Is Zeus a Predator?
Summary
TLDRThis video script delves into the complexities of worshiping ancient Greek gods amidst accusations of their predatory nature. It challenges the literal interpretation of myths, suggesting they were cultural narratives explaining societal norms rather than factual accounts. The speaker explores historical context, misogyny in Greek law, and the evolution of these myths, arguing for a nuanced understanding that separates divine inspiration from the cultural biases of the time.
Takeaways
- 📜 The script discusses the complex issue of interpreting ancient Greek mythology in a modern context, especially concerning the portrayal of gods and societal norms.
- 🔮 It emphasizes the importance of understanding mythic literalism and the cultural context in which these myths were created, rather than taking them as factual accounts of divine actions.
- 🌟 The portrayal of gods like Zeus as predators in mythology is attributed to the ancient Greek culture's understanding and not necessarily the gods' true nature.
- 🏛 The script explores the societal structure of ancient Greece, highlighting the difference in women's rights and the concept of kurios, where women were seen more as property than individuals.
- 👥 It delves into Hesiod's Theogony, explaining how myths were used to illustrate societal norms and the power dynamics between men and women.
- 🌹 The birth of Aphrodite from the seafoam is presented as a symbol of the climax of Gaia and Ouranos' struggles, representing a shift in divine power and societal order.
- 🔄 The script discusses the theme of transformation in Greek mythology, particularly for women, as a reflection of societal fears and the loss of identity post-marriage.
- 👶 The story of Persephone's abduction is reinterpreted as an allegory for the transition from maidenhood to womanhood and the establishment of male control over offspring.
- 🔍 The paper by Kirk Ormond on female shape-shifting in myths is cited to explain the cultural obsession with deception and transformation as related to women's identities.
- 🌿 The script argues that the myths serve as teaching tools and explanatory mechanisms for societal functions, rather than direct reflections of the gods' actions.
- 🙏 It concludes that modern pagans can appreciate the divine inspiration behind the myths without accepting every detail as historically or morally accurate.
Q & A
What is the main challenge faced by Helenus in the script when discussing the worship of ancient Greek gods?
-Helenus faces the challenge of addressing the criticisms from anti-theists and Christians who mock the worship of ancient Greek gods, often perceived as predators, due to the portrayal of these deities in myths that involve assault and misogyny.
Why does Helenus believe it's important to delve deeper into historical context when discussing ancient Greek myths?
-Helenus believes that understanding the historical context is crucial to grasp the true meaning of the myths, which were meant to teach lessons about societal roles and functions in ancient Greek societies, rather than being taken as literal accounts of the gods' actions.
What does Helenus mean by 'mythic literalism' in the context of the script?
-Mythic literalism refers to the interpretation of myths as factual and historical narratives, rather than as allegorical or symbolic stories that convey deeper meanings or moral lessons.
How does the script suggest that ancient Greek society viewed women in relation to assault?
-The script indicates that in ancient Greek society, particularly in Athens, women were often viewed as closer to property, with their guardians being considered the true victims in cases of assault.
What is the significance of the myth of Aphrodite's birth in Hesiod's Theogony according to the script?
-The birth of Aphrodite from the seafoam after Kronos' castration is suggested to represent a kind of 'an eye for an eye' justice, symbolizing the climax and recapitulation of Gaia and Ouranos' struggles, and highlighting the divine femininity and the role of lust in Greek epic poetry.
How does the script interpret the story of Pandora's creation in the context of ancient Greek society?
-The script interprets Pandora's creation as a representation of the transfer of female reproductive power to the patriarchal society in Greece, with her 'insatiable womb' unleashing all horrors onto humanity, symbolizing the shift of societal strife onto women.
What does the script suggest about the role of Zeus in Greek mythology and how it reflects the societal structure of ancient Greece?
-The script suggests that Zeus' actions in Greek mythology, such as the abduction of Persephone, reflect the societal structure of ancient Greece, where male power and control over women were prevalent, and these stories served as allegories for societal norms and the order of the world.
How does the script discuss the portrayal of women as shape-shifters in Greek mythology?
-The script discusses that women in Greek mythology are often portrayed as shape-shifters, which is linked to their societal roles and the fear of women's power to deceive and transform, especially in relation to marriage and the integration into the household.
What is the significance of the Age of Heroes and the Age of Iron in the script's interpretation of Greek mythology?
-The script interprets the Age of Heroes as a period where Zeus transferred the conflict of succession to humans, symbolizing the birth, death, and rebirth cycle of human families. The Age of Iron represents the end of direct divine intervention in human affairs, marking a shift in the relationship between gods and humans.
How does the script differentiate between the cultural understanding of the gods in ancient Greece and the actual worship of these deities today?
-The script differentiates by arguing that while the myths were inspired by cultural understanding and portrayed the gods in certain ways, modern worshippers can interpret these stories as allegorical and not literal, allowing for a modern understanding of the gods that does not condone the negative aspects depicted in the myths.
Outlines
🤔 Navigating Mythology and Modern Faith
The speaker addresses the criticism of ancient Greek religious practices, particularly the worship of gods with predatory attributes. They express a desire to provide a deeper understanding of these myths by exploring historical context and the cultural lessons they were meant to impart. The speaker acknowledges the misogyny in ancient Greek society and the trauma of assault, sharing their personal experience as a victim. They aim to show that ancient myths were not meant to be taken literally but rather to reflect societal norms and the roles of men and women at the time. The paragraph emphasizes the importance of distinguishing between ancient religious practices and the moral values of contemporary society.
📚 Exploring Ancient Greek Society and Mythology
This paragraph delves into the academic examination of ancient Greek epics, focusing on the societal constructs and the roots of modern misogyny. It discusses the legal perspectives on women's rights and assault in ancient Athens, highlighting the property-like status of women and the distinctions made between coercive and violent assault. The paragraph also explores Hesiod's Theogony, examining the narrative of Gaia and Uranus and the birth of Aphrodite from the seafoam, which is interpreted as a symbolic representation of societal values and divine femininity. The discussion includes the roles of gods and humans in ancient Greek society, the concept of justice and reciprocity, and the cultural significance of myths.
🌐 Gods, Misogyny, and the Cultural Context
The speaker continues to dissect Greek mythology, specifically addressing the portrayal of gods and the cultural fears they represent. They discuss the transformation myths of women in Greek stories, which are seen as a reflection of the instability of female identity and the societal transition into marriage. The paragraph also touches on the myth of Maera and the cultural obsession with deception and transformation related to women. The speaker argues that these myths were allegorical, teaching tools to explain societal norms and the roles of men and women, rather than literal accounts of divine actions.
🔍 Interpreting Myths Through a Modern Lens
In the final paragraph, the speaker reflects on the interpretation of ancient Greek myths in the context of modern society. They argue that while these myths may seem to portray the gods as violent or predatory, they were actually cultural explanations for societal phenomena. The speaker emphasizes the importance of understanding these myths within their cultural context and not taking them as literal truths about the gods. They conclude by asserting that the divine inspiration behind the myths is not infallible and that modern interpretations should be made with an understanding of the cultural biases of the time.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Mythic Literalism
💡Patriarchy
💡Cultural Context
💡Hesiod
💡Zeus
💡Aphrodite
💡Pandora
💡Persephone
💡Transformation
💡Maia
💡Eros
Highlights
The discussion addresses the challenge of reconciling the worship of ancient Greek gods with the problematic narratives found in their mythology.
It emphasizes the importance of understanding mythic literalism and its rejection in modern pagan practices.
The transcript explores the societal context of ancient Greece, highlighting the differences in values and norms compared to today's standards.
A deep dive into feminist discourse and its contribution to the reinterpretation of Greek epics is presented.
The paper by C. Carey is mentioned, discussing the legal perspective on assault and women's status in ancient Athens.
Susan Gettle Coll's work is referenced to explain Athenian laws that reflect the societal protection of male interests over women's rights.
A comparative analysis of women's rights in different Greek city-states, particularly focusing on Sparta's more progressive stance, is provided.
Marilyn Bea Arthur's paper on Hesiod's Theogony is discussed, offering insights into the societal construction depicted in Greek epic poetry.
The role of Aphrodite and her birth from the seafoam is analyzed as a representation of divine femininity and societal norms.
The narrative of Zeus's actions and their implications on societal structure and gender roles in ancient Greece is examined.
The story of Persephone's abduction is reinterpreted as an allegory for the transition from maidenhood to womanhood in ancient Greek society.
Kirk Ormond's paper on the Greek obsession with deception and transformation, especially regarding women, is summarized.
The myth of Maestra is explored as an example of the instability of female identity and the conflict between familial loyalty and marital obligations.
Jose M. Gonzalez's paper on the Ages of Man and the end of divine intervention in mortal affairs is discussed.
The transcript concludes by arguing that ancient myths were cultural explanations rather than literal truths about the gods.
A call to distinguish mythology from societal morals and to interpret ancient stories within their cultural context is made.
The importance of exegeting ancient myths through a modern lens without imposing contemporary biases is emphasized.
The video ends with a reflection on the reasons why some people might still worship ancient Greek gods despite the complex mythology.
Transcripts
as a Helenus there's one line that I
hear more than any other way the
anti-theists and Christians alike decide
to mock my faith saves as a predator how
could you possibly worship Him well I
wish I could just direct them to
numerous videos and articles done by
various pagans on rejections of mythic
literalism but we live in a Christian
hegemonic society and Christians are
mythic literalists so here we are pirate
a what a huge project yet another rabbit
hole of research feminist discourse in
particular has had a recent explosion of
work on the Greek epics in part because
they're so readily accessible most of us
have read them in high school or college
along with selections of ancient Greek
plays and stories deemed to be
culturally significant in the modern day
this is useful for determining the roots
of some of the misogyny we see in the
modern day and in that regard it's
definitely a useful endeavor
I'm not going to downplay the incredible
work that has been done in this field
however when one looks at the reasons
why a person may choose to worship
ancient gods this is where things start
to get murky of course the deeper you
get into mythology pardon my pun the
more unsavory stuff comes out I'm not
going to deny that what happened to many
women in mythology would be considered
assault by modern standards if we took
the stories literally it absolutely
would nor am I going to deny the
misogynistic culture these stories
emerge from in fact later on in this
video I'm going to delve deeper into
various sources of ancient Greek thought
on the matter and I'm certainly not
going to minimize assault as a source of
trauma for victims worldwide or excuse
these attitudes I'm an assault victim
myself I know how traumatizing this
stuff is I would like to put forward an
answer to the question how could
somebody possibly worship these gods in
the modern day by diving a bit deeper
than most would into historical context
and the lessons that many of these myths
were meant to teach not about the gods
but about the way women and men could
expect to function in ancient Greek
societies keep in mind that societies
plural these were autonomous city-states
through most of history and many of
these stories come from various
locations around what would now be
considered ancient Greece so it looks
like there were more stories in
antiquity than most individuals living
in this places would have been familiar
with hindsight is twenty-twenty we can
see them all or at least the ones that
survived but the ancients likely only
knew a few and we have
evidence they didn't take them literally
either we'll get there one last bit
before we get started I and most other
pagans do not advocate for bringing back
all the laws and values of ancient
societies despite practicing a
reconstructed form of ancient religion
religion and morality do not have to be
synonymous mine certainly isn't and
wanting to reconstruct an ancient faith
does not mean that I want to reconstruct
the society that faith came from those
things are not synonymous and although
there are some pagans who disagree with
me and my experience they tend to be a
vocal and sometimes violent minority
with that out of the way let's begin
with some cultural context on women's
rights in many city-states in ancient
Greece and how the law Bute them
according to a paper by C Carey in the
classical court early women were not
considered to be the aggrieved parties
or victims in ancient Athens when it
came to assault yes I know that's BS but
bear with me women were closer to
property and their guardian or Helios
was considered to be the true victim in
those cases yet eoa were generally
father's eldest brothers or husbands a
distinction was drawn between coercive
assault where the woman allegedly
consented and violent assault where she
did not I say allegedly here because as
we all know coercive assault where the
woman doesn't physically resist can
still be assault but in ancient Greece
if it wasn't violent it was assumed that
she was into it yeah like I said it's
pretty misogynist according to another
paper by Susan Gettle Coll there was
another Athenian law that exempts in
Iquitos from homicide prosecution if he
catches his charge in the act of assumed
voluntary coitus with another man
particularly if it occurs in the home
the term for coercive or voluntary
intercourse outside of marriage
Makia is distinguished in the law from
the terms for forcible intercourse
coercive assault carried with it a
potential death sentence for the
assailant violent assault carried with
it a punishment of punitive damages to
the kurios she cites you philetus for
elucidation on the matter he argues that
the law exacts a greater punishment for
the mykos because the use of persuasion
corrupts a woman and cast doubts on the
paternity of the husband's children
whereas a violent assault makes it clear
that she was not a willing victim have
we seen that in the modern day where
women convicted of makyo would be barred
from religious participation and no
longer allowed to live in their husbands
homes victims of violent assault would
be considered shamed but in no way
punished and their families were also
considered Samed heap
mind family relations or eCos relations
were significantly more important than
individuals at this time according to
the same paper a legal distinction was
also drawn in Crete but there isn't as
much evidence for it in most other Greek
city-states apart from Sparta which had
much more robust women's rights and I'm
not gonna get too deep into them here
heavy stuff next we're gonna take a look
at Hesiod's Theogony and a paper by
Marilyn Bea Arthur exploring the way the
poems lays out layers of the way Greek
society is constructed she starts off
with the narrative of Gaia and Dada
knows and how Odin owes sealed Gaia's
womb and she gets her son Kronos to cut
off his arm member in retaliation is a
seed spills all over the water in his
blood hits the land bursting afro DJ and
a number of mythological entities Arthur
argues that this is a representation of
a kind of Hammurabi in order like being
punished for life an eye for an eye or a
member for a womb she argues that the
birth of Aphrodite a from seafoam imbued
with or enosis seed following his
castration by Kronos represents the
climax and recapitulation of Gaia and
otoño struggles Greek epic poetry gets
really weird sometimes okay bear with me
Hesiod refers to her as the primal force
that lays men low mastering them through
deceit and concealment also like the
Messiah whom Hesiod refers to at the
beginning as able to tell lies that
sound like the truth and truth with
equal ease deception is considered both
key to the divine femininity and the
role as progenitor of lusts that afro
detai carries she was born of man alone
and therefore remains untamed by
patriarchy what's interesting here is
that according to the same paper afro
detai was considered to be a famous
opposite both were born of men but
whereas aina was born of Zaius victory
over fate after detai was born of Iran
OSes defeat asain who was born of Zeus's
head later in the story after he devours
his wife matey's while she's pregnant in
order to subvert a prophecy where
mantises progeny would surpass Zeus afro
detai on the other hand was born from
below a symbol of how Odin OSes lust
destroyed him I promise we'll get into
the predator stuff please stick with me
there's a lot to go through
so Prados then devours all of his kids
and Raya convinces her mother Gaia to
hide Zaius a way to put a stop to it
Arthur argues that this puts Raya
despite being defined feminine in the
role of daughter in Greek society taming
the wildness of Aphrodite a where Raya
is concerned and stripping some of her
power she also notes that all the
daughters of Zeus are virginal meaning
married in this context which further
weakens their power after Raya gives
Chronos a stone which he thinks his they
use and Zaius grows up he beats his
father into submission and his father is
forced to get back what he's stolen by
vomiting up all of his siblings this she
argues shows Ava's divine rule was
established by replacing direct revenge
with a system of justice and reciprocity
gift-giving equivalent exchange etc were
important concepts in ancient Greek
mythology as was the concept of Xenia
upon which one of my shows on this
channel is actually built equivalent
exchange plays into the next episodes
the stories of Prometheus giving humans
fire and the hundred handers granting
they use their power in remembrance of
release from their bondage and the
Lopez giving him lightning in a similar
spirit she then goes into detail about
Pandora created by Hephaestus again born
of men but mindless an insatiable womb
who ultimately unleashes all horror onto
humanity where as a youth ends the cycle
of struggle and renew among the gods
stabilizing the divine order Pandora
transfers this strife on to humanity
through the hungry womb which brings
Arthur back to Athena and the ultimate
transfer female reproductive power to
the patriarchal society in Greece Maties
is pregnant but saves devours her in
order to prevent a birth creating birth
from his mind not his loins and thus
stripping mothers of their rights over
children in the minds of briefs women
might give birth but men owned the
children what does this have to do with
Zeus his actions and other stories it
actually explains a lot here we get the
Greek view of the order of the world not
just the characteristics of the gods but
also the rules that men and women played
in ancient Greek society keep in mind
Hesiod was from Boise so this isn't even
an attic view but you see similar values
play out here we'll start with the
abduction of Persephone by Zeus to give
her to Hades as his wife oh you thought
that Hades did that himself yeah we were
all taught that in high school but it's
wrong a paper in the Harvard theological
review by Bruce Lincoln explores this
myth and its many iterations in depth
despite the may throws objections it's
clear that Zeus had planned this out and
took Persephone then called Corre which
means maiden to the underworld
hada is forced himself on her and her
name changes to Persephone because she's
no longer Caray or Maiden so her old
name has no more meaning a literal
transformation of identity the author
argues that in ancient Greece society
this forceful act was seen as the
initiation into womanhood for the
bleeding was seen as necessary to spark
menstruation and eventually childbearing
the
Torian forces the male power over
children in the same vein as the above
mythology adding a layered element of
indoctrination into male control the
mates are not having it throws a fit and
causes the earth to stop producing food
for mortals which even Zaius can't stand
after she refuses his messengers he
allows Persephone to rejoin society
partially on the condition that she
still remained married some authors
according to Lincoln even add an extra
layer onto the story emphasizing that
this is when de mettre taught the
secrets of agriculture to humanity thus
progressing humans from hunter-gatherer
to an agrarian civilization when this
has been accomplished he writes the
initiation is complete Persephone a has
been transformed humanity has been
transformed and the cosmos has been
remade the paper is linked below and
goes into depth on the history of the
pomegranate and Hadas as ploy to keep
Persephone A for part of the year which
is fascinating if y'all want me to make
a video on that I'd be down let me know
in the comments which brings us to the
many stories of transformation both of
men and women in Greek mythology and how
they showcased just how terrified of
women Greek men really were we're all
lying seductresses after all capable of
ruining their bloodlines by running off
with somebody else for the night at
least according to homer and hesiod SEO
really hated women according to Kirk
Ormond in a paper in the American
Journal of philology the Greeks were
particularly obsessed with the concepts
of deception and transformation when it
relates to women which explains the
plethora of female shapeshifters we find
throughout the mythos he's specifically
exploring the myth of maestra here but
goes out of his way to tie it into a
deeper cultural context it's a great
paper it's linked in the description
below you should definitely check it out
he points out that quote shape-shifting
it for males is not linked to a single
moment or phase in their lives for them
it's a constant attribute one that
presents throughout their narratives and
does not seem to be linked to any
particular societal structures women on
the other hand seem to lose the ability
to shape-shift after marriage and
generally they use it to get away from
marriage he argues in other words
marriage solidifies an identity of a
woman by transferring ownership of them
to men
Armand goes into the maestra myth as
told by Hesiod in the catalogue of women
which he states is the most detailed
version of it maesters father Eris wig
thong is cursed with an insatiable
appetite after ticking off de mettre in
which he feeds by marrying off his
daughter to sea so forces a sonic
Glaukos he's promised a head 'no or
bride price of a ton of cattle goat and
sheep which are all edible animals later
there are missing segments but
Faina is called in after she returns to
her father a judgment is rendered in
favor of Sisyphus and mistress father is
forced to pay Sisyphus in mules later
posted on claims maestra she has a son
with him and Meister returns to Athens
to care for her father daddy little girl
indeed our monde argues that this is a
representation of women's instability of
identity just after marriage and before
the integration into the Oikos or the
home the woman literally becomes
something else in order to avoid
integration with the man's identity as
women in Greece were primarily referred
to in relation to their husbands and
fathers he references other miss those
of Thais and nemesis where women also
shape-shift in an attempt to escape
consummation of marriage and thereby
absorption of their identities into the
Oikos the language used in the segment
involving Qusay dawn or Mandar coos
translates to taming which is primarily
used in this myths to refer to the
unpredictable wildness of women being
vanquished by integration in the
household plus a dawn marries her she
has his son and her transformational
ability vanishes as all the others did
this myth also represents a conflict
between maesters loyalties to her father
and all of her potential husbands to
whom does she belong the myth comes out
firmly on the side of the husband
according to Ormond though mr. very
clearly disagrees given her exploits
hence the shape-shifting familial
loyalty is at the heart of her identity
conflict I highly suggest taking a look
at the paper in the description below
it's well worth the read for the deep
dive and other myths involving female
transformation
suffice to say it was definitely
allegorical which brings us to a uses
licensure sex Lloyd in the many stories
where he said to act out he transforms
himself into animals or people in order
to trick women into sleeping with him
there are some authors who argue this is
also to protect humans from the awesome
power of the divine but the evidence for
this is a bit messy depending on the
period we're talking about the trickery
here is reminiscent of the traits of
Afro DJ and her attendant eros as noted
by Arthur Arthur also notes that Zaius
gains his use of power through
gift-giving but still retains the
violent predilections of his prior male
counterparts it takes some time for me
to calm down in other words also given
the context above henna transforming
women into other things in order to save
them from saves is itself an act of
mercy in these myths rather than
something spiteful or jealous
they are saved from being corrupted by
Zaius his trickery brought on by his
male nature not my view the view of the
mythmakers men can keep stuff in their
pants trust me I believe that and
finally we come to the epoch of Ages and
the end of the gods exploits in the
mortal realm according to a paper from
the transactions of the American
Philosophical Association by Jose M
Gonzalez even Hesiod's works are not
considered episodic concessions to one
another though they do cross-reference
one another at least in part when we
look at these things in cultural context
Gonzalez argues well we see in the Age
of Heroes where most of these stories
take place is Zaius transferring the
conflict of succession unto humans
thus explaining the birth death rebirth
cycle human families experience
remember that also in Greek society once
places an individual mattered
significantly less than one's family
line at least where many of these
stories were written Deus is said in the
epoch of Ages to desire to bring an end
to all the demigod children of the gods
to destroy their place on the earth and
leave humans separate from the gods in
the age of iron which is the one we live
in now by destroying all of the demigod
children of the god and forbidding
further intercourse in the future
Isaiah brings an end to the debauchery
in which he himself takes part and
declares that never again will the gods
walk directly among men so where am I
going with all of this I think that I
made a pretty strong case that all of
these stories although they do show some
of the gods as attributes and where they
were said to originate from were meant
more as teaching tools and explanatory
mechanisms for the way trick society
functions in other words although there
are truths about the gods revealed in
them ultimately these stories are more
about us and what differentiates us from
the gods as well as why our society is
said to be as it is which brings me back
to the opening question how can I
worship such violent deities given that
these myths were written within cultural
context to explain cultural phenomena by
people who could only understand the
inspiration that potentially came from
divine sources through the eyes of that
culture I think it's safe to say that
these stories aren't literally true the
gods didn't literally do these things
meaning that the answer is no they us
isn't a predator but Greek culture
portrayed him that way due to their own
understanding of their culture and how
men and women related to one another I
can grant that these myths were divinely
inspired without agreeing that the
divine inspiration is somehow infallible
or ineffable as far as I can tell when a
divine being inspires a person what they
get is some kind of message about the
nature of that being which the person
then translates into ideas they can
understand a message about they use
being the divine ruler of the gods
translates to stories about Zeus doing
things that the patriarchal heads of
houses in ancient Greece did it doesn't
mean he did those things only that the
culture the poets resided in saw these
as the things heads of homes did this is
part of why distinguishing mythology and
story
from morals and society is so important
mythology can teach us some things about
the gods that save us is divine ruler
that f no DJ has aspects of madness in
her rulership that is same as wisdom
Springs from a union of masculine and
feminine but it cannot teach us more
than our own cultural understanding will
allow and when we look at it through a
modern lens we must exegete within
cultural context rather than ISO
cheating with our modern biases the
ancient Greeks promoted predatory
behavior not the gods Hey thank you so
much for sticking through that with me
if you're new here and you haven't
already scroll down there and hit that
subscribe button and do something
terrible to the Bell I don't know throw
it out the window or something before
you ring it pop down into the comments
section and let me know if you learned
anything new or if you have any further
questions you'd like me to go forward
with a new video or even if this
elucidated is a little bit of the
reasons why some people might be willing
to worship the ancient Greek gods
despite how messed up the mythology
seems to be I really wanted to put this
forward as sort of an idea why many of
us might still be able to tolerate our
gods despite these myths special thanks
to Gaelic knocks for the amazing artwork
that they do for my channel the link is
in the description below to their
website and their Twitter and remember
we're stronger together
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