system do to
offset that when prices have to rise
because because those prices the natural
market wants to bring them down give you
more for less and the system that we
live in because we want our price we we
want lower for grocery prices but we
want our house price to always rise
and it's the incongruence of thought
between those two different systems
that that existing system must
essentially steal that productivity
by printing money and transferring that
money to uh to government or to or or to
big business or to any actually or to
technology companies that use it to
scale faster and faster and faster but
they must do it keep keep doing it
faster and faster and as prices rise up
more companies need to be technology
companies and remove labor faster
so
so when you when you think about it from
a system problem
how do you solve climate change
through a system that requires growth
forever and will manipulate price prices
to get get there you can't it's
impossible yeah
it's impossible but people don't see it
for their system lens they
see it as
as uh
as one part of the system i remember you
did a presentation i think it was may
have been in europe or somewhere but
there was a slide and it was a goldfish
in a bowl
that's the system and i love that
because i could relate to that and you
can imagine one system with one goldfish
in a bowl and maybe another goldfish and
another bowl two separate systems that
have no idea what's going on in each
other's system so i think that's where
you're coming from okay let's switch
gears let's talk um you have this unique
ability to connect dots from money
to bitcoin
that's what everyone's here i'm all
about bitcoin so how many dots are there
for us to get to hyper bitcoinization
um we talked about some of them already
that bridge
and and i personally think it's it's in
in bitcoin it's more of an an emergent
phenomenon
in other words
our minds believing in something and
then creating that
to happen and and as that's happening
more and more minds starting to wake up
out of the fog
move out of the goldfish
ball and realize
i didn't understand this and so how many
dots there are to connect to to uh to
bitcoin you could come in from the
technology road you could come in from
game theory you could come in from
from
it's the only thing to solve climate
change is the only way to solve climate
change you could saw it come in from
every different path but what's
happening and i use you as an example
the the
the
really really smart people
that they're taking this message and
they're moving it out and more and more
people connecting and and you you know
the kind of saying in bitcoin don't
trust verify yeah
and and i have not yet seen anything in
bitcoin
that that that
that is a counter to
uh that would give me reason for pause
in in in bitcoin so there's no fud
there's no anything else that doesn't
actually
make my conviction stronger in bitcoin
and i'm not saying that to to say
maybe there's not something else that i
haven't seen today or they're not open
to possibilities
of something else solving this
bridge to the other side but there's
nothing i've seen um
today that solves this and so most of
the conversations so when you when
you're verifying that at this level
and you have really curious driven
people to be able to
hold that truth out
it gets stronger and stronger and
stronger and nothing that attacks it
can it makes it stronger so china
removing mining capacity
and three months later you have more
hash rate on bitcoin a network is
evidence for what happens
for what happens with with this network
and it's indestructible so i'll throw
you a curveball actually on that one so
if you look at the top one percent of
earth they own 90 of wealth
so why what incentive is there for them
to put their money into bitcoin and line
the pockets of the early bitcoin
adopters
it seems like an undeserved wealth
transfer so i love that question
um because you have to solve it from a
different uh a different standpoint
um and the question is not what it
what do we care about those people
because those people are enriching from
a system that it that it is it has
negative externalities to the rest of
the world
so it's not those people
what it is is
what what you think about and think
about this from a monopoly how does a
monopoly protect their monopoly
and what happens when technology changes
the rules so let's just say the money
monopoly money today costs a whole bunch
of dollars to transfer it's high network
fees everything else built on debt and
corresponding banks and everything else
and this huge embedded cost into that
system
and it requires this inflationary system
to be able to continue to go and
everybody in that system the closer you
are to the money printer the more wealth
you gain the further away the more the
the the more that you lose just
um and now you have a technology
that's lowered the access costs and
opened to everybody
what was it
have there been other technologies that
have lowered access costs yes for the
world and what do they look like today
so let's look at what google did versus
television networks
you used to if you had a monopoly in a
business you used to be able to crowd
out new businesses because they couldn't
afford to advertise on television and
everybody was on t everybody was
watching the same channels
at night so you had an effective
monopoly by control of the airwaves by
pricing other people out very hard as a
new business to get into that when
google came into town i can tell you
because i am i built to google really
early
with free traffic
and the and in the lowered cost period
and did the giants of advertisers
advertise on google nope
they didn't build to it and so companies
like mine exploded in growth
because
new
cost of communication cost of
advertising he fell to the floor
raced in to be able to create a new
technology and the world looked
different as a result
the laggers to that system
were the were the big monopoly powers
and a lot of those laggards aren't even
in business today yep
right so you created that and what
happened
technology lowered the access cost
technology opened the doors it
created a level fee
field and it changed the rules
for the monopoly and the monopoly
couldn't deal with the change because
they're they're
they were in
they were protected
by the rules of the old system
now let's the only difference right now
is that's happening to money which is a
meta level across everything else so
creative destruction is coming for money
so putting it another way if you snooze
you lose it's like the game theory of
bitcoin you got to get in early
and and and you can get in any time but
but but the the corresponding benefit
will be less like uh
later on and and so
same thing on who were the first people
on amazon shelves
they weren't people that had access to
walmart shelves they were and and
because there's way more people that are
underprivileged from an existing
monopoly and especially today as as a
monopoly of power and money gets
concentrated more and more there's way
more people that are underprivileged
from that
and that access and that access moves
and what that access does from the
bottom up
is drives innovation and more and more
innovation across the new network
creates the network effect that brings
more and more people on essentially the
road across to the other side of the
side
so now
zooming back
zooming back out
it's no surprise that a country like el
salvador
would go first
because
that their negative externality of what
their economy looks like
is our positive externality
the western union is taking 40 percent
etc so
not just that but we but we have a
finance system and greg foss talks about
this you can get a credit card rate as a
business for two percent
you can't do that in in el salvador that
credit card rate is a business might be
eight or ten percent and so the walls
that that gate to control the monopoly
are so much higher now you take bitcoin
and it's
point zero zero zero two percent or
something like that is essentially a
fraction of a cost why wouldn't every
business and um embed it
and exactly you're reduced and so as
those businesses embed it and they build
it they build that network effect and it
gets stronger and stronger and other
countries look over and say wow what's
going on in that economy
and they started embedding it and it's
so that but that's just the nature of
technology and it's very hard to see
from the monopoly or the privilege we in
the western world
we
billionaires or or multi-millionaires
are the privileged
few
so it's very hard for those for those
people to to see what we're talking
about but that's what technology does
all the time
so do you see a potential scenario where
bitcoin could go to zero and what would
the probability be at this point in time
i know the lindy effect has the network
effect etc has made it better and
stronger more resilient but is there
anything
that you believe could take it to zero
i don't think so
yeah i i i
i i think
i'm getting more convinced that it's
inevitable that it keeps on taking kind
of its moves across and and consumes
every asset class over time and it
becomes
but it's uh but no i don't think
anything takes it to zero so i remember
2020 started with a bang in terms of
like treasury adoption
and then 2021 has kind of gone out with
a whimper
any idea as to why like you got your
squares and your teslas and your micro
strategies all adopting it as a treasury
asset and
30 40 other companies
but nobody else since then
um i think what you'd find i think what
you're gonna find it in behind the
scenes is there are a lot of people a
lot of boards i'm on a bunch of boards i
can tell you this is a very regular
conversation um and and so
i can imagine this
this is happening
um
at a rate we might not see it because
we're measuring in too slow in into a
high time frame we want it to happen
right now
but i bet you going into 2021 nobody
would have expected el salvador to adopt
it as a as a currency right it seems
like time yeah it seems like time frames
are a theme we need to as humans we need
to wrap our heads around
lindy and time frames much better to be
able to understand this exponent
exponentiality of this world we live in
today
yeah if you look at the on-chain metrics
and you look at the rate of growth of
nothing's changed nothing has changed
it's it's accelerating it's uh um and if
you and and and so is the technology
that's coming into it i've been asked a
number of times one specifically
about 100 million dollar fund to only
invest in it would i would join as an
advisor to only invest in bitcoin
related companies and lightning related
companies and there's entire network
there's an entire ecosystem that's
that's building
there so you can imagine what's happened
happening and and that's one of many
and capital is rushing in because they
see what's happening i've been watching
the capital rushing and it's
mind-blowing the billions and billions
that triggers another question in my
mind do you think layer twos on bitcoin
have a shot of competing with the likes
of ethereum solana avalanche etc
100
one like
that's in
in fact
i can't see
it i got to be careful here i'm totally
in a free market of people investing in
whatever they they want to um in
ethereum and other other altcoins i
can't see the long-term rationale for
ethereum at all i can't see the
long-term rationale for many of these if
if people wanted to day trade and see
tons of risk in that too
um but
but i think bitcoin and the
corresponding ecosystem
is going to take it all
one of the things that i deal with and i
come from kind of
hedging
futures derivatives background
do you believe that there is a potential
for a government or a series of entities
like the jp morgans of the world to try
and suppress
bitcoin price
over time over long periods of time is
it legitimate
like through a futures market yeah
um
so so yes
um the simply yes but but what would
happen is by doing so
people would see that they're doing that
and i think it would cause
a cra crazy
for a time and then it would break
because of because of what would happen
do you ever think there could come a
time where
you know putting futures leverage
manipulation whale manipulation aside
that
bitcoin pricing and price discovery
could ever go back to basic supply and
demand
that's what i think it will happen
that's what i hope that's what i hope
will happen so so there's a question a
lot of people ask about okay
so what if we transferred the wealth
from these people to these people
what would the society look like so if
you built a credit based system on top
of bitcoin that looked a lot like the
credit based system today
yes it would still if you'd over
leveraged it would be wiped out to zero
and there'd be no but but you can
imagine it it is simple explanation
think about just in mining
what if what if one company could
concentrate because of the massive
leverage and they could essentially buy
all the asics and and they could
concentrate the network right as a
result of that that massive leverage
so
i
and today we're going to have a whole
bunch of experiments and people trying
leverage and everything else and
comparing one system that requires
massive leverage and thinking the system
will look the same on the other side
it won't
it's going to if eventually people are
going to pay in bitcoin
and you want that to happen because it's
actually the only way to transfer
what i'm talking about with the
technology to be able to create
broad-based abundance it's only the only
way to allow the free market to work
yeah one of the things that keeps me
awake at night is people that are
dependent on the fiat system i know a
lot of people in their late 50s 60s they
have maybe 300 000 in the bank and
that's that's their future
what happens or are you concerned about
people that don't have any bitcoin what
happens to those
people very i'm very concerned
in my
one of my
ceo groups
um somebody said you know three years
ago
he came to us and he implored us to buy
it it jeff never implored first really
uh i'm begging people
you must get off zero get off zero yeah
get off zero
learn learn learn about it now don't do
it because i said so but you you should
question your own bias and you should
get off zero um and and and and look
into this more getting off zero will at
least
put a foot in the door and then you can
make some decisions and everything else
on how much you want to allocate and
everything else but it's a lifeboat in
the coming storm yeah and it's a much
needed lifeboat in the coming storm it's
really important for people's family
everything else more important if they
re if people really understand it
they'll they'll understand how they're
walking across the bridge to actually
take humanity to the other side
yeah and speaking of
that and that lifeboat
um i've been watching the case-shiller
index now for nearly 30 years i don't
know if there's equivalent in canada
that is north of 24 this year so far
actually north of 24 i think in the last
10 months it's ridiculous the actual
real estate inflation but what would you
advise somebody that had neither bitcoin
or a house
how should they allocate should they
have their castle first or bitcoin first
and wait for the castle later or vice
versa
i think today it's bitcoin first
i i think is the amount of leverage
when i think about um
specifically housing
um now that's worked for a long time and
it's worked because of the inflationary
policy like nobody asks
people that believe housing goes up
forever right think of what could happen
to your mindset believing housing goes
up forever
in an environment
that over the last 20 years it took 185
trillion dollars
of the stimulus to make housing prices
go up forever
and and what might that look like if the
stimulus is changed or what or or what
might that look like if the stimulus
keeps coming
but what would society look like
now in that environment what ends up
happening is
is people
take a small down payment
of their cash and they take a small down
payment because they're so worried that
their cash is losing value houses prices
are rising faster than the houses which
is a design of the system
and so they're scared so and they need a
house
so they so they they take a small and
they lever everything to that house
um and now they're trapped
now they're
bills that they can't and now they're
trapped in a system
that if there is any waiver
they are they are trapped their job has
to be
supported support the two jobs probably
to be able to
pay for that and everything else
and so
because this is a different system and
it's early in that new system it's early
in the network effect just ask yourself
where was the internet in 1997
that's where we are in bitcoin
most of the most of this is coming so i
would start i would start in bitcoin
because i think bitcoin will
outperform every single asset class
effectively if you measure your world in
bitcoin prices will fall forever
so if when you take your bridge analogy
and we're paving the bridge for the
world
we are two and a half percent across
that bridge right now yeah yeah and it
could get and at some point it's going
to accelerate
all right
but but but actually that it's that's
probably the most important if you you
kind of use a business analogy
this same thing happened with amazon in
1999 remember the kind of the dot-com
bubbles and everything else but amazon
was what was creating this bridge to the
a different model that was way more
efficient and everybody locked out of
the system joined amazon system and it
got better and better and better and
they added more products but now imagine
point in time 19.99 instead of
imagine amazon only sells books or books
and toys and a couple other things
and every retail store collapses and you
can't buy groceries
that's the problem with what people are
making a mistake on in bitcoin today
they're they're thinking well how could
this be used as a currency what would
happen because they're they're thinking
of a total collapse of one system
and a system that is not yet ready
for the transition
yeah but what what's what is happening
is that system is getting more and more
bulletproof more and more people are
using it it's
gaining adoption and more businesses are
integrating it and the ux is getting
easier and wallet adoption and now you
can have wallets on your phone with
multi-sig and so so it the entire
ecosystem every new person in that
ecosystem technology building that
ecosystem has is making it easier to use
which is the transition from one system
to another and so going early on that
transition is important
but uh but that's the uh
that's what's happening beautiful
i know we've run really long we're at
the final
part of the interview i call this the
quick fire round and i hope you got time
for six very fast questions
they're like yes or no so would you deem
bitcoin a zero coupon bond
um no
no interesting okay
uh i always felt that crypto regulation
is bullish for the market space
your thoughts
but it is bullish for the marketplace
okay excellent gary gensler said there
is bitcoin and there is everything else
do you agree i think i know the answer
to this one i agree
if there is one thing that keeps you up
at night regarding crypto what is it
um human nature human nature to uh
and specifically human nature to be able
to divide people um from it from from a
system so how how much people discount
even in bitcoin
a a system that cr corrupts people as a
result and what people will do in that
system scares me
beautiful one of your favorite sayings
to me is you said once abundance of
money means scarcity everywhere
and scarcity of money drives abundance
everywhere
i didn't get the last piece and i know
some people don't but i'd like to hear
in your words i have a theory but how
would you
explain the last piece of that
so
so where are you where technology is
going um and so i i i try to simply
simplify this and the oxygen you breathe
is free
why is it free because it's abundant
yeah and and essentially no no
entrepreneur can create value there
because it's abundant
and so technology what it does is it
actually
decreases the the cost of production to
its marginal cost
and that's a natural force and the
marginal cost of production is moving
closer to zero all the time with
artificial intelligence and energy and
everything else
that's that's coming so that is the
natural path which creates abundance
everywhere if you don't have scarcity
and money
that abundance can't flow to society it
it gets taken
by uh by the abundance and money
creating scarcity and everything else so
they might that the money allows that to
the scarcity and money bitcoin in this
case allows that to happen for society
excellent
okay
two last questions and a final fun
question
says ton of money is being invested in
crypto you and i both live through the
1999.com bubble and ensuing crash etc
do you see earmarks telltale signs of
any similarity here
in in crypto generally yeah
yeah yeah absolutely so it's but but
yeah i see your ear marks tails signs of
that everywhere can it go on a lot
longer if there's more printing
absolutely what's what's actually
happening is you're creating a whole
bunch of people who know like think
about all the young people are
getting rich in this too
and but what they're trying to do is
they're trying to escape a system that
they know is unjust and they'll take
huge bets and risk and everything else
and if they're on the right side of that
that
it looks like a casino
um that
they'll they'll win and they'll escape
that system but that's actually what's
happening to society and you can expect
that to con continue
until it doesn't yeah like one of the
crazy examples is decentraland it's
valued at five and a quarter million
dollars per user facebook is valued at
148 dollars per user a little mismatch
there perhaps
perhaps yeah so final serious question
this is a hard one so what is the one
thing about bitcoin that you believe
in that few others do
it's actually what we talked about that
scarcity in money drives prices uh uh
down
eventually to zero
um in most in in most centers in most
industries what uh and they
because they're measuring a system from
a system so they can't uh they can't see
that but that scarcity drives deflation
which provides abundance and it means
what it means is we don't have to work
as much
to be our time is saved but there's
that's a hard thing to grasp because
people are so captured we need more more
jobs
yep excellent
that was amazing and that kind of
relates to our fishbowl example too
sister
timelapse so fun question
so if jeff were to abdicate his throne
of bitcoin king of canada
who
who would you nominate to rule
in your stead
oh there's so many good uh there's uh
craig foss i'd have to say he's
he's fantastic ben um
[Music]
is is
great and and pretty deep on this
um
i
i'll forget i'm forgetting names right
now but uh but uh but those would too
would be uh john valas those three would
be among the top
well we'd like you to stay in your
throne if you can and keep up the
brilliant work for society as a whole
jeff has been an absolute honor any
final question for me at all
no this has been an honor for me too
thanks thanks so much has been a little
bit basic people really need to hear
from you and you know get off zero
everybody listen to the man that knows
wonderful don't forget as well to follow
jeff on twitter and if you don't have a
copy of his book please get one it's
essential reading it's the book of the
century as far as i'm concerned
thank you so much mr booth
thanks thanks so much
[Music]
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