Salman Rushdie and Arundhati Roy interview (1997)

Summary

In this insightful discussion, renowned authors Salman Rushdie and Arundhati Roy, along with New York Times bureau chief Barbara Crossette, reflect on India's 50th anniversary of independence. They explore the nation's complex journey, from its rich cultural tapestry to the challenges of poverty, political strife, and social issues. The conversation delves into India's democratic resilience, the evolving role of English in literature, and the impact of globalization. The panelists also share their optimism and concerns for India's future, emphasizing the importance of education and the enduring spirit of its people.

Takeaways

• 🇮🇳 India's 50th anniversary of independence from British rule was marked by international attention and introspection on its progress and challenges.
• 📚 The discussion highlighted the significant contributions of authors like Salman Rushdie and Arundhati Roy to Indian literature and its global recognition.
• 🌐 The script touched on the growing interest and connection between the United States and India, reflected in the increased American focus on Indian affairs.
• 📖 There's a noted resilience of India as a nation, despite its diversity and potential for fragmentation, which has been a focus of concern and debate.
• 🏛 The script mentioned the complex relationship with colonialism and the mixed feelings around the celebration of independence, especially from Britain's perspective.
• 📉 The political climate in India was described as being in a state of despair, with a focus on the country's social problems such as poverty, illiteracy, and violence.
• 🖋️ The use of the English language in Indian literature was discussed, with the acknowledgment of its role in shaping Indian thought and expression.
• 🌟 The script recognized the depth and richness of human relationships in India, which are seen as a source of cultural strength and personal value.
• 🚫 The challenges faced by writers and artists in India, including the fear of crossing certain lines due to political and social pressures, were highlighted.
• 🏛️ The importance of education, particularly primary education, was underscored as a key to India's future development and self-improvement.
• 🌱 The script conveyed a sense of optimism about India's democratic processes and the political awareness of its citizens, despite the social and economic disparities.

Q & A

What significant event occurred in India on August 15, 1947?

India gained its independence from British rule, marking the end of colonialism and the beginning of the world's largest democracy.

How has India's diversity in terms of people, language, religion, and culture contributed to its identity?

India's diversity, despite the challenges it presents, has contributed to its rich cultural heritage and has kept the nation unified as 'One Nation' despite the variations.

What is the significance of Salman Rushdie's novel 'Midnight's Children' in the context of Indian literature?

Salman Rushdie's 'Midnight's Children' paved the way for Indian writing in English, significantly influencing both Indian and global literature.

What is Arundhati Roy's contribution to Indian literature, and what is her stance on partition in literature?

Arundhati Roy is known for her novel 'The God of Small Things,' which received international acclaim. She believes in transcending political borders in literature, as reflected in her decision to include Pakistani writers in the anthology 'Mirror Work' without considering the partition.

How has the perception of India in the United States changed over the years according to the discussion?

The perception has shifted from a lack of intrinsic interest to a growing recognition and appreciation of India's cultural, political, and economic developments, as evidenced by increased media coverage and interest in Indian literature.

What are some of the social and political challenges that India faces as discussed in the script?

India faces challenges such as poverty, disease, illiteracy, violence, and political unrest. There are also concerns about the manipulation of ethnic and religious divisions by political parties for their gain.

How does the script describe the cultural and literary impact of English language proficiency in India?

The script highlights that proficiency in English, often acquired through English medium schools, has allowed Indian writers to express their unique perspectives and experiences, contributing to a rich body of Indian literature in English that resonates globally.

What is the significance of the 50th anniversary of Indian independence in the context of the international media attention it received?

The 50th anniversary attracted significant international media attention, reflecting a growing global interest in India's progress, challenges, and its evolving relationship with the West.

What are the implications of the economic liberalization in India as discussed in the script?

Economic liberalization in India has led to an influx of Western culture and consumerism, sparking a middle-class euphoria but also debates and resistance among the population.

How does the script address the issue of secularism and the role of religion in Indian politics?

The script discusses the tension between secularism and religious identity in Indian politics, noting the use of religious sectarianism as a political tool by various parties and the resulting social and political unrest.

What are the views expressed by the speakers on the future of India, particularly regarding its unity and diversity?

The speakers express a mix of optimism and concern for India's future. They acknowledge the resilience of India's unity in the face of diversity but also the potential for internal pressures and the importance of addressing social issues to ensure stability.

Outlines

00:00

🎉 Golden Jubilee Reflections on India's Progress and Identity

The first paragraph discusses the significance of India's 50th anniversary of independence, highlighting the country's journey from British rule to the world's largest democracy. It mentions the contributions of authors like Salman Rushdie and Arundhati Roy to Indian literature and reflects on the international attention garnered by this milestone. The conversation also touches on the complex relationship between India and the West, the cultural and political observations of the guests, and the mixed feelings about the celebration of independence and the opening up of the Indian economy.

05:00

🌏 International Perspectives on India's 50th Anniversary

In this paragraph, the discussion revolves around the changing perceptions of India in the United States and the lack of historical baggage that Americans have compared to the British. It notes the increasing interest in India due to the influx of Indian immigrants, students, and political figures. The conversation also addresses the dynamic changes in Indian politics, economy, and society, and the optimism about the future of India, despite the challenges it faces, such as poverty and social issues.

10:00

🏛 The Complexities of Political and Social Issues in India

This paragraph delves into the intricate social and political dynamics of India, including the manipulation of ethnic and religious divisions by political parties for their gain. It discusses the impact of the Emergency declared by Indira Gandhi in the 1970s, the rise of corruption, and the social unrest that has followed. The conversation also touches on the role of the media, the influence of Western culture, and the challenges faced by writers and artists in expressing their views freely.

15:01

📚 The Role of English in Indian Literature and Society

The focus of this paragraph is on the prevalence of English in Indian education and literature. It explores the reasons behind the comfort and proficiency of Indians in English, the flexibility of the language to accommodate Indian expressions, and the criticism some writers face for choosing English over their native languages. The paragraph also discusses the influence of Indian literature on the global stage and the importance of preserving linguistic diversity in India.

20:01

🌟 The Richness of Indian Culture and Its Impact on Writers

The fifth paragraph celebrates the richness of Indian culture and its influence on writers. It discusses the unique aspects of Indian society, such as the depth of human relationships and the resilience of the country despite its diversity. The conversation highlights the role of literature in shaping perceptions of India and the pride that Indians take in their literary achievements, as well as the challenges faced by writers in capturing the essence of India.

25:02

🚀 India's Future: Prioritizing Education and Cultural Dynamism

In the final paragraph, the conversation turns to the future of India, emphasizing the importance of education as a key to progress. It discusses the need to focus on primary education to empower people and the potential for India to lead in cultural dynamism. The paragraph also reflects on the personal connections and experiences of the speakers with India, their optimism for its future, and the challenges they foresee in the coming years.

Keywords

💡Independence

Independence refers to the state of being free from the control of another country, marking the establishment of a sovereign nation. In the context of the video, it is tied to the historical event of India gaining independence from British rule on August 15, 1947, which is a central theme of the discussion as the panel reflects on India's journey over the 50 years since this pivotal moment.

💡Democracy

Democracy is a system of government where power is vested in the people, who can either exercise it directly or through elected representatives. The video script discusses India as the world's largest democracy, highlighting the significance of its political system and the challenges and triumphs it has experienced in the 50 years since gaining independence.

💡Cultural Diversity

Cultural diversity refers to the variety of cultures, religions, languages, and traditions within a society. The script mentions the overflowing of people, language, religion, and culture in India, emphasizing the country's rich tapestry of diversity, which is both a strength and a challenge as it navigates its identity as one nation.

💡Literature

Literature encompasses written works, especially those considered to have artistic merit. The script discusses the contributions of authors like Salman Rushdie and Arundhati Roy to Indian and English literature, reflecting on how their works and others have shaped the global perception of India and its cultural narrative.

💡Economic Reform

Economic reform refers to changes in economic policy designed to improve a country's economic performance. The script touches on the opening up of the Indian economy and the subsequent middle-class euphoria, indicating the transformative impact of these reforms on India's economic landscape and societal attitudes.

💡Secularism

Secularism is the principle of the separation of government institutions and persons mandated to represent the state from religious institutions and beliefs. The script discusses the challenges India faces in maintaining secularism, given the complex interplay of religion and politics in the country's social and political fabric.

💡Social Problems

Social problems refer to issues that negatively affect a significant portion of society. The script mentions poverty, disease, illiteracy, and violence as social problems that persist in India, despite its progress, indicating the ongoing struggle to address these challenges.

💡Political Patronage

Political patronage is the practice of using state resources or power to reward supporters and allies. The script refers to the subversion of the civil service in India and the explosion of corruption, linking these issues to political patronage and its detrimental effects on democracy.

💡Cultural Exchange

Cultural exchange involves the interaction of people from different cultures, leading to the sharing of ideas, customs, and traditions. The script suggests that increased cultural exchange, potentially facilitated by economic arrangements, could lead to a reduction in conflict and a greater understanding between India and other nations.

💡Language Crisis

A language crisis can occur when a language or languages face the risk of decline or loss of speakers. The script discusses the challenges of language in India, where the use of English as a medium of instruction and a literary language may overshadow regional languages, leading to a potential crisis in linguistic diversity.

💡Non-Governmental Organizations (NGOs)

NGOs are organizations that operate independently of government, often addressing social or political issues. The script highlights the rise of NGOs in India as a positive development, suggesting that they are playing a crucial role in grassroots political engagement and social reform.

💡Education

Education is the process of acquiring knowledge, skills, values, and habits. The script emphasizes the importance of education as a key to India's future, suggesting that a focus on primary education is essential for the country's development and the empowerment of its people.

Highlights

India gained independence from British rule on August 15, 1947, marking the start of the world's largest democracy.

50 years later, India remains a diverse nation with challenges of poverty, disease, illiteracy, and violence.

Salman Rushdie's novel 'Midnight's Children' was influential in both Indian and English literature.

Arandhati Roy's book 'The God of Small Things' received acclaim as one of the best Indian novels.

Barbara Crossette, New York Times bureau chief, wrote about India's challenges and progress towards the 21st century.

The golden jubilee of India's independence attracted significant international attention.

There's a growing interest and connection between the United States and India in culture and politics.

In India, there is a simultaneous existence of multiple centuries with ongoing debates and conflicts.

The British Council's celebration of Indian independence was met with mixed reactions in India.

India's economy opened up to global influences, sparking debates on cultural identity and economic change.

Despite political challenges, India has shown resilience and has not faced credible threats of disintegration.

The idea of re-establishing closer ties or a federation between India and Pakistan is discussed.

India's secularism and social issues are a complex part of its political and cultural identity.

The rise of political parties using ethnic and religious divisions for political gain is a concern in India.

India's social problems, including poverty and unemployment, are exacerbated by political manipulation.

Despite challenges, India's democracy is vibrant, with active participation from the smallest villages to the cities.

The English language in India is a tool for expressing the country's unique cultural and intellectual diversity.

The depth of human relationships in India is valued for its authenticity and strength.

Salman Rushdie expresses a sense of loss and sadness over his strained relationship with India due to political issues.

Transcripts

50 years ago midnight struck and brought

Independence to India August 15 1947

British rule ended and the world's

largest experiment in democracy began

one half century later a land

overflowing with people and language and

religion and culture remains One Nation

yet it is also a country of poverty and

disease illiteracy and violence joining

me now to celebrate and reflect on India

at 50. author Salman Rushdie his 1981

novel midnight children paved the way

for Indian writing and English

literature his latest book mirror work

is an anthology of Indian writing since

the independence author arandotte Roy

contributed to the collection her book

The God of small things is one of the

best received Indian novels of the year

and Barbara Chrisette she is the New

York Times United Nations bureau chief

here in New York she was previously a

correspondent based into Delhi she wrote

a book in 1993 India facing the 21st

century I am pleased to have them here

not only to talk about writing and

culture but the politics all of which is

part of what they have either observed

or felt or written about as India as

I've just been

paused to note is already into its 50th

year because there are X number of hours

ahead of us

tell me what this means to India this

time if anything probably not much is

the answer but I mean I just think it's

a it has it is because for some reason

this particular golden jubilee seems to

have attracted vast International

attention I mean I think rather yeah let

me just show as you say this this is

Boston Globe which I picked up this

morning India's half century still a

work in progress the nation looks inward

The Washington Post free but Bound by

their past 50 years after Independence

India and Pakistan faces same Hills and

here in the New York Times India's five

Decades of progress and pain 50 years

past midnight yeah well I think this is

interesting you see because I I mean in

the years that I've been coming to the

United States talking about books in

India and so on one of the things which

has been a kind of truism that people

would say is actually you know people in

America are really not interested in

India no and uh and I mean I would say

well in that case who's reading my books

you know because somebody is yeah um but

that was a kind of a knee-jerk thing

that people would say about the that

there wasn't between America and India

any of the intrinsic interests that

there is for example between Britain and

India and and I think I mean the thing

that's interesting about this is it is

it's as if that's changed you know and

and uh and I mean there have been

various things that I've noticed about

just through coming here about my books

and having other Indian writers books

come out you know the kind of I mean

arundhati's book you know which had this

wonderful reception here as everywhere

else and it just seems that maybe

that connection has been made you know

between the United States and India and

if so that's a that is a valuable

outcome I guess

um you just came from India when this

week yeah about a week ago not much

celebration not much taking note of this

50th Anniversary well I think there's

you know India has I keep saying it

lives in several centuries

instantaneously

and arguing with each other but

I I think in India there's a sense that

this Euphoria sort of manufactured by by

the media by the BBC the BBC is all over

you know they've built a special studio

and in the Indian papers I think the

headlines are not about 50 50th

Anniversary but more about the politics

of Despair almost that is happening

there now and and also the fact that you

know for instance the British Council in

India has a letterhead which says

Britain celebrates 50th the 50th

anniversary of Indian independence and

there's this sort of peculiar ironing

that you know you think is this some

kind of sadomastic what are you

celebrating Britain celebrates the end

of the Empire but but because

Independence and colonialism are things

which are very complex in India

Independence came with with you know the

massacre of a million people in living

memory for us and colonialism and the

ghosts of colonialism are things that we

are still fighting and there's such

Fierce argument about the fact that say

six or seven years ago the Indian

economy opened up Indian television

opened up and welcomed you know the Bold

and the Beautiful and Santa Barbara and

McDonald's and and this huge sort of

middle class Euphoria about the economy

opening up and welcoming in something

different well welcoming in the in the

west and fighting it at the same time so

it's a it's it's such a complicated

situation to be in yeah yeah in India

just now Barbara I want to come back to

the culture on the political element

right yeah you picked up on the American

side I think several things have

happened

um for one thing as Salman has suggested

we Americans had no history with India

as the British did so so I find here a

complete lack of uh sort of background

knowledge except for a certain amount of

Romanticism the same sort of things that

I I think this is changing now because

the more Indians coming here to live uh

to go to universities to uh to take part

in politics if one I read the local

Indian newspaper uh in the states and

published in New York

um and it's also a very interesting time

in India because you know before well it

seemed like Generations I guess it was

decades it was the congress party it was

a sort of we knew their foreign policy

we kind of knew where India stood we

recognized the characters and all of a

sudden in the last few years because of

the Indian the inner dynamics of this

what you talked about the sort of

depression about politics and a lot of

things have opened up not just the

economy but thinking about politics and

every everything is now in action the

courts and India the electoral system

building a new India so really I think

it's it's incredible in fact marvelous

at 50 you know we really have this new

India to look at and I think that's

reflected a bit also and I think that's

beginning to attract people here also

because it has a chance for a new

relationship with Pakistan Perhaps

Perhaps for the first time in a long

time I want to get to from all of you

whether you're optimistic and

pessimistic about the future of this

country should we say the fact that

India has held itself together has been

its toughest Challenge and a miracle

that it has over these 50 years when you

think of all the diversity that's there

and all of the potential to split apart

I think that's probably true you know I

mean I I don't think in my memory I

can't really think of a moment at which

it was credibly on the cards that India

would split apart you know I mean

actually I think the the the surprising

resilience of of the country you know

and I was there I mean has been there

throughout you know I think there have

been moments of terrible crisis uh but

the idea that the country would

disintegrate uh I think if Pakistan is a

country which you could talk about as

one which has been I mean actually has

disintegrated it started off as a larger

country which split into two and even in

what is now Pakistan what used to be

West Pakistan great internal pressures

between the pathans in the north the

baloches in the west the sindhis in the

South the separatist pressures

I mean leaving aside khalistan in in the

khadistan movement of a Sikh Homeland

and table pressure in the South there

hasn't there hasn't been a credible

movement to split the country I would

say that there have been such rhetorical

statements in some terrorists acts but I

I don't think there was ever a moment

where I thought the country would split

so that is I mean it it just does exist

you know it just is there and it does

exist and it ain't going to break up in

fact maybe the opposite's going to

happen I mean there is something it'll

consolidate into well you know

anti-partition unpartition I mean I

don't by which I don't necessarily mean

political union you know but this I mean

I remember what the the oldest object I

possessed I was given on the day I was

born by my father's best friend is a a

block of silver on which is engraved the

unpartitioned map of India you know um

the the real India you know the big

place and that's what I think of that's

what I think of you know

yes yes I mean when I was editing this

Anthology I decided to ignore the

frontier you know if the Pakistani

writers I'd like to put them in you know

and I just I thought why do we have

Pakistani writers yeah sure why should I

partition the literature just because

just because that happened you know

that's what it seemed to me and and I

think um we were talking earlier today

that that there do seem to be moves to

create not a reunion of the country not

like Germany but but a kind of looser

Federation you know they're talking

about 10 years from now dropping tariff

barriers I mean it's a long time away

you know I don't I don't think it's

going to happen the day after tomorrow

but it does seem if I was looking

optimistically to think that you know 50

years from now we might talk about

partition as a blip you know and instead

of as something irrevocable I think this

is a few yeah

politics what about this battle about

secularism and and that whole issue in

the psyche of India well actually I

you know I don't I would love to feel

the way you feel because it's the right

you know it's the right way to feel and

many of us

do wish that this didn't exist this

barrier between India and Pakistan but

what what I think I mean

maybe it's just a perspective from

living there and seeing what happens

the fact is that what is happening is is

peculiar you know on the one hand you

have this sort of Internet culture I see

it as Internet culture you know where

you have MTV and television and all this

and and below that you have tribalism

you have

you know whether the country is together

just politically or not uh is is it's

like you know saying oh you have a

marriage but whether it's a good

marriage or a bad marriage is is a is

the point you know and

I often say that there isn't a single

Indian who can claim not to belong to

some minority if they want to so so this

the you know the the parts that these

cracks take keep changing you know

sometimes it's Muslim Hindu sometimes

it's Sikh Hindu sometimes it's cost

sometimes it's language and you you

can't predict what's going to happen

because it's just under this pressure

and the pressure is not whether the

country will break up or not but the

fact that the way politics is working

now each political party seeks to drive

in its Stakes into some kind of ethnic

or you know it seeks to claim some kind

of ethnic group or religion and it plays

out this horrible drama all the time

one of the reasons why I think people

like me were so upset about the one of

the many reasons why we were upset about

the emergency of Mrs Gandhi in the

middle 70s was that it did seem to be

the moment at which all the restraints

were removed from the system you know

suddenly the congress party would

overtly play uh religious sectarianism

as a political card you know suddenly

the the the the the Civil Service which

had been independent of the of the

political parties and had been a kind of

solid base for democracy in India was

deliberately subverted and political

patronage was rooted through the

congress party and suddenly corruption

exploded Adobe corruption has always

been there in India but but that moment

is the moment at which it went nuclear

obviously right here though you get you

draw you can jump to the really the next

issue which is the social problems of

India if we were going to talk later on

about uh about the future uh for example

when I went to the sort of trial run of

the Iota attack the year before they

actually pulled the mosque down and in

the that northern city and they were

people there who were involved in the

name of Hinduism attacking this and we

drove some of them back to Lucknow

afterwards they were unemployed kids

from Bombay who had been told if they

came up and joined the crowd the the

political parties are drawing on our

drawing on from one of a better word

mobs or Hooligans to not just as vote

Banks if they can count on but also to

get out and demonstrate and so on and

there as long as there's this huge

population of people without an adequate

income in the in the poorest states it

does lend itself even more to this kind

of behavior and allows allows politics

to really become sometimes a very

frightening business I was at Mrs

Gandhi's funeral in 1984 and at Rajiv

Rajiv Gandhi's funeral in 1991 and the

qualitative difference of the atmosphere

was extraordinary between 84 when people

were perhaps not

wildly torn with grief at her death but

were respectful were dignified and by

the time of raji's funeral there were

congress party uh squads of goons out

running around jumping into places they

shouldn't be and this is what people in

India call the Congress culture among

other things but but you know I think

that for me one of the most frightening

things about what happened with the BJP

was yes of course we have this Lumpur

hooligan element but you know there were

people who who I would meet every day

who I would never have suspected would

nurse this kind of hatred and and I had

I was sitting in my house and telling

people get out of my house don't talk to

me don't don't even bring this up you

know take your food and eat it outside

because it was it was so scary that

you're talking about educated

intellectual people who Harbor this this

kind of prejudice that surfaces suddenly

well that's why the rest of the

neighborhood doesn't want to hear about

the greater India because it's this it's

this group that very often articulates

that and so to a Pakistani that means a

Hindu yes I mean as I said I wasn't I

wasn't talking about political reunion I

was talking about something like

economic Arrangements you know which

might just lower the boundaries and

allow people to spend less money on guns

and more cultural exchange there's no

excuse for the way you know for instance

yes we have a free press in India but

you also have writers and Painters and

artists who are now who know their place

you know because of what happened with

Salman or you know last year they burnt

down Hussein's painting and it's almost

as if now people people and will not be

willing to risk saying things that they

wish and what's happened to your book

to my book well it's you see the the the

advantage that I have in my book is that

it offends everybody a little bit you

know so as long as everybody's offended

you you're more or less safe but

um a Christian lawyer a Syrian Christian

lawyer who who lives in the district

that I grew up next to has filed a

Criminal suit against me for for

corrupting public morality

so you know it's a private citizen but

the minute it's accepted in a criminal

court it's the state of Kerala versus

hey Roy but so you have to defend

yourself yeah well that's why I was

flying back tonight because I was

supposed to appear in court to seek bail

on the 19th but in the meantime I

appealed against this in the high court

and the high court has ordered a

temporary stay while they consider

whether the case should be kept off

while I'm sifting a little bit the

culture we'll come back to the party in

a second

um

why is it that Indians and it may be

obvious because of

British feel so comfortable in the

English language well and use it so well

well I mean I think the one

straightforward answer is that most of

the Indian middle class go to what are

called English medium schools where

English is the medium of instruction

from an early age I mean I didn't speak

English at home I mean I you know my

mother tongue was doing when we spoke in

the of course you know and I started

speaking English you know when

approaching school age but the schools

are very good and so people learn

English and I I stood the literary use

of English I mean I think that is a

developing still developing phenomenon

you know and I think Gathering

some steam recently I mean I don't know

from for me as arundhati also says that

you know the choice to write in English

was just simply made by the

circumstances of my life I mean it's my

best language you know so so I use it

and your best language means what well I

mean I speak it better than I speak the

other one okay so and certainly I mean I

can write letters to my mother in you

know in other languages but but I

wouldn't I wouldn't write novel in it

you know but what I felt was that there

is a kind of flexibility in English

uh which allows it to accommodate other

music you know and and what I thought is

that is that the the music of India of

speech and actually of thought also

under imagination is rather different

than uh the way in which people think

and speak and dream you know in in in

England or in America and what I wanted

to do and I think many other writers

have tried to do this is to find

and English

which would allow me to to express that

you know and and uh and the great thing

about English is it is so flexible it is

it is so many things it lets you do that

no it's opened up for all of us who

don't read the Indian languages a

wonderful world of India uh and because

the fiction is of such high quality and

there's so much how would you expect

diversity

other than the explanation just given by

the quality or yeah the quality as well

as a facility with the English language

it's a country full of of brilliant

people well-educated people with a lot

of and and in an ability to uh to to to

to let India sing uh but also to to

there are novels that talk about you

know for example a small small town

administrator or uh to try to uh

satirize Indian history their novels

that that talk about family life that

talk about the country to talk about

there's so many there's so many to read

and they're so good and they're so much

better than the translations of a lot of

Indian writing uh in Indian languages

but you know it's still I think I don't

know and that he would be closer to this

uh it's there's still some some

criticism of people who choose to write

in English I think that you're somehow

letting down your mother's time you

didn't know that you look no no no what

I what I want to say is that I think

that you know when you speak of language

uh the the sad truth is that yes of

course there are writers who are writing

very good good books you know but but

there is a language crisis in India too

because there are you know a lot of us

speak more than one language we speak

English Hindi and say I speak Malayalam

now uh that can all that that if you're

a writer can strengthen your language

but if you're not it can break it down

and there are a lot of Indians who don't

speak any language properly which is

really frightening and and it isn't

actually true that India everyone who

speaks India English and India speaks

beautifully and writes beautifully it

isn't the case of course but at the same

time just take the New Yorker magazine

here I mean that'll make a big case out

of the New Yorker magazine devoted an

entire issue which you were part of to

India I thought it was very I thought it

was a I mean a great thing for them to

do because I think it did that is one of

the events of this year I think that has

uh really shifted a lot of people's

perceptions you know about about that

culture about that writing here I mean I

I just think you know it's it's a gift

India for a writer because it's uh

because it's yeah because it's

inexhaustible because

there is well certainly this would be my

view that it's uh

you know midnight children for instance

or or any of my books I mean I have I

have tried to give the illusion that

they're writing about the whole thing

you know um and actually of course

that's a complete fake I mean you

couldn't you know you couldn't you

couldn't write about one street you know

in 500 pages and get and get everything

in

um so that's a that's a kind of sleight

of hand but that sense of the Cornucopia

that sense of you know the kind of

inexhaustible Horn of Plenty is

and actually of this many of the things

that are you know were socially and

politically wrong with India that's to

say excessiveness well large Larger than

Life characters India is full of larger

than wife characters the lack of a

middle register

of all these things but sometimes I I

react against that you know because I I

think

again you know I just think that it's

there are things about India which are

just like everywhere else and I don't as

a writer I'm not conscious of uh you

know people have told me that I do this

but I'm not conscious of actually trying

to remodel the English language to tell

uh Indian stories it's just the way I

think and it's the way I use language

and it's mine you know and I I think a

lot of people who write maybe you know

the the more recent writers think that

you know you're not aware of trying to

use a foreign language to tell a native

story you know I'm not aware of it I'm

not trying to say English as a foreign

language what I'm trying to say is that

I would have thought the most serious

like writers have a linguistic project

you know that's to say that if you you

have to find a language for your work

you know that I think is true of a

writer anywhere you know it's not

necessarily but of course is I'm just

talking about being this writer from

here doing this you know

um of course it's true it's true of

every writer if you don't hear a unique

voice it's not that interesting a writer

you know the writers we remember are the

ones that you can remember because they

don't write like anyone else you know

and and uh and what I'm saying is that

there was a sense in which India allowed

me to become the writer that I was that

I could not have become you know

otherwise uh that that does have to do

with I mean I know this is a book about

small things and intimacies and details

and so on and you know good for it but

but I'm saying that there is this other

project which excited me which had to do

with taking on the whole damn thing you

know um and and and and that's what I

wanted to do and have tried to do and I

think I've probably finished

probably finish taking on the whole damn

thing so the next time the novel will be

about a small thing

uh and I'm almost out of time I want to

go to this point what are you optimistic

about when you think of this place that

you reported from so well and what

concerns you as one who had to have

liked and and found great

friendship in this country well I think

it being the 50th anniversary and

everyone talking about the largest

democracy I think it's amazing that one

can go during an election to the

smallest Village People are completely

unafraid however beaten down they might

be by cast or whatever else give their

names give their opinions talk about

politics talk about anything from the

villages on up uh Indians are

politically astute and aware and I think

this is being translated into

non-governmental organizations that

doesn't sound very sexy but in fact

these are the sort of new political

starings in some places it's seen people

taking on single issues we recognize

this uh in our own countries and um and

in a way moving to reform politics in

some way I think they're I do think

there are huge problems in ignoring 300

to 600 million people who who aren't

making it particularly in in the states

of the north where there are genuine

problems with or everything literacy

health and so on but but but there's a

core there and infecting the English

language is also in many ways among the

emerging middle class those educated in

a certain way I realize we only talk

always about a minority that's a

cohesive Factor too in some ways and in

fact even sharing these these literary

ideas one often learn so much more about

well we learn about our own country from

novels poems things like that and and

the English writing is is making Indians

proud of themselves uh in a whole new

way I think English art would like to

follow and other Indians sorry Indian

art would like to follow into this

English writing and so it's a it's it's

created a very Dynamic cultural

environment in India and what's the

imperative for India today

what is it that India has to do as it

enters the next Century

well uh

I had if you know if I had

to say one thing only one thing I'd say

that it should it should dismantle its

whole uh sort of grants for higher

education and just really concentrate on

on primary education because education

is key too

yeah well it just it's just the only

only thing I can think of that will make

people help themselves I bring a point

if I have to make only one point reminds

me the opening of this book listen this

is the this is mirror work I once gave a

reading this is the

installment I once gave a reading to A

Gathering University of students in in

Delhi and when I finished young woman

put up her hand Mr Rusty I read through

your novel Midnight's Children she said

it's a very long book but never mind I

read it though and the question I want

to ask you is this fundamentally what is

your point

before I could attempt an answer she

spoke oh I know what you're going to say

you're going to say that the whole

effort from cover to cover that is the

point of the exercise isn't that what

you're going to say

something like that perhaps I got out

she snorted it won't do

please I begged do I have to make just

one point fundamentally she said with

impressive firmness yes

she deserves her own show it was one of

the most impressive lessons in

literature I

have this one last question because I'm

a romantic at heart and I assume all of

us are

not necessarily because life may have

been easier for me than others uh there

is romance about envy you there is

mystery about entry there is for all the

poverty and for all the pain and for all

the violence there is something

that makes it different there's immense

Grace Grace Grace and be poor Rajasthani

woman working on a road construction

crew can wear jewelry and a sari in a

way that that is extraordinary

everything is arresting and maybe that

sounds patronizing but for an outsider

it's what makes people who find it

difficult to live there go back again

and again and again and I'm not just

that but it's one of those things could

you give us this from afar for me for me

I think what what I value most about

India is is the depth of human relations

you know relationships I just you know I

would trade that input anything you know

I wouldn't trade that in for anything

it's for me the central thing

friendship friendship and and the depth

of a relationship is not superficial

somehow it's cemented in some some way

that I can't explain

well I hit I hear what arandathi Sagan I

agree with it and I must say

just speaking personally it makes me

feel very sad because I think

um I'm coming very close to the end of

my relationship with India because you

know I can't go it's been it's been

almost 10 years since I could go I don't

want to start uh writing about it uh in

a way that shows that ignorance you know

and uh and so I think the amount of work

I can do in that area is limited I'm

writing in fact it happens a book at the

moment which is about people who leave

you know about the if Midnight's

Children was about the dream of home

then this book is about the dream of

going away you know cowardice political

characteristic not supporting him I mean

his book was satanic versus was banned

there before it was banned elsewhere and

it's

that there is a certain

level yeah I think it's very I think

it's it's over for me you know I think

uh uh I feel like the person who got

dumped you know I mean I'm not he's

saying is it a good marriage or a bad

marriage in in my case it feels like

it's over or very nearly so

it's very sad

but it's you know as I said this is the

fear that I mean what happened to Salman

has its avatars in all of us you know

everybody knows the lines they can't

cross now it's terrible no I intend to

go on Crossing every possible line yeah

but yeah there's no one that doubts that

no show me alive

show me a line and I can cross or Dare

You Dare me to cry uh let me just one

more time Barbara Chrisette with the New

York Times United Nations correspondent

uh earned aches Roy a book that enormous

praise the god of small things a novel

with a cover designed by Guess Who the

author and mirror worked 50 years of

Indian writing 1947 to 1997 edited about

someone Rushdie and Elizabeth West in

includes a lot of names that you would

recognize I thank you uh India enters

its 51st year

back in a moment