Patriarchy Hurts All Of Us — Including Men | Hear Me Out

Summary

In this episode of 'Hear Me Out,' host Celeste Headley discusses the complexities of gender identity and politics with Robin Dembroff, a Yale philosophy professor. They challenge the traditional view of patriarchy, arguing that it's not a simple 'men vs. women' dynamic but a pervasive system affecting everyone, including men. The conversation explores how societal expectations of gender perpetuate inequality and harm across various groups, emphasizing the need for a nuanced understanding of gender as a fluid and socially constructed process.

Takeaways

• 🗣️ The podcast 'Hear Me Out' with host Celeste Headley discusses the complexities of gender identity and politics, especially during Pride Month, where there's been backlash against brands for supporting fluid gender identities.
• 🏳️‍🌈 Gender fluidity is not a new concept and has historical roots going back to the Iron Age and Copper Age, challenging the binary view of gender as simply a tug of war between two sexes.
• 💬 The guest, Robin Dembroff, argues that gender is not a noun but a verb, emphasizing that it is a process of constant social regulation and classification rather than a fixed identity.
• 👥 Dembroff posits that patriarchy is not just about men having power over women but is a system that oppresses everyone, including men, by enforcing rigid and harmful gender standards.
• 🚷 The podcast highlights that gender inequality and harm are systemic issues that affect various groups differently, and should not be oversimplified to a binary men vs. women issue.
• 👮‍♂️ Dembroff discusses how the concept of 'real men' is used to uphold a small group of elite men in power, often at the expense of others who do not fit these narrow definitions.
• 🤔 The conversation challenges the traditional understanding of patriarchy, suggesting it is not a system that benefits all men but rather a complex structure that perpetuates inequality.
• 🔍 The discussion emphasizes the importance of critically examining the ideas of manhood and womanhood that are internalized and how they affect behavior and societal expectations.
• 👗 The script touches on the backlash faced by public figures like Harry Styles for challenging gender norms, reflecting society's struggle with gender nonconformity.
• 💔 Dembroff shares personal anecdotes to illustrate the fluid and context-dependent nature of gender perception, arguing against the fixed categorization of gender.
• 🌐 The podcast concludes by encouraging listeners to be aware of the gender dynamics at play in everyday life and to question the impact of these dynamics on individuals and society.

Q & A

What is the main argument presented by Robin Dembroff in the podcast 'Hear Me Out'?

Robin Dembroff argues that the concept of patriarchy is more complex than simply a system that benefits men over women. Instead, they propose that patriarchy is a system designed to keep the most elite and wealthy men in power over everyone else, affecting all genders and social groups differently.

How does Robin Dembroff's perspective on gender differ from traditional views?

Robin Dembroff suggests that gender is not a noun but a verb, meaning it's an ongoing process of classifying and holding people accountable to certain standards, which can differ across contexts and individuals, rather than a fixed identity assigned at birth.

What is the term 'gendering' as used by Robin Dembroff?

'Gendering' refers to the process of classifying individuals as either a man or a woman and then holding them to certain societal standards based on those classifications, which are internalized and can vary among different people and contexts.

How does Dembroff explain the impact of gender on men of color and those with disabilities?

Dembroff explains that historically, ideas of manhood have been weaponized, particularly against men of color and those with disabilities, to push down the majority of men and to justify various forms of discrimination and inequality.

What does Robin Dembroff mean by 'real men'?

'Real men,' according to Dembroff, refers to a small group of institutional elites who most closely approximate society's most powerful ideas of what men are and should be, and this group is often used to justify and reinforce economic and social inequality.

How does the podcast episode address the issue of sexual harassment in the workplace?

The episode suggests that sexual harassment and discrimination in the workplace are more complex issues than a simple binary of men versus women, affecting different groups of people in various ways and highlighting the need to look beyond aggregate statistics to understand individual experiences.

What is the historical context of the term 'patriarchy' as discussed in the podcast?

The term 'patriarchy' originally referred to household power dynamics where the male head of the household held power over women and children. However, in the 1960s, radical feminists expanded the term to describe systemic gender inequality and harm throughout all aspects of society.

How does Robin Dembroff respond to the argument that testosterone makes men more prone to violence?

Dembroff recommends the book 'Testosterone: An Unauthorized Autobiography' by Rebecca Jordan-Young and Katrina Karkazis, which debunks the idea that testosterone inherently makes men more violent, suggesting that such beliefs are not scientifically supported.

What is the role of gender in the economic struggles faced by white working-class men, as discussed in the podcast?

The podcast suggests that during times of economic crisis, white working-class men may double down on traditional ideas of manhood to shore up their sense of self, which can lead to discriminatory attitudes and policies against other groups, as a way to cope with feelings of economic emasculation.

How does the podcast address the issue of chivalry and traditional gender roles in modern society?

The podcast encourages listeners to question the blueprints for manhood and womanhood they have internalized, suggesting that awareness of the impact of these roles on social interactions is essential before addressing larger questions of change.

What is the significance of the listener email shared at the end of the podcast?

The listener email serves as an example of the diverse opinions and perspectives on the topics discussed in the podcast, illustrating the complexity of issues like reparations and the importance of considering various viewpoints in these conversations.

Outlines

00:00

🌈 Introduction to Gender Politics and Backlash

The episode begins with host Celeste Headley introducing the topic of gender identity during Pride Month, highlighting the controversy surrounding brands like Bud Light and Target for supporting gender fluidity. The show aims to delve into the complexities of gender politics beyond the traditional feminist versus patriarchy narrative. Guest Robin Dembroff is introduced as challenging the binary view of gender and patriarchy, arguing that gender is a verb, a regulatory process affecting everyone, including men, in a patriarchal society.

05:01

🏳️‍🌈 Dismantling Binary Views of Gender and Patriarchy

In this paragraph, Robin Dembroff expands on the idea that gender is not a fixed identity but a fluid process of classification and regulation that varies across contexts. They challenge the binary understanding of gender and patriarchy, suggesting that the latter is not merely about male dominance but a more intricate system affecting everyone differently. Dembroff emphasizes that gender standards are influenced by various factors, including race and class, and that the concept of 'real men' at the top of the hierarchy is damaging to both men and women.

10:02

🔍 The Complexity of Gender Dynamics and Intersectionality

The conversation explores the intricate dynamics of gender, discussing how gender inequality and discrimination are not experienced uniformly across different groups. Statistics about workplace harassment and wage gaps are highlighted to illustrate the complexity, with a focus on how black men and women face unique challenges within the societal structure. The discussion underscores the importance of understanding the multifaceted nature of gender and its intersection with race, class, and other social factors.

15:03

📚 Historical and Academic Perspectives on Patriarchy

This section delves into the historical and academic evolution of the term 'patriarchy,' tracing its origins from household power dynamics to a broader systemic societal structure. The influence of radical feminists in the 1960s and the subsequent contributions of black, Chicana, and lesbian feminists in the 1980s are acknowledged for their role in shaping the understanding of patriarchy as a system that perpetuates gender inequality beyond the household, affecting all aspects of social life.

20:05

🤝 Navigating Gender Hierarchies and Intersectional Inequalities

The discussion continues with an examination of how gender hierarchies are constructed and maintained, using the historical example of North Carolina's post-Reconstruction era to illustrate how societal standards of manhood were manipulated to exclude black men from political power. The conversation highlights the interconnectedness of gender with race and class, and how these dynamics play out in various social contexts, including within the African-American community.

25:09

💪 Challenging Traditional Masculinity and its Societal Impact

The paragraph addresses the societal implications of traditional masculinity, including its role in perpetuating violence and aggression. It also tackles the misconception that men are universally benefited by patriarchy, emphasizing instead that the system serves to maintain the power of a small, elite group of men. The conversation touches on the importance of questioning and redefining individual concepts of manhood and womanhood to promote positive self-actualization and interpersonal relationships.

30:12

🤔 Philosophical Reflections on Gender and Real-World Applications

In the final paragraph, the conversation turns to the practical implications of the philosophical discussions on gender. The host and guest consider everyday social interactions, such as chivalry, and the importance of being aware of the internalized gender expectations that influence behavior. The guest encourages introspection and a critical examination of the blueprints for manhood and womanhood that individuals have internalized, advocating for a more conscious and respectful approach to gender dynamics.

Keywords

💡Gender Identity

Gender identity refers to a person's internal sense of being male, female, or something else, and may not necessarily align with their biological sex. In the video, gender identity is a central theme, with discussions around its fluidity and the societal implications of recognizing non-binary and gender-fluid identities. The script mentions backlash against brands for supporting the concept of gender identities as fluid.

💡Patriarchy

Patriarchy is a social system in which men hold primary power and predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, and social privilege. The video explores the concept that patriarchy is not just about male dominance over women but is a complex system that affects everyone, including men, in different ways. The term is redefined to describe a system that elevates a small group of 'real men' or institutional elites.

💡Cisgender

Cisgender is a term used to describe individuals whose gender identity matches the sex they were assigned at birth. In the script, Celeste Headley clarifies the difference between sex and gender identity, using 'cisgender' as an example of someone whose gender identity aligns with their biological sex.

💡Transgender

Transgender refers to individuals whose gender identity differs from the sex they were assigned at birth. The script touches on transgender identity as part of the broader conversation on gender fluidity and the challenges faced by those who do not identify as cisgender.

💡Non-Binary

Non-binary is a term used to describe a gender identity that doesn't fit within the traditional binary understanding of male and female. The video discusses non-binary identities as part of the spectrum of gender identities that have existed historically and are recognized in contemporary society.

💡Gender Fluidity

Gender fluidity is the concept that an individual's gender identity may change over time or vary in different contexts. The script uses the term to challenge the binary view of gender and to discuss the backlash against brands that acknowledge and support this concept.

💡Real Men

In the context of the video, 'real men' refers to a small group of institutional elites who embody the most powerful societal ideas of masculinity. The term is used to critique the idea that patriarchy benefits all men, suggesting instead that it serves to maintain the power of a select few.

💡Incels

Incels, short for 'involuntary celibates,' are individuals who feel disadvantaged in the dating market and may harbor resentment towards women and societal norms. The script mentions incels in the context of discussing the backlash against the idea that men also suffer in a patriarchal society.

💡Racial Dynamics

Racial dynamics refer to the way race and ethnicity influence social interactions and power structures. The video discusses how racial dynamics intersect with gender, using examples such as the historical weaponization of ideas of manhood against men of color.

💡Systemic Inequality

Systemic inequality is the unequal treatment of individuals or groups within institutions and systems. The script argues that patriarchy is not about men versus women but is a system that perpetuates systemic inequality, affecting everyone in different ways.

💡Social Constructs

Social constructs are concepts or categories that are created and defined by society. In the video, gender is described as a social construct, and the script explores how societal expectations and norms around gender contribute to the complex regulatory process of gendering.

Highlights

The discussion explores the complexity of gender identity and politics, challenging the traditional binary view of gender.

Backlash against brands like Bud Light and Target for acknowledging fluid gender identities during Pride Month is highlighted.

The argument that gender is not only a social construct but a verb, constantly in action between individuals, is presented.

The idea that patriarchy is not just about men versus women but a more nuanced system affecting everyone, including men, is discussed.

Robin Dembroff's personal experience with androgyny and the fluidity of gender perception is shared.

The historical context of gender fluidity, dating back to the Iron Age and Copper Age, is mentioned.

The impact of societal perceptions on the workplace, such as the gender pay gap and the portrayal of men as weak, is examined.

The conversation delves into the complexities of gender dynamics, including the intersection with race and class.

The concept of 'real men' as a small group of institutional elites who benefit from societal gender norms is introduced.

The role of gender in perpetuating economic and social inequality, particularly against men of color and those with disabilities, is discussed.

The evolution of the term 'patriarchy' from household power to a broader systemic societal arrangement is explained.

The argument that gender inequality is not a binary issue between men and women but a more complex interplay of power is presented.

The historical example of North Carolina's 'best man' campaign to maintain white elite power through gendered standards is cited.

The discussion addresses the misconception that testosterone is the cause of male aggression and violence.

The potential for redefining masculinity and femininity on an individual level, beyond societal expectations, is encouraged.

The conversation concludes with a call for awareness and reevaluation of internalized gender norms and their impact on daily interactions.

Transcripts

this is hear me out I'm your host

Celeste Headley you're no doubt aware of

the hot button issue that is gender

identity during this pride month we have

seen backlash against Brands like Bud

Light and target for recognizing and in

that way tacitly supporting the fact

that gender identities exist and are

fluid but a fluid gender spectrum is

just another layer on the cake of

complicated gender politics in our

country for a long time we've thought of

this stuff as feminism versus patriarchy

but our guest today argues that it's

much much more complicated than that

they argue that not only is gender a

verb not a noun but that everyone hurts

in a patriarchal society including men

you can start to see that the way that

gendering actually works is not to lift

men up and push women down gender is a

very complex regulatory process that is

constantly happening between us and

every single person that we encounter

Robin dembroff joins us on today's

episode of hear me out stay with us

blazing deals boundless options it's hot

girl summer at Whole Foods Market from

June 14th through July 4th fire up the

grill with quality cuts at the best

prices we're talking animal welfare

certified meat check out the sales on

bone-in ribeye beef kebabs and New York

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don't forget the pie either get grilling

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we're back on hear me out a podcast from

Slate I'm Celeste Headley before pride

month ends we want to chat about another

Hot Topic in this country gender

politics sure a big part of lgbtq plus

identity is often sexuality but it's

often also related to gender identity as

a reminder

sex is what you're born with gender is

how you identify so if your gender

identity matches the sex you were

assigned at Birth you are cisgender I'm

cisgender if not you might be

transgender or non-binary or gender

fluid or any number of identities that

are all grouped together under the queer

umbrella gender fluidity is not a new

thing there are examples of non-binary

humans going back thousands of years to

the Iron Age and even the copper age but

if gender is fluid it's more difficult

to frame it as a tug of war between two

Sexes lgbtq plus rights are under attack

throughout the country and in some ways

the binary is being enforced more

aggressively than ever there are still

those who say despite all evidence to

the contrary that women are not

disadvantaged in the workplace that

there is no gender pay Gap and if a

woman is a breadwinner she's

emasculating the men in her life but if

she stays at home she's lazy and men are

still seen as weak when they express

emotions that are not either anger or

courage and windsing or Harry Styles

wears a dress on the cover of Vogue

pundits angrily declare that masculinity

is dead Harry Styles please stick to

Armani menswear or at least pants you

look ridiculous and the pearls are a

really bad look

the United States is still very much a

patriarchal society and sometimes that

basic truth is interpreted to mean that

while the rest of us struggle cisgender

men have it made so long as they conform

to gender expectations so no ballet no

watercolors gentlemen fighting the

patriarchy to make this country safer

and more Equitable for all of us

requires knowing what we're up against

so what if the patriarchy isn't Men

first everyone else lasts and instead

patriarchy is everybody's enemy

including men Robin denbrough an

assistant professor in Yale's philosophy

Department joins us to make that

argument hi Robin hi thank you for

having me

I'm really excited for this conversation

because as a non-binary person

I suspect you have thought about this in

ways I have not

um tell me your argument in a nutshell

to begin this you as I understand it

believe that patriarchy

um hurts men equally to an equal degree

that it hurts women

is that right yeah before we get to that

question I think we need to start a few

steps back so I actually want to go to

something you said in the intro when you

said sex is something you're born with

and gender is something you identify as

I actually think the picture is much

more complicated so to tell you a little

bit about me that helps you understand

my perspective on gender I grew up as

someone who is very androgynous from as

early as I could remember like my body

stayed the same as I moved between

various contexts whether it was at the

grocery store at church with my family

on a sports team but the way people

gendered me changed drastically

depending on what space I was in and

even which person I was talking to some

people saw me as a boy other people saw

and treated me as a girl and yet other

people would ask is that a boy or a girl

right to my mother's great dismay and so

what that taught me is that yes there

are physical features that we're born

with that are certainly relevant to

understanding how gender operates in our

world but how you get categorized as

male or female or as a man or as a a

woman is itself a set of social

standards that can differ across people

and differ across contexts and what that

constant moving taught me was that

gender is not a noun gender is a verb

gender is gender ing it's the process of

classifying each other as either a man

or a woman and then holding that person

accountable to certain standards that

we've internalized which again differ

quite a lot across people in context for

what's expected of you as a man or as a

woman so hold that part fixed right that

gender is gender Inc gender is some is a

form of Regulation that we do to each

other that we do to ourselves all the

time and that institutions like the

state and financial markets do to us and

so then when you add to that that the

standards for what it takes to classify

someone as a man or a woman and then the

standards that they're held to as a man

as a woman thoroughly integrate things

like Notions of capital racial meanings

meanings of disability all of these

sorts of things you can start to see

that the way that gendering actually

works is not to lift men up and push

women down gender is a very complex

regulatory process that is constantly

happening not only between ourselves and

ourselves but between us and every

single person that we encounter and the

way that that process works is not to

create a binary hierarchy the way that

process works is to push down women but

to many various degrees depending on how

well they approximate powerful ideas of

what women should be which are white

which are wealthy Etc they push down the

majority of men and we can see this

historically how ideas of what manhood

is have been weaponized particularly

against men of color against men with

disabilities against queer men and what

this process actually does is lift one

very small group to the top which is a

group I call real men which is the group

of institutional Elites who most closely

approximate our most powerful ideas in

our society of what men are and what men

should be describe that group this tiny

first of all I totally get that there

are some some among our listeners who

are are maybe not keeping up here we are

talking about gender and sexuality and

Society in ways that are maybe new to

some people and that's okay that's okay

totally all right because all the things

that you're talking about are to some

people very new ways to think about it

and

in many ways that's exactly why you're

talking about it that this way because

we've all been trained in a certain way

to view gender and sexuality and society

and culture and

um this is kind of the work that you do

is saying it doesn't have to be thought

about this way so that's okay if you're

you're feeling like you're lagging

behind it's all right but can you

describe this group that you'd call the

real men what does that look like I

think that real men are in effect the

billionaires the wealthy male

billionaires of the world who have

amassed the world's wealth and used many

different kinds of ideas to justify and

reinforce that economic and social

inequality and gender is one of their

main sets of ideas that they use to

justify that inequality and to create

division against everyone below them so

that they don't actually address the

income and social inequality okay so

with that said

um in terms of clarifying what is meant

by gender let let's go to the argument

about patriarchy

and what I asked was whether the simple

description of your view is that

patriarchy hurts men to an equal degree

that it hurts women is that accurate I

don't think that the group's men and

women have the kind of uniform

experiences of gender that would allow

us to make that kind of comparison so

for example it's true that white men

earn more than white women in the

workplace but white women earn more than

both black men and Hispanic men in the

workplace right they're median hourly

wage is actually higher so when we talk

about the groups men and women we're

talking about groups of people who have

such vastly different experiences of

being a man or of being a woman that I

don't think it makes sense to use those

two groups as a men versus women

comparison so you don't think that it's

at all useful

to talk about gender even as a research

topic to to talk about sexual harassment

or sexual discrimination in the

workplace oh I absolutely think we

should talk about those things I just

think that we are not getting the

picture right if we pretend that sexual

harassment and so on only affects women

or affects women equally or affects men

equally right actually the statistics

about who experiences these things in

the workplace in prison all these

contexts is much more complicated than a

binary picture would suggest

that's sort of like the the issue with

any statistics right I mean no no

statistic refers to an individual they

always refer to averages I mean in order

to get any kind of picture of a of a

demographic you're you're going to get a

picture of an unreal person I mean we're

identifying Trends right so when we talk

about

uh Trends within the workplace or over

studying any kind of discrimination or

Prejudice we're always talking about the

aggregate

we're never talking about specific

people that's sort of the nature of the

study right yes you have to aggregate to

do studies but what I think is true of

gender is that the way gender Works

which is a form of again controlling or

regulating People based on our ideas

about manhood and Womanhood those aren't

ideas that create a binary hierarchy

actually you know one of the most I

think victimized Group by those ideas in

our country is black men I mean and

obviously black women I'm not I'm not

trying to do a comparison here but the

fact that more than one in four black

men are incarcerated in our society is

not a irrelevant question to the

question of what gender does in our

society the positioning of black men as

hyper masculine as Predators as

criminals all of these things in order

to justify a carceral system that takes

them out of the workforce and gives an

economic surplus in doing so to White

working class men that's that's part of

the way gender works it also has to do

with the competition of manhood between

white men of color and the fact that

white men are trying to hold on to their

place as higher in the hierarchy of

manhood than men of color so what I'm

saying is that the Dynamics of gender

are not something that happen only

between men and women and nor do they

happen only in One Direction between men

and women see for example the history of

white women being complicit and taking

part in lynch mobs against black men

right those are gender dynamics that are

happening between men and women but

actually the power Dynamic is flipped

because of the way that gender works

yeah I guess we'll take a break in just

a few minutes but I wonder

I wonder how much of that is patriarch

you know you're the professor here so I

want to be clear here when we talk about

patriarchy we're talking about a system

in which

the father or the the the the male

head of a family or group is the most

powerful in a group or in which the men

hold power in in a group of humans and

women are excluded from it or a

community where it's organized on on men

having the power is that what we're

talking about when we talk about

patriarchy so here I think we have to go

to the history of the term patriarchy

originally the term patriarchy within

academic study meant what you're talking

about a form of household power that

comes from Greco-Roman tradition of

giving a man in a household power over

the woman or women and children in his

household but what happened in the 1960s

and what gave us the notion of

patriarchy we have today is that radical

feminists said hey gender hierarchy

gender inequality gender harm doesn't

only happen in the household this is

something that happens in every sphere

of life and so they took the term

patriarchy and they said let's use this

term instead to talk about the

arrangement of our society that creates

that kind of inequality and harm and a

systemic way throughout every part of

our social experience

so how does that new version of

patriarchy relate to what you're talking

about

um in terms of the the racism placing

white women for example higher on the

levels of power than black men I think

it's helpful here actually to go back to

that intellectual history because I

think the intervention that you know in

the 1960s mostly white middle-class

feminists who were saying this the

intervention that they made was to say

hey inequality in the world isn't a

biologically determined outcome of how

big our genitals are right this is

something that happens because we have

social meanings and ideas of Womanhood

that devalue women and that's why these

things keep systemically happening to

women people who are classified as women

which again the same person can be

classified as a woman in one context and

treated as such and not in another but

let's set that aside then what happens

is and then in the 1980s you get black

and Chicana and lesbian feminists who

come along and say those ideas of

Womanhood that you all have been

treating as homogeneous actually aren't

my experience of being a woman in this

world is very different than your white

middle class cisgender straight

experience of being a woman in the world

and gender is not irrelevant to that

it's because ideas of female Beauty are

white it's because the ideas of

motherhood and wife Hood as an

achievement of Womanhood immediately put

into question the Womanhood of lesbians

you know all of these aspects of

Womanhood create hierarchies between

women and that was the point that they

made and the real intervention I hope

that we can all make now you know 40

years later is to see that the same is

true of manhood there are very gross

inequalities and harms that exist

between men and understanding the ideas

of manhood are actually very integral

for explaining those hierarchies

okay we're going to take a break uh we

are speaking with Robin dembrov of

Yale's philosophy department and we're

talking about

whether or not patriarchy hurts

everybody not just females in our

society and we're going to continue

talking about gender politics in just a

moment you're listening to hear me out a

podcast from Slate I'm Celeste tedley

we'll be right back

[Music]

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Grill summer at Whole Foods Market from

June 14th through July 4th fire up the

grill with quality cuts at the best

prices we're talking animal welfare

certified meat check out the sales on

bone-in ribeye beef kebabs and New York

strip steak round out your barbecue with

plant-based proteins sliced cheese soft

buns and all the condiments plus sales

on fresh strawberries peaches and more

don't forget the pie either get grilling

at Whole Foods Market terms apply from

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embedded podcast only from NPR

and we're back this is hear me out a

podcast from Slate I'm Celeste Headley

and with us today is Robin dembroff from

Yale's philosophy Department talking

about battles over gender and who gets

hurt the most and whether anybody gets

hurt the most and as I understand it and

it's it's rare that I get this far into

the conversation Robin when I don't

and I don't entirely know if I have a

full grasp on on what um your argument

is because I I've tried a couple times

to

um articulate it and I I get corrected

rightly so so let me try again it sounds

as though you're saying that the

patriarchal society in which we live in

you're not disputing that we live in a

patriarchal society the patriarchal

society in which we live in hurts

everybody pretty equally is that

accurate I think maybe I should be clear

that I think that the notion of

patriarchy that people are going to come

into this show listening to it with is

not the view of patriarchy that I have

and that's very integral in the same way

that when we discovered that the you

know the sun doesn't rotate the Earth we

had to change our concept of earth right

to one where the Earth rotates the sun

in fact I think that the notion of

patriarchy as a system that benefits men

over women actually doesn't get the way

that just gender Works in our world

correctly it doesn't actually get at the

lived reality of how gender creates

systemic inequality and harms between

groups of people and when we actually

look at what is that system what is the

system that creates systemic gender

inequality and harm it is not a system

that puts men over women it's a system

that actually is designed to keep the

most elite and wealthy men in power over

everyone else

but it's it's really difficult for me to

get away from the fact that

um

everyone else I mean yes it is correct

that everyone else includes black and

brown people it includes

um members of the lgbtq plus Community

absolutely but there are specific

um prejudices and there are specific

discriminations that apply to those who

are seen in society as female I mean

there are specific things that relate to

somebody who is Black for example but if

you say let's look at the

African-American experience in the

United States there is a different

experience among black women than there

is for black men

um and so it's hard for me to to think

that we're we're talking about sort of

that we can set aside the gendered

experience of patriarchy because there

very much is a difference between the

female experience of patriarchy as

opposed to the male experience

absolutely I 100 agree with you that

there is a difference what I disagree

with is that that difference is one that

always benefits men over women I also

just think that that's not the right

it's not a men versus women process so

let me tell you a story actually this

might help during Reconstruction in

North Carolina white wealthy Elites at

the time had their power challenged by

the fact that now black men or citizens

and could vote yeah and so what they did

was they they intentionally created a

campaign around what they called the

best man and they said the best man is a

meritocratic ideal it's just like the

the goodest man right the real man yeah

and you have to be a best man in order

to deserve to hold public office and

then what they did was they described

the best man in this campaign as things

like economically successful charity

leaders in their religious Protestant

communities they created standards of

Merit of manhood that encoded race that

encoded class and this allowed them to

say that black men were not deserving of

political enfranchisement because they

were not the best men and what I'm

saying is that that is true at so many

different levels of our society when we

actually subject to scrutiny our ideas

about what men and women ought to be

like

and how they get treated as men and as

women we start to see that what we might

have thought were separate

discriminations like race or like class

those are actually built in to the way

that we treat each other as women and as

men

there's so much true in what you're

saying but I will say this in that

within say for example the

African-American Community there is so

much sexism there is so much

gender discrimination between black men

against black women and going back even

to the days just after the Civil War and

you know even as recently as as the the

Civil Rights protests that came from the

organizational skills and history of

black women's organizations and of

course all that we know in terms of

History where these black men who step

forward and in many cases refused to

allow women to take leadership positions

um there is so much gender

discrimination among that community that

it's very difficult to ever separate

that out is that what you're saying is

that

I definitely don't think we should

separate that out right the ways that we

do gender is patriarchal gender to each

other which includes the kinds of things

that you're talking about but also

includes right white women falsely

occlusing black men of rape in order to

get them lynched right these are all

part of the way that gender works and

punching down is one of the most Central

practices of masculinity right like

manhood in a patriarchal society is

about having power over women and having

power over other men and this kind of

punching down in order to solidify one's

own status as a man is something that

men are taught to do in a patriarchal

society what I don't think we should

conclude from that is that therefore

what this entire system creates when we

look not just at the relationships

between black men and black women or

white men and white women but we

actually step back and look at how

gender constructs the relationships

between all sorts of different groups we

start to see that when we narrow into

just these kind of very small

comparisons we're missing the bigger

picture about the actual structure of

inequality that this system creates

okay so we're going to take a break real

quick but I I would be remiss if I

didn't address what is going to be on

some of our listeners mind which is the

issue of testosterone which they're

going to say makes men more prone to

violence and more aggressive behavior

and therefore

um makes a difference in the way that

they encounter not just women but

everyone else in society what's your

response to that I would uh suggest that

people read the book called

testosterone an unauthorized

autobiography by Rebecca Jordan young

and Katrina carquestis which completely

debunks that it's a really good book I

recommend it also

um I I'm celestead we are listening to

hear me out and we are talking to Robin

dembrov from Yale's philosophy

Department we're talking about gender we

will be back to talk about this more in

just a moment stay with us

thank you

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we're back we're talking about the

patriarchy and with us is Robin dembrov

from Yale this is hear me out a podcast

from Slate and it's time to talk about

the elephant in the room and by elephant

I mean Joe Rogan and his buddies so I I

have to ask this Robin because as soon

as I was doing research for this episode

and I I put in there who suffers the

most

in a patriarchal society some of the

very first things that came up were blog

posts from members of the incel

community right these were

articles from Men Who feel they are

victimized by feminists

um that they are the biggest victims of

what's called erroneously called cancel

culture that cisgendered heterosexual

white men are uh being targeted that

they are being discriminated against and

so as soon as I put in that thing of

that men suffer from patriarchy that is

the first thing that came up what is

your response to this idea that talking

about men as suffering from this at All

Leads Credence to that kind of argument

I think we need to look at the

Historical patterns because what you're

describing is completely predictable and

it's happened at many points of History

before when we are in times of economic

crisis white men who are used to an

economic and so masculine advantage over

men of color start doubling down on

heteronormative ideas that Shore up

their idea of man who good they start

doubling down on ideas of men of color

and immigrants being hyper Predator

rapists and criminals that allow for

laws and policies that economically

discriminate against those groups

there's this vacuum of a need for an

idea of manhood in those moments because

our ideas of being a provider being a

breadwinner and being in economically

independent are so wrapped up in our

ideas of manhood that the kind of moment

that we're in right now where even white

working class men are struggling to make

a living right even then and when you

hit that moment that's when people like

Joe Rogan show up because they're here

to offer those men who are now feeling a

certain kind of fear of economic

emasculation new solutions to their

insecurity

so I I want to um relate to you

something that I was told by a family

member an older white family member who

said he doesn't get why there's this

effort to make it seem like his

personality has been forced on him in

other words he is a very much

emotionally moved by John Wayne movies

you know the the idea of honor and

Country and stoicism and courage in the

face of fear and you know

self-sacrificing that very traditional

idea of masculinity

he doesn't see that as being imposed

upon him

he sees that as who he is

and he feels as though this Progressive

idea of masculinity is trying to take

that away from him what's your response

to that do you feel like speaking

English was imposed on you me personally

yeah yes I mean yeah because you had to

speak it in order to survive yeah or

like to yeah that's what I would say

about masculinity it might not feel like

it's being imposed because you have to

learn it just to navigate the world like

we have to learn language but that

doesn't mean that we didn't learn it

from the world and that doesn't mean

that there was a really there is clearly

especially with masculinity in some ways

a really robust system of enforcing of

policing of punishing people who don't

do the things that are expected of them

or don't have the kinds of bodies that

they're expected to have in response to

that kind of system so what I would say

to someone like that is of course there

are positive traits that one can

associate with their own idea of manhood

and I encourage all men to instead of

just accepting the ideas of manta that

they have been given to think about what

kind of manhood is in my Integrity what

kind of man do I want to be what do I

want it to mean for me and not feel like

that needs to be a comparison with other

men or competition with other men or the

idea that they have now captured the

essence of true manhood and everyone

else has not right like there's but but

I think I'll say something else which is

that in addition to that I think we need

to be careful that the things that we

are putting into our ideas of manhood

and Womanhood even for ourselves are not

things that are causing us or leading us

to treat other people or even ourselves

like we are missing the mark like we are

not what we are supposed to be do you

think it's wrong for somebody to put on

a pair of jeans and and ride their horse

and go target shooting is that the wrong

thing for a guy to do

no my point I mean I've done all those

things

my point is more that uh there isn't a

right or wrong answer to the question of

what masculinity is manhood is a always

evolving always contested set of ideas

that differs across the people you talk

to or even a single person as they age

right like all right my ideas of manhood

when I was 10 are certainly different

than they are now and I imagine that's

true for many people and if they talk to

their fathers or their mothers or their

great-grandfathers their ideas would be

different so I think there are so many

different masculinities and I think what

that encourages us to do is to stop

asking this question of which one's the

right one instead start asking which

ones allow me to be actualized in the

world to be in the world in a way that

makes my relationship to myself and

other people more positive

okay so I hesitate to ask this of of

somebody who is in the philosophy

department but what does this mean in

the real world as I go about my regular

day I mean for example what does this

mean for chivalry do I still ask a guy

to open the door for me do I still ask

him to to uh pay for dinner if we're on

a date I think the main thing that I

want people to take away from my work is

a new level of awareness about what we

are doing to ourselves and to other

people in our social interactions and in

our interactions with ourselves and

instead of it just being automatic for

us all to each think about what is the

blueprint for manhood and for Womanhood

that I have internalized what are my

ideas about what makes someone a man or

a woman and what are my ideas about what

people should be like and how do I

impose those ideas on myself how do I

impose those ideas on other people and

in all of those interactions are there

ways that I can be wait for people to

consent or to ask me not not assume

things about what people are going to be

like not judge myself you know I think

just being aware of the fact that we are

constantly in this process of using our

ideas about men and women as a filter to

interact with living beings and the

consequences of that is an essential

step before we can get to bigger

questions of now what do we do about it

now that we're aware of it okay uh Robin

thank you so much for joining this this

has been a really thoughtful

conversation thanks for having me

okay so this was a challenging

conversation and and not just for some

of you for me too look I the

conversation about gender and sexuality

is changing all the time and it's tough

for me sometimes to fully keep up with

it and understand and and listen and

and wrap my head around communities and

identities that I don't belong to I have

to really listen to what people are

saying and I know that a lot of you have

a lot of thoughts about it and a lot of

opinions and some of those thoughts

happen while our guest is still talking

luckily you can let us know what you

think and you can email us it's

hearmeout slate.com lots of you are

emailing us and you've done so already

last week we had Coleman Hughes on the

show to make a case against reparations

for descendants of enslaved people we

got a lot of mail about this show but we

want to share just one comment before we

go this email came from a listener named

Dane Dane wrote this I want to say how

much I appreciate the general tenor of

this episode and the podcast more

generally I love this format with that

out of the way I think Celeste is very

obviously wrong on this issue why is a

black family who had the benefit of

living in the richest country in the

world for Generations more deserving of

support than a refugee family arriving

here penniless why is an upper class

descendant of slaves more deserving of a

leg up than a poor Filipino family as

Coleman says the actual victims of these

injustices should have been compensated

that is the people who were enslaved my

family arrived in the U.S 35 years ago

none of them participated in or profited

From Slavery redlining you name it so

why are we on the hook to pay for these

reparations

I get your point there are lots of

people who deserve a leg up and I

absolutely believe in a social safety

net on the other hand the people who

were enslaved were never compensated by

the US government as they should have

been and

African-Americans are at a major

disadvantage in education in income in

generational wealth it's just time to

make good on what the United States

should have done

150 years ago more than 150 years ago it

it's time to pay that debt so listen we

cover a lot of challenging and difficult

opinions on this podcast and we're sure

that you have your own takes we love

hearing them so please email us it's

hear me out at slate.com hear me out is

a podcast from slake the show is

produced by Maura Curry Ben Richmond is

the senior director of podcast

operations and Alicia Montgomery is VP

of slate audio I'm your host Celeste

Headley so until next time speak your

mind but keep it open

from an Iraq war cover-up to towns

ravaged by opioids to the roots of our

modern immigration crisis embedded

explores what's been sealed off and

undisclosed NPR's original investigative

podcast reveals why these stories and

the people behind them matter listen to

the embedded podcast only from NPR