“The Most Impressive Therapy I’ve Ever Tried” — Tim Ferriss On Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation
Summary
TLDRIn this engaging discussion, the speaker shares their transformative experience with accelerated transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS), a cutting-edge mental health intervention. They delve into the technology's potential for treating conditions like OCD, depression, and anxiety, emphasizing its high efficacy and durability. The conversation highlights the importance of proper clinical application, the risks of DIY approaches, and the exciting prospects of TMS for performance enhancement and broader therapeutic use.
Takeaways
- 🧠 The speaker has experienced a significant and durable change in their mental state after trying a new mental health intervention.
- 💡 They are excited about the advancements in Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS), which has seen rapid progress in protocols and targeting.
- ⚠️ The speaker strongly advises against DIY TMS due to the risk of skin burns and worsening mental health conditions if done incorrectly.
- 🛑 There are subreddits and online resources for DIY TMS, but the speaker emphasizes the importance of professional administration to avoid harm.
- 🌟 The speaker underwent 'accelerated TMS', a condensed protocol developed by scientists like Nolan Williams from Stanford, which has shown promising results.
- 🧲 TMS involves using magnetic fields to stimulate the brain, with different technologies like helmets or paddles being used for treatment.
- 🚫 The speaker's experience with TMS has led to a significant reduction in their OCD, anxiety, and depression symptoms, to the point of no longer meeting diagnostic criteria.
- 💤 TMS has also helped with the speaker's lifelong insomnia, improving their sleep quality drastically.
- 🔍 While TMS is showing positive results, the speaker acknowledges that sample sizes are still small and there's much to learn about its long-term effects.
- 💰 The cost of accelerated TMS is currently high, ranging from $5,000 to $15,000 for a 5-day treatment, and is not typically covered by insurance.
- 🚀 The speaker believes TMS could be used for cognitive enhancement and performance improvement in various fields, including sports.
Q & A
What is the most significant change the speaker has experienced in their mental state?
-The speaker has experienced the most durable and noticeable change in their mental state on a day-to-day and week-to-week basis after undergoing a mental health intervention involving accelerated TMS (Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation).
What is the speaker's view on psychedelic compounds and therapies?
-The speaker believes that psychedelic compounds and therapies can significantly change the way we perceive psychiatry and mental health due to their potential effects on complex PTSD, treatment-resistant depression, and their large effect sizes.
What does the speaker mean by 'tool agnostic' in the context of mental health interventions?
-Being 'tool agnostic' means that the speaker is open to various methods and technologies for mental health interventions, focusing on their effectiveness rather than being attached to a specific tool or approach.
What is TMS and how has its application advanced recently?
-TMS, or Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation, is a type of brain stimulation that has existed for decades. However, recent advancements in protocols and neuro-targeting have made it more effective, with new iterations allowing for condensed treatment protocols.
Why does the speaker warn against DIY TMS?
-The speaker warns against DIY TMS because it can be dangerous if not done correctly, potentially causing burns or worsening conditions. It requires proper knowledge and equipment to ensure safety and effectiveness.
What is the 'saint protocol' mentioned by the speaker?
-The 'saint protocol' is a condensed protocol for administering TMS developed by scientists including Nolan Williams from Stanford. It compresses typically lengthy TMS treatments into a shorter period, such as 50 sessions into five days.
What was the speaker's experience with accelerated TMS and its impact on their mental health?
-The speaker underwent two rounds of accelerated TMS and reported a significant improvement in their mental health, noting that after three months, they no longer met any diagnostic criteria for OCD, anxiety, or depression.
How did accelerated TMS affect the speaker's sleep?
-The speaker, who had lifelong insomnia, reported that after the accelerated TMS sessions, their insomnia effectively disappeared, resulting in the best sleep they've had in decades.
What are some potential side effects or risks associated with TMS?
-While TMS is generally well-tolerated, it can, in rare cases, trigger seizures. There is also the risk of worsening conditions if not administered correctly, and it may have unintended effects on other aspects of mental health.
What does the speaker suggest about the future of TMS in terms of accessibility and application?
-The speaker suggests that TMS will become more widely available and accessible within the next 6 months to 12 months, and may be used for performance enhancement in various fields, including sports.
What advice does the speaker give regarding choosing a TMS provider?
-The speaker advises looking for providers with real clinical experience, those working with established hospitals, and having a good reputation. They warn against 'fly by night' operations and emphasize the importance of proper due diligence.
Outlines
🧠 Innovative Mental Health Treatments: TMS and Psychedelics
The speaker discusses their most significant personal mental health improvement due to treatments, particularly highlighting the impact of accelerated transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS). They've been involved in psychedelic research for its potential to revolutionize psychiatry, but emphasize a tool-agnostic approach, seeking high-impact solutions. They've recently explored TMS, noting advancements in protocols and targeting. Warning against DIY TMS due to safety risks, they share their positive experience with accelerated TMS, which contrasts with conventional long-term treatments. The speaker mentions undergoing the treatment with Brain Sway and Magnus Ventures, resulting in no longer meeting diagnostic criteria for OCD, anxiety, and depression after just two sessions.
🌱 TMS's Therapeutic Promise and Personal Impact
This paragraph delves into the speaker's personal experience with TMS, noting its profound effect on their OCD, anxiety, and insomnia, to the point of no longer meeting diagnostic criteria for these conditions. They share specific examples of improvements, such as their lifelong insomnia being effectively resolved. The speaker also addresses the variability in individual responses to TMS, the potential for it to worsen conditions in some cases, and the importance of professional administration. They discuss the current state of TMS research, its cost, and the potential for wider availability and acceptance in the future, while cautioning against non-professional or 'fly by night' TMS providers.
🚫 The Risks and Realities of DIY TMS and Unregulated Services
The speaker warns against the dangers of DIY TMS and unregulated services, likening it to untrained individuals offering shamanic healing or unprofessional clinics offering TMS alongside unrelated services. They emphasize the sensitivity and complexity of the brain's circuitry, the potential for misuse of TMS to cause adverse effects, and the importance of seeking treatment from credible, experienced professionals. The speaker also shares a personal anecdote about a temporary side effect affecting their sexual function, illustrating the need for caution and professional guidance in TMS treatment.
🛑 Future Prospects and Considerations for TMS Therapy
In the final paragraph, the speaker expresses a desire to withhold specific treatment recommendations until they have more personal experience and can assess long-term durability. They mention an interview with Dr. Nolan Williams for those interested in a deeper understanding of TMS. The speaker also touches on alternative theories of mental health conditions, suggesting TMS could correct the firing sequence of brain structures. They highlight TMS as a well-tolerated treatment with low risk for most people, and note its potential use in performance enhancement and for individuals for whom psychedelic therapies are contraindicated.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Psychedelic Therapies
💡Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS)
💡Mental Health Intervention
💡Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD)
💡Durability
💡DIY (Do It Yourself)
💡Neurotargeting
💡Effect Size
💡Boosters
💡Productivity vs. Calmness
💡Parasympathetic vs. Sympathetic
Highlights
The speaker has experienced a significant and durable change in their mental state after trying a new mental health intervention.
The intervention discussed is an advanced form of TMS (Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation), which has seen rapid advancements in protocols and targeting.
The speaker warns against DIY TMS due to the risk of skin burns and worsening conditions.
Accelerated TMS is a condensed protocol that compresses 50 sessions into 5 days, developed by scientists including Nolan Williams from Stanford.
The speaker underwent two rounds of accelerated TMS with different technologies, resulting in no longer meeting diagnostic criteria for OCD, anxiety, and depression.
Accelerated TMS has shown remarkable effects on conditions like complex PTSD and treatment-resistant depression.
The speaker emphasizes the importance of not DIYing TMS due to the sensitivity of brain circuitry and the potential for adverse effects.
TMS is expected to be used for performance enhancement in various fields, including sports.
The speaker noticed a decrease in productivity but an increase in calmness after the TMS treatments.
TMS can be used to change trait hypnotizability, indicating its potential for various psychological applications.
The speaker experienced a temporary inability to orgasm due to the TMS treatment affecting sympathetic response.
TMS is generally well-tolerated with rare risks of triggering seizures, making it a safer alternative for some individuals.
Psychedelic-assisted therapy is contraindicated for some individuals, but TMS may offer an alternative treatment option.
TMS may correct the firing sequence of different brain structures, potentially addressing the root cause of conditions like depression.
The speaker is cautious about recommending specific TMS clinics until they have more personal experience and data on durability.
The cost of accelerated TMS is currently high, ranging from $5,000 to $15,000 for a 5-day treatment, but may become more accessible in the future.
The speaker suggests looking for TMS providers with clinical experience and established hospital affiliations for safety and efficacy.
Transcripts
it has been the most
durable noticeable on a day-to-day week
toe basis change in my state that I have
ever experienced uh so I want to switch
gears a little bit and mention something
that I'm incredibly excited about which
is the most impressive let's call it
mental health intervention that I have
encountered in the last 10 years so as
some of you may know I've been very
involved with supporting a lot of
research basic science and so on related
to psychedelic compounds and psychedelic
therapies that has been because I
believe they can really change the
lenses through which we look at
Psychiatry mental health and so-called
mental disorders completely due to some
of the effect sizes and durability of
say effects on complex PTSD treatment
resistant depression and so on
but I'm actually tool agnostic just like
with startup investing I'm looking for
uncrowded Bets with super high leverage
potential
outcomes I'm quite agnostic about the
tools and I will say and you and I have
talked about this privately a little bit
but in the last let's call it year
especially the last six months I've done
a very deep dive on a new iteration of
an older technology which is TMS trans
cranial magnetic stimulation so this is
a type of brain stimulation the
technology has existed for a number of
decades but the protocols and the neurot
targeting has advanced really quickly
there was the full subreddits where you
could go and learn how to do it yourself
at home don't DIY this do not people
were literally having burns on their
skin doing it yeah this is Darwin Awards
territory don't do this
guys in part because you can make things
a lot worse if you don't do it the right
way but to to to the punchline I have
gone through two rounds of something
called accelerated TMS you can learn a
lot about this by looking at a number of
scientists including Nolan Williams out
of Stanford I did an interview with
Nolan on the podcast for people who want
to do a deep dive and they developed
what was previously known it's gone
through summary branding the saint
protocol which is a very condensed
protocol for administering TMS so you
have these magnets they elicit in this
case Theta burst and typically you might
have TMS treatments over the span of
many weeks many months they're
compressing 50 sessions into 10 days or
actually 50 sessions into five days
excuse me pause for one second though
for people that don't know what does
this look like for you you said magnets
I'm I'm thinking like you know I don't
know what I'm thinking but like what do
you what are you actually doing are you
hooking [ __ ] up to your head are you in
a lab are you doing it at home you're
not doing it at home so you are in a
clinic or lab and there are different
iterations of this so my first round was
with a uh company called brain Sway and
they use a particular H7 coil they're
developing new technologies that's
effectively a helmet that you then
attach to your head with a chin strap
and based on specific targeting
depending on the condition you're trying
to address which could be depression
treatment resistant depression could be
generalized anxiety disorder could be
OCD any number of things
right Ed sure everybody's got their
thing if there's magnetic Viagra then
there's a whole new business I need to
invest in so yeah sure
and and then the second round was with
uh Magnus Ventures and a different
slightly different technology but it
effectively looks like a paddle that is
placed on the head and they use computer
vision and and pretty sophisticated
targeting but the upshot of this is
going into it no one will be surprised I
remember when I had my first diagnostic
interview with one of these
psychiatrists and we went through this
long multi-hour process and they said
you know you score X Y and Z and it
seems like you have moderate to severe
OCD and they're like this might take a
little while I know this is heavy news
if we need to take a break and I was
like are you kidding me like this is no
one this is a surprise to no one like
let's move
on so I went in with pretty high
assessment scores for just to simplify
the whole thing OCD which looking at my
family you'd be like yeah obviously and
then anxiety and a lot of long-term
listeners will know bouts of uh
depression um that also is is pretty
much kind of genetically
hardwired did these two sessions and
with 3 months so far of durability no
longer meet any diagnostic criteria for
any of those
it has been the most
durable noticeable on a day-to-day week-
toe basis change in my state that I have
ever experienced can you give me or if
you care to share can you give me
something like let's just say on the OCD
side where you were doing it previously
you had the treatments and now it's no
long yeah I give examples and I should
say your mileage will vary and the
sample sizes are still very very small
for Accelerated TMS which is I'm an
early stage guy too right like I like to
get involved but there are many unknowns
many open questions they're still in I
want to
say sub you know thousands in terms of
subjects in some cases for say OCD it's
probably fewer than 200 would be my
guess I'm I'm making up some of these
numbers but I don't think they're very
far off so there's still a lot to figure
out but as an example I've had lifelong
onset insomnia where my brain will just
not quiet down you know my mind is like
I've been waiting all day to talk to
you you know
and and it can take me an hour two hours
to fall asleep in three months that's
effectively gone to zero none of that
the best sleep I've had in a in decades
do you look at Aura data as well to see
like am I getting the proper deep sleep
am I getting you know I haven't gone
super granular I recognize the how that
could be helpful in a sense but I really
feel like we
can Outsource
our awareness
to devices and metrics where it's it's
pretty well you know when you wake up if
if the effect size is large enough it
should be pretty
obvious and I will say just there are
some people who respond inversely to
this right it can worsen some people's
conditions
I've seen a number of lives transformed
we have the most data for depression by
far and if you talk to really competent
sophisticated psychiatrists who have
looked keep a breast of the latest
technology they will say finally TMS is
delivering on what we hoped it would
deliver like the promise is finally
finally we're seeing some of the results
we were hoping to see so there's been so
many devices even at home devices that
claim to do you know TMS that you can
you can literally I've seen them on
Amazon yeah but here's the the real
question is like okay obviously you did
all the proper due diligence around
figuring out who's the best the best in
this business that's actually doing the
real science how soon until that
actually propagates out to clinics where
you would feel comfortable saying okay
Now's the Time when the average person
can go and do
this it it's hard to say I I will say on
a widely distributed basis but that's
also like uber black got all this
criticism early on and then those people
subsidized the development of Uber X and
overtime cost went down and that's how
what's the price well I would say it
ranges at this point because insurance
will not cover accelerated TMS at least
as far as I'm aware from let's call it
if we're looking at competent
well-trained outfits who are vetted 5 to
15K for that 5day period but here's the
thing
depending on your conditions depending
on your resources if you were to ask me
how much would you pay to go back 20
years and have this treatment I'd be
like take half my net worth it's fine
like the the payoff is the payoff is so
noticeable now it's not a silver bullet
nor are psychedelic assistant therapies
by the way it's not one shot one kill
with conditions so most people will go
back for boosters every 3 to six months
for say a single day of of treatment not
necessarily 5 days but the when I say
effect size people can look this up but
the magnitude of change and durability
is so far
beyond pretty much any conventional
treatment that I can think
of especially if you exclude maintenance
therapies that are really just covering
symptoms or suppressing
symptoms I'm very very excited about
this in terms of time I can't I couldn't
tell you I think that it will be more
widely available at retail where people
pay out of pocket in the next 6 months
to 12 months how will someone know if
that has been the same thing that you're
doing is there like a is there some type
of like certification or what what do
you look for because I've seen these
types of clinics I've seen it being
offered in various places yeah I would
look for people who have real clinical
experience who are working with
established hospitals and have some
bonafides there's a lot of Fly by Night
TMS operations just like there are lots
of rent of shamans on like Craigslist
and
Facebook who did some weekend yoga
course in Costa Rica and suddenly
they're going to save your soul probably
not a great idea similarly if it's like
yeah we run a you know dentist office
and we offer TMS like maybe you don't do
that or like the people are like yeah we
will fix your nails and give you
semaglutide like you mix in the bathroom
like maybe you don't do that so I I
think you know Common Sense applies but
it has been really fascinating and the
reason you don't want to DIY it or one
of the many many reasons you don't want
to DIY it is that you're dealing with
very sensitive circuitry right this
whole thing in our heads as far as I
know is powered on roughly the
electricity of a light bulb we really
don't know how it works how we are able
to function at such a high level I
suspect there are all sorts of and this
is true for all faction like Quantum
effects many many complicated mechanisms
that we just do not understand and when
you're
applying a magnetic pulse to your
brain you are and this is simplified but
you're either activating or
deactivating right enhancing or
suppressing some degree of activity or a
network of activity and if you screw
that up you can get the opposite of what
you're looking for is there any real
time like feeling like when you're there
are you like seeing [ __ ] feels like
someone flicking the side of your head
there are no visuals or anything but you
feel like someone's flicking the side of
your head and each day you feel like you
ran a mental ultramarathon like if you
were cramming for the lsats every day
for 15 hours straight that is the degree
of mental exhaustion it's very tiring do
you find that it's improved your
cognitive tasks like are you like able
to like is there any performance
enhancing benefits to this as well well
I do think TMS is going to be used for
for performance enhancement I think it
could be used for sports enhancement and
many things so I I do think especially
in the world of anti-doping and so on
that athletes are going to start to use
TMs pre-competition for enhancing who
knows visual Acuity reaction speed
that's going to happen for sure because
you can already use TMs to change trait
hypnotizability like if you want to make
people more susceptible to being
hypnotized you can use
this it's going to get super wild really
quickly I will say that one thing I
noticed on the Plus or negative side
depending on how you look at it is
that I've been so much less productive
in the last few months you seem really
chill right now yeah super
chill here's what I would say I wouldn't
trade the productivity for my current
sense of calmness and I was chatting
with therapists about this and they said
well I think for a lot of people that
anxiety is used as a fuel to work
to basically run away from things not
run towards things and I was like yeah I
could see that that doesn't seem
shocking to me so you know question I've
tried to ask myself with a lot
of different projects is am I am I
running away from something or am I
running towards something that seems a
very important distinction to
make and also another reason not to DIY
this is in a lot of cases you're let's
just say in the case of anxiety so you
have too much
like fight ORF flight or freeze let's
just say so you want to dampen that a
little bit so you can move around
without being a head case okay great you
still need some of that fight or flight
in your life so you can over dampen that
or maybe you want to increase your
parasympathetic
response this is going to be very
personal I didn't really think I would
talk about this publicly but so there's
there's a shorthand in medical school
they say point and shoot in other words
parasympathetic to get an erection
sympathetic to orgasm both of those are
really important so after I got my
sympathetic smashed I couldn't orgasm
for like two weeks and I was freaking
the [ __ ] out I was like did I just
completely screw up my hard wirring like
I'm never going to orgasm again that
seems like a high tax to pay uh [ __ ] you
know was the engine there scary moment
like you didn't have a problem with the
thing the point no no okay it was just
the finish it the shoot that was Jesus
man so like that could freak you out or
let's say like this is classic Tim
Ferris like early like trying the
craziest [ __ ] you know I'm taking the
bullet so other people don't necessarily
have to but these are all reasons why
you don't want to buy a kit on Amazon
and just start sapping your brand while
you're watching Netflix yeah all right
unless you're fast and you need to slow
down you know if somebody else wants to
run that N1 like knock yourself out but
I'm not going to do that any moving on
so last question and then we can move on
is there a website or anything where
where you went like where did you go if
someone's listening to this and they're
like I want to go where Tim went yeah I
mean this is where I would like to have
and this is not for any reason other
than I'm going to I'm going to defer on
that just because I want to have some
more experience also I want to do a
followup I want to see what the
durability looks like before I start
recommending outfits I appreciate that
so I will do that I'll have more to say
about this but for people who want to do
a deep dive Dr Nolan Williams and the
podcast that I did with him touches a
lot of this I will also say just a quick
note which
is there are some theories around say
depression which are not chemically
focused so instead of like oh serotonin
imbalance this imbalance which is a
little Antiquated in a bunch of Senses
it's not that it is a nonvariable but it
doesn't seem to be the primary
determinant it could be that different
structures in the brain are firing out
of sequence and you can use the TMS to
correct that sequence so instead of
firing like BAC it's like oh well let's
slightly tweak that system so it's
firing in what we see in normal health
is which is
ABC pretty interesting yeah to be able
to basically just reset the the trip
wire sequence yeah so something I think
we'll be hearing a lot more about in the
next handful of years and it is better
tolerated than most medications like
from a risk profile perspective for most
people in very rare cases it can trigger
seizures like there are adverse side
effect potentials but for the vast
majority very well tolerated so I'm I'm
excited about it because for instance
psychedelic assisted therapy is
contraindicated for lots of people there
are many people who should not take this
or engage in in that type of therapy too
many risks involved people with say
Borderline Personality Disorder with
family history of schizophrenia Etc but
they wouldn't NE be automatically
excluded from doing something like
accelerated TMS yeah so that's exciting
to me
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