How the porn industry targets children – Julie Bindel & Pala Molisa | Action Men
Summary
TLDRIn this episode of 'Action Men', Julie Bindel engages in a thought-provoking conversation with Pala H., a retrained Body Mind therapist and former accounting PhD, about the intersection of feminism, sexual exploitation, and the sex trade. Pala shares her experiences growing up in a politically active family in Vanuatu and her observations on the erasure of early radical feminist critiques. They discuss the impact of pornography on young minds, the business model of the porn industry, and the importance of addressing the darker aspects of patriarchal culture. The conversation emphasizes the need for intergenerational dialogue within feminism and the challenge of bridging the gap between different feminist perspectives.
Takeaways
- 🎧 The impact of the sex trade on young minds is a concern, with the industry targeting children to secure lifelong customers.
- 🌍 Pala Melisa's background in accounting for sustainable development and retraining in Body Mind therapy shaped her views on sexual exploitation.
- 📚 The importance of radical honesty in personal lives is emphasized as a feminist principle, connecting the personal to the political.
- 👩💼 Pala's mother was an advocate for women's rights in Banatu, influencing her understanding of the intersection of feminism and decolonization.
- 📖 Pala's essay on breaking the silence on prostitution and rape culture highlighted the role of racism, colonialism, and imperialism in the sex trade.
- 🎓 The erasure of early radical critiques of patriarchal culture in academia is a concern for Pala, who seeks to bring these discussions back to light.
- 🧠 The powerful influence of sexual drives on human psychology makes the shaping of young minds by pornography particularly concerning.
- 💰 The business model of big porn companies is likened to that of tobacco, aiming to create lifelong, dependent customers.
- 🔄 The dopamine cycle and addiction are key factors in the escalation of pornography consumption, leading to a demand for more extreme content.
- 🚫 The public discourse on these issues is often hindered by shame and blame, rather than constructive conversation and understanding.
- 🌈 The need for unity and dialogue within the feminist movement across generations and ideologies is emphasized to address current power structures effectively.
Q & A
What is the main argument presented about the business model of big porn companies?
-The main argument is that big porn companies target children's minds during their formative years, specifically between the ages of four and adolescence, to shape their sexual preferences and ensure lifelong loyalty as customers. This is likened to the strategies used by the tobacco and tech industries.
How does the guest, Pala, connect her personal background to her views on feminism and sexual exploitation?
-Pala's mother was a vocal advocate for women's rights and was part of the leadership that took Vanuatu to independence. Pala grew up witnessing her mother's struggle against patriarchy and the marginalization of women in politics, which influenced her understanding of feminism and the need to challenge sexual exploitation and discrimination.
What is the significance of the term 'radical honesty' in the context of the conversation?
-Radical honesty is significant as it refers to the need for open and candid discussions about sensitive topics like sexual exploitation and discrimination. It emphasizes the importance of being truthful in both personal and political realms to effectively address and combat these issues.
How does the essay written by Pala in 2015 contribute to the conversation on prostitution and rape culture?
-Pala's essay contributes by highlighting the elements of racism, colonialism, and imperialism inherent in the system of prostitution. It critiques the left for not addressing the abuse and exploitation of women of color, Indigenous women, and black women within the sex trade, pointing out the need for a more inclusive and intersectional approach to feminism.
What is the 'dopamine cycle' mentioned in the discussion, and how does it relate to pornography consumption?
-The 'dopamine cycle' refers to the neurological process where dopamine, a neurotransmitter associated with pleasure and reward, is released in response to stimuli. In the context of pornography, it suggests that as consumers become desensitized to certain content, they seek out more degrading and violent forms of pornography to maintain the same level of excitement, thus creating a cycle of addiction.
How does the concept of 'cultural amnesia' apply to the erasure of early radical critiques of patriarchal culture?
-Cultural amnesia describes the phenomenon where significant historical critiques and intellectual contributions, such as those from first-generation radical feminists, are forgotten or overlooked over time. This leads to a lack of awareness and understanding of the roots and evolution of feminist thought, which can hinder progress in addressing current societal issues.
What is the main criticism of public discourse on topics like sexual exploitation and pornography?
-The main criticism is that public discourse is often built on the politics of shame and blame, which is counterproductive. It is argued that effective communication requires understanding and acknowledging each other's common humanity, rather than demonizing or shaming those with differing views.
What does Pala suggest as a solution to the disconnect between different generations of feminists?
-Pala suggests that there should be a concerted effort to bring different generations of feminists together for open and honest dialogue. This includes recognizing the unique experiences and perspectives of younger women, while also acknowledging the historical context and contributions of older feminists.
How does Pala propose engaging young men in the conversation about women's liberation and male violence?
-Pala proposes that engagement should start by entering the world of young men and building trust, rather than immediately asking them to adopt a political stance. By genuinely getting to know them and their experiences, a more authentic and empowering dialogue can be fostered.
What is the key message Pala wants to convey about the role of agency and choice in the context of the sex trade?
-Pala emphasizes the importance of recognizing the agency and choices individuals exercise, while also challenging the notion that freedom and choice can emerge from lives heavily restricted by social class, racism, and patriarchy. She argues that both perspectives are necessary for a comprehensive understanding of the issues.
How does the conversation address the issue of ideological infighting within feminist movements?
-The conversation points out that ideological infighting and the inability to connect across different factions of feminism can be detrimental to the movement. It calls for a conscious effort to address biases and work towards unity in the face of common goals, such as dismantling patriarchy.
Outlines
🌟 Introduction to the Conversation on Feminism and Sex Trade
The video script begins with a discussion on the overlooked aspects of the sex trade, particularly by the left, and highlights the business model of major porn companies. The introduction of the guest, Pala Melisa, is made, setting the stage for a deep dive into the intersection of feminism, sex trade, and the societal impact. Pala shares her background, emphasizing the importance of personal honesty and emotional work in aligning with feminist principles.
📚 Historical Context and the Erasure of Radical Feminism
This paragraph delves into the historical context of feminism, noting the cycles of consciousness raising and societal breakthroughs, followed by conservative backlash and cultural amnesia. The speaker reflects on the erasure of early radical critiques of patriarchal culture, especially within the context of the Pacific and the impact of political shifts on intellectual climates. The discussion also touches on the role of media and technology in shaping sexual psychology and the formation of addictions, particularly in young people.
🚀 The Porn Industry's Business Model and its Impact
The conversation shifts to the business model of the porn industry, which targets young minds to ensure a customer base for life. The paragraph discusses the role of dopamine in forming addictions and the industry's strategy of escalating content to maintain consumer interest. The impact of this model on sexual expectations and the normalization of violence and degradation is critiqued. The discussion references Gail Dines' work on 'Pornland' and her insights into the industry's focus on profit over sexual health.
💡 Addressing the Taboos and the Role of Public Discourse
This paragraph addresses the challenges in public discourse around sensitive topics like the sex trade, highlighting the issues with shame and blame politics. The speaker advocates for a nuanced approach that acknowledges individual agency while critiquing structural inequalities. The conversation touches on the need for intergenerational dialogue within feminism and the importance of recognizing the diversity of experiences and perspectives within the movement.
🌐 The State of Contemporary Feminism and the Need for Unity
The discussion moves to the current state of feminism, reflecting on the strengths and weaknesses of different waves of feminist thought. The speaker calls for a unification of efforts across generations and ideologies to effectively challenge patriarchal structures. The paragraph emphasizes the need for direct critique of power, recognition of multiplicity, and a focus on the基层 rather than just the glass ceiling. The importance of intergenerational dialogue and understanding is reiterated, with a desire for a collective feminist movement that is inclusive and forward-thinking.
📢 Engaging Men in the Conversation on Women's Liberation
The final paragraph focuses on the importance of involving men in the conversation about women's liberation. The speaker discusses strategies for effective communication with young men, emphasizing the need to meet them where they are rather than imposing preconceived political notions. The paragraph highlights the value of understanding and empathy in building a truly inclusive and empowering movement for gender equality.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Sex trade
💡Feminism
💡Prostitution
💡Pornography
💡Sexual exploitation
💡Radical honesty
💡Dopamine cycle
💡Cultural amnesia
💡Decolonization
💡Accountability
💡Cancel culture
Highlights
The discussion focuses on the overlooked aspects of the sex trade and its impact on society, particularly on young minds.
The business model of big porn companies is likened to that of tobacco, targeting young minds for lifelong customer loyalty.
The importance of radical honesty in personal lives is emphasized as a feminist principle.
The guest, Pala, shares her journey from accounting for sustainable development to body-mind therapy and psychosomatics.
Pala's mother was a vocal advocate for women's rights and witnessed the marginalization of women in politics post-independence.
The essay by Pala on breaking the silence on prostitution and rape culture addresses the intersectionality of racism, colonialism, and imperialism in the sex trade.
Pala discusses the erasure of early radical critiques of patriarchal culture in academic and political spheres.
The role of pornography in shaping the sexual psychology of young people is explored, including the dopamine cycle and addiction.
The book 'Pornland' by Gail Dines is mentioned, which outlines the business model of the porn industry as being about money, not sex.
The impact of pornography on men who commit sexual assault is discussed, with one inmate claiming he was 'groomed' by porn.
The public discourse is criticized for being built on shame and blame, rather than constructive conversation.
Pala reflects on her own communication style and the importance of recognizing people's sovereignty and free choice.
Feminism is discussed as a political movement with its strengths and blind spots across different waves.
The need for intergenerational dialogue within feminism is emphasized to address biases and connect different factions.
The challenge of engaging young men in the struggle for women's liberation is addressed, with a call for understanding their perspectives.
Pala suggests connecting with young people by entering their world, rather than asking them to step into ours.
The importance of acknowledging the reality and conclusions of younger generations in building an inclusive empowering movement is highlighted.
Transcripts
there is this complete other side to the
Sixx trade that the left is still not
looking
[Music]
at the business model of a lot of these
big porn companies if you can get a
kid's mind between four and Adolescence
you've got a customer for life this is
how they hook the kids
in hello I'm Julie bindle and this is
action men a series in which I have
interesting conversations with men that
actually get up off their backsides and
contribute to the work that feminists
are doing to prevent rape domestic
violence and challenge pornography and
the sex trade my guest for this week is
Pala Melisa I read an article he'd
written where he described prostitution
as oppressive and unacceptable and for
that he was roundly punished here is
Pala H it's so good to speak to you it's
been a long time since we last had a
conversation and I'd just love you to
tell everyone who you are and how you
got to where you are today well I'm from
vanu I've lived in New Zealand
for um most of my life I did my PhD in
accounting for sustainable development
and then in 2018 I ended up retraining
in Body Mind therapy
psychosomatics and you know Julie we
talk about the importance of um radical
honesty in in the political realm when
it comes to dealing with topics like
sexual exploitation and discrimination
and
inequality the thing I realized in 2018
was it's in some ways even more primary
to have that Honesty in our own personal
lives I mean really that's been the
feminist injunction to make the personal
the personal is the
political um I had to come to that
realization the hard way by going
through
gal um but it's been one of the best
things that I've also gone through
because it's really got
me uh aware of just how important uh
emotional work of and and really the
least glamorous W of like making sure
our relationship with the most important
people out in our lives is actually good
and complete and has integrity and
that's something that you've written
about and spoken out about in the past
haven't you because I came across your
work in
2015 with a
brilliant essay that you wrote in um in
an online magazine about breaking the
silence on prostitution and rape culture
where you also spoke about the elements
of racism and colonialism and
imperialism M inherent to the system of
prostitution that the left would not
address I mean we knew that they
wouldn't address the male left wouldn't
address the abuse that came from the
misogyny involved but you spoke very
eloquently about what white men do to
women of color and Indigenous women and
black women
um and and yet seem to get a kind of
free pass for that can you tell me what
led up to you writing that
essay yeah well I started off so my
mother was a a long time
um uh a long time uh an outspoken
advocate of women's rights in in banatu
and and within and throughout the
Pacific um and I kind of I grew up
listening to her give these speeches
um but it wasn't until I got to and this
was in the 70s and 80s so Mom and Dad
were
both um part of that leadership core
that took vanatu to Independence against
the British and French um in the 1970s
and Van to became independent in
1980 and so what Mom experienced growing
up was uh with me growing up watching
Mom was this experience of fighting
alongside my dad and the other men in
that decolonization struggle only to go
into Power after
Independence and then to see the men
systematically push the women aside from
all the top political positions that
were quite available to them and
mom um mom basically didn't let them get
away with it and she mobilized you know
all their resources to call attention to
that inequity
within vanatu indigenous culture which
didn't make her very popular you know we
had our house burned down and her you
know Mom you know ured
quite uh quite strong forms of backlash
over the years really and yeah and and
you know just seeing her example of
never backing down it it St with me as a
boy and wasn't until I got to
University and when I started my PhD
really and I really started deep diving
into the history of feminism not just
within the Pacific but worldwide and
that's when I started to pick up that
there are these you know I I tend to see
life
as it it really is a real thing that our
our our histories and not just our
political histories they go through
these Cycles
of of of Consciousness raising and huge
breakthroughs at the societal level and
at the cultural level and then it's kind
of like a pendulum swing and then
conservative
forces there's a backlash that comes
against them and then there's this thing
of cultural Amnesia and this erasing of
that history that takes place so when I
was
reading uh you know I would I did my PhD
in the mid
2000s so even back then a lot of the
Erasure of some of the early radical
critiques of patriarchal culture that
pacific feminists were putting out in
the 70s and ' 80s no one really knew
about them you know the the political
Amnesia at school at University level
also said it and so those first
generation radic rical feminists and I'm
talking
indigenous radical
feminists um a lot of you know they were
almost unknown at University level
because even at Vic at the time for
instance women's studies had shut down I
think gender studies if it wasn't shut
down by then was on the way out so you
could see how the intellectual climate
quite closely uh correlated with the
political shifts at the social level at
the societal level so one of the points
that I really tried to do with my
writing was just to do my best to bring
back and to call attention that hey
there's actually these older critiques
that in a lot of ways are actually
asking really relevant questions for
understanding the political situation
now when it comes to
looking really
deeply and honestly at some of the
darker aspects of patriarchal culture
that we don't tend to talk about that
much such as the sex industry such as
prostitution and
pornography what's your take on the kind
of the role that pornography plays in
the sex education quote unquote of our
young people right now are you talking
about that where you are when you think
about um how our sexuality gets formed
over time from growing
up that sexual drive is itself such a
powerful shape of human psychology
because of it's it's deeply tied to the
needs the fundamental drives of the
human
body um or or the body mind as I like to
call it cuz it you can't really separate
body from
mind um and because it's got that deep
Ro
rooted um
embeddedness in in the body mind system
you know anything that can that can
shape um our our the human psychology in
that fundamental Way by linking it to
the sex
drives um and of course if you look at
the research that's coming out actually
that's been around for a while of how
companies especially tech companies and
some of the biggest companies in the
world it's actually part of their model
to consciously Target the the the the
the formation of our our children's
mental development right as they used to
with with cigarettes with the tobacco
the tobacco industry did exactly the
same that's right and and the principle
is you know if you can get a kid's mind
between Z and four and of course in the
the formative years between four and
Adolescence you've got a cons a customer
for Life you've got a loyal customer for
life and of course if you have a look at
the business model of a lot of these big
porn
companies um they've actually had as
part of their business model they're
offering a free porn because of course
kids don't have disposable income but of
course every kid but you know every
kid's got iPhones now right especially
in the western world
so if you can offer that kind of access
to your kids and you start shaping their
own predispositions of what turns them
on say sexually you've got a customer
for life right and of course part of the
dopamine and we're getting into the
nitty-gritty of say the how the the
human mind forms these these addictions
and attachments it's that dopamine cycle
if you can get addicted to a certain
dopamine hurt in order to maintain its
Effectiveness you've got to ramp up the
stimulus and that's why a lot of these
porn companies too they feed in these
layers of feeding PE consumers more and
more degrading and violent forms of
pornography right because the the kids
and then the young men get almost immune
to what they've been seeing they want
something harder they want something
nastier and you're absolutely right Gail
d The Scholar who now runs cultur
reframed she's a Brit who's lived in in
Boston for for decades and she wrote
pornland brilliant book where she
outlines this business model where she
looks at the fact that the porn industry
is about money not sex these men are
turned on by money and of course as
you've outlined
eloquently This Is How They hook the
kids in Pepsi and Coca-Cola did it why
wouldn't the porn industry use that the
tobacco industry used it and Gail told
me a fascinating story about this
where she went to interview some men in
prison who had committed acts of rape
and sexual assault against underage
girls and boys so kids and she talked to
them about why and how and what was in
their mind at the time I think we've got
to do this stuff we've got to talk to
these men about where were they at the
time that they did that
and one man said to
her porn groomed me I mean yeah maybe he
was trying to kind of get
himself absolved of responsibility which
of course he would not he cannot but
there's something in that that that porn
actually gave him the blueprint of how
this works one of the problems we've got
in our public discourse at the moment is
most of the politics of public discourse
are built on the politics of Shame and
blame now now from a from a
psychological standpoint like you think
about this junior like just think about
it in terms of our our own families and
kids and our own relationships like you
try to get somewhere by blaming and
shaving your
partner forget it right all your
kids now
now it like blame blaming and shaming is
distinct from holding someone
responsible and accountable those are
two very different things but if you
look at most of our political discourse
around these
issues most of it if you really look
closely and and it's really a individual
by individual thing look at how someone
communicates across especially across
political AES and when people get worked
up emotionally and you lose the the
respect the respect goes out of your
speech and the name calling comes in and
actually Julie it's in both
sides uh you can't get into someone
else's
world if you're already if you've
already got these these
conclusions in your mind and someone's
just uh a complete enemy that you can't
actually see each other's common
humanity and and again recognizing
someone else's Humanity doesn't mean we
absolve anyone of responsibility and
accountability I agree and in fact this
is exactly what Gail
dyes says in her approach in cultur ref
framed the NGO that she runs which is
focused on talking to parents of teens
and pre-teens who are either consuming
porn or are definitely vulnerable to
consuming porn in a way that means the
parents can then take that message to
their kids without being anti- seex
without shaming them without saying that
what you're doing is dirty or bad or
wrong the opposite of that because as we
know this is the last way that we're
going to get through to kids and it's
also the same for adults and and
actually you have
been I would say these aren't your words
it's my words a victim of a kind of
cancel
culture yeah I um yeah that was a real
learning experience for me um
specifically it it it made me become
really aware of you know every every
Community even activist
communities um we've all got these
collectively held beliefs which kind of
imposes certain boundaries around what
can be said and uh what cannot be said
and what's speakable and what's
completely
unspeakable and just as a as a
consequence of how political history
unfolded throughout the decades from the
70s with the with that right-wing
backlash that came
in um and then the you know the the
sexual liberalization of culture
um that started to
mainstream uh pornography and
prostitution that the sex
industries um yeah you couldn't ask
questions
about uh well is there a is there a
darker side to to the sex trade is it is
it underg gured by these material
conditions like
homelessness and and and violence and
trafficking and and child trafficking so
so forth that that we don't like really
looking at or talking about because it
brings up kind of like the the
collective
hypocrisies that we that makes it hard
to acknowledge as part of our our
Collective
identity so me writing articles that
simply started not just calling
attention but literally kind of pointing
at that
sore um yeah
people generally don't react well to
that when their own political positions
and political identities are in a lot of
ways premised on the
acceptability of things like the sex
trade
um having said that too Julie I you know
I've I've also I've also learned and and
done my own self-reflection and you know
um and one of the things I've realized
is if I if I was really honest Julie and
I looked at my own way of communicating
my ideas and and and speaking out um
there was a condemnatory tone to my um
to my
voice um and again if if if I if I did
it again now and and my my stance at the
moment
I I'd still I'd still claim that my God
there is this complete other side to the
six trade that the left is still not
looking at that hardly any of our
activist groups across the Spectrum are
willing to look at I'd also say it's
really important when we look at these
issues and we also engage with other
people especially across the political l
that we're also really cognizant of
people's sovereignty and free choice now
when you put those two things next to
each other it's often a bit hard to see
how you can marry the two together you
know like and people tend to flip-flop
you it's either you know it's completely
oppressive the structure and there's no
Freedom or or there's freedom but now
you're just this
complete um uh you know
liberalistic uh person who doesn't know
a bar about what structural inequality
is all about I think both those two
positions are self-defeating and they're
actually false
choices I think in other words you you
can't deny that there is some agency or
some Choice that's exercised rather than
us
imposing uh something on women for
example and saying no I don't accept
this you are not choosing to be in the
sex trade something which I would never
say to a woman because I'd be telling
her she's either a liar or she's got
false consciousness but at the same time
challenging the notion that freedom and
choice can come out of a life so
restricted
by social class racism and patriarchy
poverty feminism's become fra should and
the way that I sometimes will
say will explain what I mean by splinted
and fractured is a way that is clearly I
hope humorous which is that there are
hundreds of ways to be a feminist but
most of them are wrong and that there is
something which is a kind of a basic
feminism with basic principles about
overcoming patriarchy and starting from
the bottom up so caring about the women
in the base not the women in the glass
ceiling
more but tell me what you think about
feminism as a political movement today
right now looking from your point of
view into that movement what's your
thoughts man great question Julie so
when I look at the present state of
contemporary
feminism um especially when I compare it
historically to say I mean Julie I don't
even know what wave we're up to if we've
gone through let's say five or six waves
of feminism and each of them are
actually historically and culturally
distinct there's a continuity across
these these ages of phases right first
gen and then radical feminism in the
70s I would say looking back on it and
describing it against third wave and
fourth wave feminism
is one of its strengths was there was a
directness to its critique of patriarchy
and the structural critique is probably
something that's
unmatched especially by the way it was
able to connect multiple uh vectors of
Oppression I'll put it that way from
colonization
imperialism to that close finally
focused look at um the realm of sex
itself and intercourse and sexuality
where these institutions like
pornography and prostitution really got
put under the
microscope then the third and fourth
wave comes along and they started losing
a lot of that really direct critique of
structure what they introduced though
was uh in some ways actually need a much
needed also injection of
of um let's call it multiplicity and the
recognition of cultural diversity and
difference now that's a strength of
theirs as well but at the same time both
both and I'm I know I'm drawing a simple
polarity like I'm not trying to reduce
the Nuance but what I'm saying is both
those positions had
strengths and both those positions also
had blind spots and lost something and I
think in order to develop a feminist you
know just speaking for myself in order
to develop a critique
of um current power structures now it
really requires a conscious effort to
address
biases on where on both wherever they
they happen to be and actually to get
away from this infighting amongst
ourselves it's an ideological war and
it's intergenerational and it's
cross-generational between different
factions of women all of whom are
feminists all of whom say we want to end
patriarchy and there's so many
different ways in
which we can't connect to each other and
reasons why we can't connect to each
other and my my God all my aim the thing
that I would if I could wave a magic
wand I would have this one wish granted
is that we get in a room together and
talk especially with younger women who
feel disconnected from older feminists
who think that we're irrelevant or who
think that porn and prostitution is now
empowering or who deny their own abuse
because they've been told it gives them
agency and at the same time we you know
because I'm very much from the second
wave we are losing the ability to talk
with younger women and acknowledge their
reality and
acknowledge how they have come to their
own conclusions about their
lives and at the same time P I want to
ask you it's a kind of final question
for
you is how do we get young men men of
all ages but in particularly young men
to recognize that the struggle for
women's
Liberation should be something that they
have a stake in how do we encourage them
and enable them to do the work to speak
amongst themselves
about male
violence and go through that educational
process that you've been through because
they might not they don't have moms most
of them don't have moms like the mom you
had
yeah the thing that I found
is it's it's not that effective to
connect to kids much less
boys
if if at the moment we open our mouth
we're asking them to step into our
world right it's like we've got these
political answers and they just need to
get with the program I mean you know
like you know that just that doesn't
work with our own kids for goodness sake
why do you think it would work as a
political strategy right yeah good point
right the way to connect with our kids
is forget the polit forget the political
issues like we'll get to
them take the time to un to to get into
their
world and actually just to to be in
their world with them man we do that
they'll tell us stuff that will knock
our socks
off I found I found that with
girls I think that's one of the biggest
blind spots we've got at the moment and
like I'm
generalizing um there's some amazing
work being done I'm making a general
point though that if you look
historically about how we've tried to
quote unquote change the
world uh I think we've got a about it
back to front I won't use the
Cruda Commonwealth way of putting it a
but you know ass
backwards uh you know but if if you
start by by getting wanting to really
get to know our young
people man I think that's more than half
the battle because when a kid feels God
man they'll tell you stuff you won't
even know about or expect and that's
actually the basis of building a
truly uh empowering movement that
actually includes everyone paa thank you
you've been the best best
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