Julian Barnes: The FULL INTERVIEW - BBC Newsnight

Summary

In this conversation, the speakers explore the complexities of modern debates around gender identity, the evolving understanding of gender fluidity, and the challenges of no-platforming controversial figures like Germaine Greer. They discuss the importance of challenging ideas while respecting differing views and the potential dangers of intellectual censorship. Additionally, the conversation touches on the responsibility of novelists in representing historical figures like Shostakovich, with an emphasis on truth-telling through fiction. The discussion highlights the fine balance between creative freedom and historical accuracy.

Takeaways

• 😀 The debate on gender identity has gained significant prominence in the early 21st century, reflecting a shift in how society views identity beyond physical characteristics.
• 😀 Some individuals, like J.K. Rowling, have been criticized for their views on gender, highlighting the tension between differing opinions on this topic.
• 😀 The concept of gender fluidity is gaining acceptance, with discussions on gender becoming more nuanced compared to previous generations.
• 😀 There's a concern that disagreement on one aspect of someone's beliefs can lead to the rejection of their entire worldview, narrowing the scope for meaningful debate.
• 😀 No-platforming is not a new phenomenon; even during the 1960s, Oxford saw debates where certain issues, such as South Africa's apartheid, were not open for discussion.
• 😀 The increasing fluidity of gender could eventually lead to significant changes in official documentation, like passports, where gender distinctions may become obsolete.
• 😀 Writers of fiction have the liberty to offer a definitive version of truth, as opposed to historians, who must present various possibilities and ambiguities.
• 😀 In the case of Shostakovich, many aspects of his life and work remained obscure until after his death, presenting challenges for historians and biographers.
• 😀 Novelists have the freedom to omit the 'ifs and buts' of historical events and present a clear, focused narrative that reflects their understanding of the truth.
• 😀 Responsibility as a novelist includes staying true to one’s vision of the truth, even when historical facts may not present a clear or complete picture.

Q & A

What is the main concern regarding no-platforming in the context of gender debates?

The main concern is that no-platforming isn't just about disagreeing with someone's views; it's about preventing any discussion or debate on the topic. This approach closes minds and limits the diversity of ideas, making it difficult to engage in constructive conversations.

How does the speaker feel about the evolution of gender identity over time?

The speaker acknowledges that gender is more fluid than it was in the past. They suggest that future generations may view the past’s understanding of gender as outdated, indicating a shift towards a more inclusive and flexible understanding of gender identity.

What does the speaker think about the future of gender categories, like those in passports?

The speaker speculates that in the future, gender may not even be listed on passports, hinting at a world where gender distinctions are no longer necessary or relevant. This reflects the growing movement toward gender fluidity and the potential for societal changes.

What was the significance of the 1960s Oxford debates mentioned in the transcript?

The 1960s at Oxford were a time of significant intellectual clash and debate, much like today. The speaker mentions that even back then, there were instances of no-platforming, particularly regarding issues like South Africa. The point is that no-platforming isn't a new phenomenon, but the reasons for it have shifted over time.

How does the speaker define truth in the context of writing about historical figures like Shostakovich?

The speaker views truth as something that can be expressed more definitively in fiction compared to historical accounts. As a novelist, they feel free to present their version of the truth, whereas historians often have to remain cautious and consider multiple possibilities.

What is the difference between a novelist's approach to truth and a historian's approach?

A novelist can present a definitive version of the truth, cutting through all the uncertainties, while a historian is bound by a need to express possibilities and uncertainties, often relying on the past conditional tense to speculate on what historical figures might have thought or done.

What role does intellectual freedom play in discussions about gender and other controversial issues?

Intellectual freedom is essential because it allows people to think critically and engage in debates without fear of censorship. The speaker emphasizes that while people should be allowed to express differing opinions, these views must not result in hate speech or harmful actions.

How does the speaker view the idea of 'no-platforming' in relation to current debates?

The speaker sees 'no-platforming' as an attempt to silence voices and limit intellectual engagement. They believe that even if people disagree with someone’s views, it is important to challenge and discuss ideas openly, as that is how progress is made in society.

What does the speaker suggest about the future of societal understanding of gender?

The speaker suggests that in the future, society may come to view current concepts of gender as outdated. They speculate that future generations might look back and find it strange that gender was once considered a fixed binary, signaling an evolution in societal thinking.

Why does the speaker believe it is important to challenge ideas rather than dismiss them?

The speaker believes that challenging ideas is essential for intellectual growth and societal progress. They argue that simply dismissing opposing viewpoints leads to the closing of minds, preventing open dialogue and the exploration of new perspectives.