Does SORENESS = MUSCLE GROWTH? (ft. Dr. Mike Israetel)

Summary

In this episode of Strawber Science, Dr. Mike Isto discusses the role of muscle soreness in training for hypertrophy. He emphasizes that while soreness is not a primary indicator of muscle growth, it can be a useful tool at the extremes, suggesting under or overtraining. The conversation delves into the complexities of muscle soreness, its correlation with muscle damage and recovery, and the importance of using soreness as one of many variables to inform training adjustments. The experts also explore the physiological mechanisms behind soreness and its potential as a proxy for muscle stimulation.

Takeaways

• 💪 Soreness in training is a complex topic and should not be solely relied upon to guide gym practices like adding or removing sets.
• 📈 The primary focus should be on increasing strength over time; if this is happening, soreness becomes secondary.
• 🚫 Lack of soreness might indicate underdosing, especially if there's no progress in muscle growth or strength.
• ⏰ Consistent overlapping soreness could suggest under-recovery, which might hinder optimal performance in the gym.
• 🤔 The physiological mechanisms behind soreness are not well understood and could involve immune system responses.
• 🔄 Soreness is more aligned with the muscle remodeling process rather than just muscle damage.
• 🏋️‍♂️ For beginners, the ability to perceive soreness accurately is often limited and can improve with experience.
• 🔄 Soreness can be influenced by various factors such as the introduction of new exercises, rep ranges, and training volume.
• 🤓 Advanced trainees might use soreness as one of several decision-making variables when adjusting their training programs.
• 🧊 The use of anti-inflammatory drugs and cold water can reduce soreness, suggesting a link between inflammation and the perception of soreness.
• 💊 While anti-inflammatory drugs reduce inflammation, they also reduce soreness, indicating a possible connection between the two.

Q & A

What is the primary focus when using soreness as a guide in training for hypertrophy?

The primary focus should be on whether you are getting stronger for reps over time. Soreness becomes secondary to this, and it is more important to monitor progress in strength gains rather than just the presence of soreness.

Why might someone not experience soreness during their training?

A lack of soreness could indicate underdosing, where the training stimulus is not sufficient to cause muscle damage and the associated soreness. It could also mean that the individual has an exceptionally easy recovery, but if progress is not being made, it might be time to increase the training stimulus.

What could be a sign of overtraining in terms of soreness?

Consistent overlapping soreness, where the soreness from one session lasts into the next training session, could be a sign of overtraining and under-recovery, indicating that the body is not fully recovering between workouts.

How might an absence of soreness affect muscle growth?

If an individual is not experiencing any soreness and is not seeing progress in muscle growth or strength, it might suggest that the training volume or intensity is insufficient to stimulate muscle hypertrophy.

What is the relationship between soreness and the introduction of new exercises?

Soreness is often more pronounced when new exercises are introduced, as the body is not accustomed to the specific movements. This novelty effect can be beneficial for hypertrophy as it provides a new stimulus for muscle growth.

How does the perception of soreness differ between beginners and advanced athletes?

Beginners may not be able to differentiate between joint soreness and muscle belly soreness, whereas advanced athletes may have a better understanding of their bodies and can more accurately perceive and interpret soreness signals.

What could be some reasons for the discrepancy between muscle damage and perceived soreness?

The physiological mechanisms of soreness are not well understood, and various factors can contribute to the perception of soreness, including immune cell infiltration, muscle damage, and the introduction of new exercises or training techniques.

How might anti-inflammatory drugs affect the perception of soreness?

Anti-inflammatory drugs can reduce inflammation at a physiological level, which may also lead to a reduction in the perception of soreness, suggesting a link between inflammation and the sensation of soreness.

What is the potential risk of using soreness as a guide for individualizing training?

Using soreness as a guide without a full understanding of its physiological basis could potentially lead to suboptimal training adjustments, such as reducing volume too much, which might hinder muscle growth.

How can soreness be used effectively in a hypertrophy program?

Soreness can be used effectively at the extremes, as a sign of potential underdosing or overtraining, and as one of many decision variables when adjusting training volume or intensity. It should not be the sole determinant but considered alongside other factors like strength gains and recovery.

What is the role of empirical evidence in shaping training guidelines compared to individual perceptions like soreness?

Empirical evidence provides a tested and measured foundation for training guidelines, while individual perceptions like soreness can offer additional insights. However, it's important to base training adjustments primarily on empirical evidence and use perceptions as supplementary information.

Outlines

00:00

🏋️‍♂️ Training and Soreness in Hypertrophy

Dr. Mike Isto discusses the role of soreness in training, emphasizing that the primary focus should be on increasing strength over time. Soreness is secondary and can be an indicator of underdosing or overdosing. He explains that if one is not getting stronger, then soreness might suggest a need to adjust training volume or intensity. Conversely, excessive soreness could indicate overtraining and a need to reduce stimulus. The conversation also touches on the importance of mind-muscle connection and the potential for individual variability in experiencing soreness.

05:01

🤔 The Complexity of Soreness Perception

The dialogue delves into the uncertainty surrounding the physiological mechanisms of soreness, acknowledging that it's not well understood. Soreness is discussed as a secondary feature of training stimulus and may involve immune system responses. It's suggested that soreness correlates with factors like the introduction of new exercises, proximity to failure, and increased volume, all of which are known to contribute to hypertrophy. However, the correlation between soreness and muscle damage is weak, and the perception of soreness can be influenced by various factors, including assessment methods and individual differences.

10:01

🔍 The Role of Soreness in Recovery and Training Adjustments

The speakers debate the utility of soreness as a metric for recovery and training adjustments. While one argues that performance in the gym should be the primary indicator of recovery, the other suggests that soreness, being potentially linked to the muscle remodeling process, might be beneficial in guiding training volume. They discuss the possibility of using soreness to individualize training but acknowledge the risk of moving away from empirically supported training volumes based on incomplete understanding of soreness.

15:02

💪 Balancing Soreness with Training Intensity

The conversation explores the idea of using soreness to balance training intensity, with the understanding that excessive soreness might hinder performance. They consider the possibility that soreness could be a sign of inadequate recovery and suggest that reducing training volume might be beneficial in such cases. The speakers also discuss the potential benefits of allowing individuals to self-regulate their training volume based on their soreness response, despite the lack of concrete evidence supporting this approach.

20:03

🤕 Unusual Soreness as a Potential Health Concern

The discussion concludes with a case example of an individual experiencing unusually intense and prolonged soreness, prompting a recommendation to seek medical advice. The speakers agree that while soreness can be a useful training variable to some extent, it should not replace empirical evidence when making training decisions. They emphasize the importance of being cautious with subjective measures of training response and the need for further research to better understand the relationship between soreness, muscle damage, and growth.

Keywords

💡Perception of Soreness

Perception of soreness refers to the subjective experience of muscle discomfort or pain following exercise, often associated with muscle damage and repair processes. In the video, it is discussed as a potential indicator for gauging training intensity and volume, with the suggestion that a lack of soreness might indicate underdosing, while excessive soreness could imply overreaching or inadequate recovery.

💡Hypertrophy

Hypertrophy is the increase in muscle fiber size, which is a primary goal for many individuals engaging in resistance training. The video emphasizes that the core focus should be on strength gains over time, with soreness being a secondary consideration. Soreness is discussed as potentially relevant in the context of hypertrophy, especially when considering the adequacy of training stimulus.

💡Mind-Muscle Connection

Mind-muscle connection is the concept of mentally focusing on the muscle being trained to enhance the neural activation of that muscle. The script mentions this concept in the context of tricep training, suggesting that if one cannot feel the tricep muscles working and is not experiencing soreness, there may be an issue with the training stimulus or technique.

💡Underdosing

Underdosing refers to not providing enough training stimulus for the body to adapt and grow. In the video, it is suggested that if an individual is not experiencing soreness and is not seeing progress, they may be underdosing their training, and increasing the stimulus might be beneficial.

💡Recovery

Recovery is the process the body undergoes to repair and adapt from training stress. The script discusses the importance of recovery in relation to soreness, suggesting that overlapping soreness from one training session to the next could indicate under-recovery, which may hinder performance and growth.

💡Training Volume

Training volume is the total amount of work done in a training session, often quantified by the number of sets and repetitions. The video discusses how increasing or decreasing training volume can influence soreness levels and how this might be used as a gauge for adjusting training intensity.

💡Neurological Adaptations

Neurological adaptations refer to the changes in the nervous system that improve the efficiency of muscle activation and movement patterns. The script mentions that very beginner individuals can make strength gains even when sore due to these adaptations, indicating that soreness is not the sole determinant of training effectiveness.

💡Muscle Damage

Muscle damage is the structural breakdown of muscle fibers that occurs as a result of intense physical activity. The video script explores the relationship between muscle damage and soreness, suggesting that while they are related, the exact mechanisms are not fully understood and that soreness may be more indicative of the body's repair process rather than the damage itself.

💡Immune Infiltration

Immune infiltration is the process by which immune cells enter an area of muscle tissue in response to damage or stress. The script suggests that soreness might be related to immune cells' activity in muscle tissue, contributing to the sensation of soreness as part of the repair and remodeling process.

💡Eccentric Control

Eccentric control refers to the deliberate and controlled lengthening of a muscle during the lowering phase of an exercise. The video mentions that performing exercises with more eccentric control, especially at long muscle lengths, can lead to greater soreness and is associated with enhanced hypertrophic responses.

💡Newbie Gains

Newbie gains refer to the rapid muscle growth and strength increases that beginners often experience when they first start resistance training. The script discusses how the novelty of exercises contributes to these gains and how soreness might be a proxy for the degree of stimulus introduced, which is particularly impactful for beginners.

Highlights

The importance of using soreness as a guide in training for hypertrophy is discussed.

Soreness is secondary to getting stronger over time in terms of training effectiveness.

Lack of soreness might indicate underdosing or insufficient training stimulus.

Consistent overlapping soreness could suggest under-recovery and hinder strength gains.

The potential benefits of using intensification techniques like length and partials for increased soreness and hypertrophy.

The role of training volume in causing soreness and its correlation with hypertrophy.

The uncertainty in the physiological mechanisms behind soreness and its correlation with muscle growth.

Soreness as a potential indicator of the remodeling process post-exercise rather than direct muscle damage.

The weak correlation between perceived soreness and muscle damage markers.

The impact of various factors like exercise novelty, rep range, and training volume on soreness.

The idea that soreness might be a proxy for the degree of training stimulus.

The use of soreness as a decision-making variable in adjusting training volume.

The potential risks of using soreness as a training guide without a full understanding of its implications.

The suggestion that individual responses to soreness could help optimize training beyond average recommendations.

The importance of empirical evidence as a foundation for training practices, with soreness as an additional variable.

The discussion on the use of anti-inflammatory drugs and their effect on reducing soreness and potentially muscle remodeling.

The practical approach to using soreness in conjunction with empirical data for training adjustments.

The acknowledgment of the limitations in understanding soreness and its role in muscle adaptation.

Transcripts

welcome back to strawber science Dr mil

wolf with you today with an expert Dr

Mike isto talking about perception of

soreness in training as a means to guide

whatever you're doing in the gym like

adding sets removing sets doing

different exercises essentially how

would you use soreness would you use it

with regards to your lifting practice

that's a great question I assume it's in

the context of hypertrophy correct cool

so I've explained this a few times

sometimes at length and a lot of times

when I explain it folks will understand

what I'm getting at and sometimes I

think something's kind of Lost in

Translation because I kind of have like

a it's kind of a two it's a little bit

more complicated than just soreness

means this soreness doesn't mean that

and so I'll try to explain it in such a

way that it's because about as simple as

I can explain it but that still conveys

roughly what I'm trying to get at so

fundamentally what really matters is are

you getting stronger for reps over time

and if that's occurring the sess is

going to be always and everywhere very

much secondary to that so if you're

getting stronger over time I'm not going

to like kick dicks out of your mouth and

tell you like you're doing soreness

wrong or some [ __ ] like that soreness

becomes much more of a thing when it it

has two cases one is if you're not

getting sore at all and and other

indicators in your program seem to

suggest

underdosing uh or you just have like the

easiest recovery in the world and you're

not progressing either at all or at a

pace you have come to expect or for some

good reason expect to progress at so if

you're not getting sore ever let's say a

quick example you're training your

triceps and they're not big and they are

not growing your rep strength over time

is a increasing and you have trouble

with uh kind of generating a mind muscle

connection I think there's triceps back

there I'm not so sure and you're also

not getting sore I would say that

whatever amount of tricep training

you're doing and by amount I mean total

stimulus which could be proximity to

failure the degree of um effectiveness

of your Technique how good your

Technique is exercise selection and the

biggest one is training volume something

there is probably under stimulating and

if you also don't get sore I can tell

you yeah it's probably a decent idea to

try to crank up the

stimulus that brings in the secondary

discussion of soreness if let's say you

train 2 days a week also triceps Monday

Thursday just to keep the [ __ ] real

simple and you have delayed onset soret

that lasts from Monday until Wednesday

evening or even Thursday morning and

then you have a delay onset sorus that

lasts from from Friday morning after the

Thursday session all the way to Sunday

evening

consistently whatever problems you have

with your Gams I would proposition that

an underdosing of stimulus is highly

unlikely to be one of them because if

you cranked up the stimulus you would

start to get overlapping soreness and we

know that at least in some methods of

analysis consistent overlapping soreness

means you're probably under recovering

and it means that you're not your strong

longest at the time of lifting and yes

some studies on very beginner people

with a neurological adaptations on Pace

everything show that even if you're sore

you can still make strength gains but

I'll tell you this if you have to do

your best in the gym for any one session

do you want to be sore coming into that

session or not sore I surmise that the

answer is not sore and so if someone

says look man my triceps aren't growing

I go do you get sore and they go dude

I've never been sore I'm like oo outside

of the other methods of analysis I would

say it's incrementally beneficial for

you to consider that you're underdosing

somehow and doing more may be part of

the answer on the other hand if you tell

me like dude my triceps aren't growing

and do you get sore like unsore all the

[ __ ] time my next guess is probably

doing less might be better than doing

more in that context especially if it's

regular not just like your first week or

something like that so that's kind of

high approached soreness but it can be

instructive at its extremes especially

to put it another way really quick

really simple if you're struggling to

grow something and you just never have

felt Doms in it you might want to

experiment with some intensification for

example length and partials consistently

make almost everyone that tries them

more sore than usual not just from

novelty regularly for weeks and end and

they seem to kind of [ __ ] work

cranking up volume will make you more

sore and so on and so on on the other

hand if you're just getting sore like

[ __ ] crazy you're probably more

limited by recovery and training harder

is highly unlikely to be a part of the

answer one final question on sorus

before I give my sort of response to

that one thing I think we need to

clarify is what does sorus actually mean

to you I can answer this in a couple of

ways one is there is a high degree of

uncertainty about what the physiological

mechanisms of sorus are and we've known

that for a long time I know of at least

one old ultr structural tissue analysis

paper that showed with analysis of

things like zline streaming and things

that sonus was much more aligned with a

a very robust hypertrophic response than

it was with a response of pure muscle

damage we also know that SOS arisis is a

secondary feature not a primary feature

of stimulus we know it probably has

something to do with immune infiltration

also and I'm very confident about this

when you take more drugs you get more

sleep and you eat more food you get more

sore not less and if it was just linear

damage you would be like but all these

things help the damage how the hell is

sorus thing now so to me what sorus

actually is at a deep analytical level

is unclear but I do know that sorus also

correlates with the following things the

introduction of a new exercise or new

rep range and we we know that novelty is

highly correlated to gains because

that's how newb gains work if newb gains

aren't magic God doesn't know what time

it is in your life for training the

novelty effect is the newb gains effect

and is profoundly helpful for

hypertrophy we know that you get more

sore if you uh get closer to failure we

also know that causes hypertrophy we

know that you get more sore if you do

more volume that cause hypertrophy we

know if you do uh more Ecentric control

at long muscle lengths that causes more

s we also know robustly that causes more

hypertrophy you start to line up all the

variables here's another thing in my

coaching of very many athletes

especially uh athlete athletes

volleyball players soccer players the

people that grow muscle the fastest

visually they get the strongest that are

the more fast fiber oriented they get

robustly more sore than everyone else

endurance athletes [ __ ] 10 sets of

everything they just don't get sore and

you're like all right well soreness has

nothing to do with growth no worries and

then they don't [ __ ] grow too many

correlations for me to just be like this

has nothing to do with anything so I

suspect that us is a proxy not the proxy

and there are other things going on that

can even conflate these variables a

proxy for the degree of stimulus

introduced does that mean stimulus

equals growth no but stimulus may cause

growth I think it makes a lot of sense

and by in large I agree that soreness is

typically correlated to some degree with

stimulus for hypertrophy I guess the one

thing that strikes me in all this like

we agree on most things when it comes to

stimulus when it comes to underdosing

training volume or intensity or what

have you for I purch y the one thing I

struggle with from the research side of

things is using soreness potentially as

aox fatigue the reason for that is as

you mentioned soreness is not a super

well understood topic soreness is kind

of it could be caused by a variety of

factors and a recent review paper I

think identified about eight factors

eight separate factors that could be

responsible for the soreness perception

another way of saying we just don't know

exactly like there's just a lot of

uncertainty there right and that was 3

years ago line up of eight people to do

a crime and you're like it could be all

eight like wow excellent see later ited

them and you're like all right could be

that gu could be that gu yeah um so we

really don't understand soreness and how

it relates even to muscle damage sure

and in fact there's a study by msaka and

colleagues from 2005 I believe where

they essentially had participants

performing very damaging protocol in the

biceps with eent contractions

essentially creating a bunch of muscle

damage and then measuring markers of

muscle damage like creating chies like

recovery of performance recover

performance from before the damaging

bout to after the damaging bout say 2

hours later 24 hours later Etc that is

probably one of if not the best moru of

recovery right essentially the degree of

muscle damage induced didn't really

correlate very well with how people

perceive their soreness did it correlate

somewhat with it was it depended on

position so essentially soreness was

assessed in three different positions

like with your arm extended flexed and

palpated and there was a few things one

no matter the position the correlation

between perceived soreness and any

marker of muscle damage whether it was

creating chinise recovery of performance

in a very unskilled test AK isometric

test the correlation was always about

0.3 or less so quite a weak correlation

if there was one and more importantly

the correlation of soreness in different

positions was also quite low between

about 0.3 and 0.6 mhm so how you assess

soreness can also heavily impact how

sore you feel and so if all you're going

by in the gym is like ah feeling pretty

sore but then some days you're you're

feeling it while you're stretching some

days you're feeling it while you're

moving up some days you're feeling it

while you're actually do movement all of

those are different assessments of

soreness and they may not correlate

successfully for sure I I'm uninterested

in what beginners think about how sore

they are they just aren't interested in

any perceptual factors beginners half

short of like I think something broke do

you think ability to perceive soreness

is something that advanc people get

better at like substantially better yeah

absolutely because I a lot of beginners

can't even differentiate joint soreness

and muscle belly soreness sure uh and so

you really don't know what the [ __ ]

you're at we don't know anything about

this from research side could be true

could be not true it's true yeah I I'm

open to that possibility um but I just

think specifically as far as using it as

a metric of recovery I think performance

in the gym should be by far the primary

one and at this stage I don't think we

have anecdotally we may have some

evidence like hey when I feel sared

sometimes I don't perform well what have

you but from that study specifically

there was actually a positive

correlation between sorness and

performance so people were a bit more

sore if anything perform a little bit

better and that's in line with some

research suggesting that soreness is

more indicative of the remodeling

process than it is of damage so damage

occurs instantly when you exercise mhm

soreness seems to be more so delayed

indicative or indicating that it is more

more in alignment with the remodeling

process from damage than it is actual

muscle damage and disruption disruption

to the muscle I've been saying that for

about 20 years uh yay I got something

right but doesn't that also highly

implicate soreness and a probability of

being associated with

growth isn't sorus like you're still

growing and recovering and remodeling if

sorus is implicated as a symptom of

remodeling why are you in the gym

training if you're still remodeling is

an interesting question to ask now there

could be like well look like overlapping

remodeling curves are totally fine I'm

open to that idea but uh maybe if you

waited a little bit and then hit it

again when you were healed maybe it

would be all good to go I'm not sure

about that but I think especially the

extremes it starts to make sense if

you're so sore that you're clearly not

going to lift as much as usual maybe

it's time to back the [ __ ] up a little

bit and wait a little bit if you're a

little bit sore I just don't think it's

a big deal either way yeah I I see that

the one thing I'll come back to and now

we talk about the research a little bit

is

exponentially when I am sore that

doesn't consistently predict High

perform if I'm cripplingly sore like for

example I once did the uh a session from

the NF study the 26 set session where

they were doing 52 sets of quads a week

I did that essentially unprepared and my

God I hit uh un five mobile levels of

soreness you peak in soreness so 3 Days

Later instantly oh you got it felt like

it was instant like it was like I was

sore for 6 seven days maybe six seven

days when was the worst soreness what

day honestly it was it was if I had to

rate it and that's the issue with rating

obviously may not be consistent or

reliable happy but if I had to rate it

for the th like 3 days it was 10 out 10

yeah amazing from like two hours maybe

an hour even onwards I remember not

really being able to walk properly for a

few hours yeah it was it was incredible

but anyways outside of extreme

circumstances I haven't found that a

perception of soreness is really

indicative of how performing gy and to

me because Rec well because performance

in the gym is the best proxy for

Recovery because it essentially

incorporates a lot of stuff right like

it incorporates already psychologically

ready how damage your muscles

potentially all of that stuff like more

Central factors and more per

factors if sess doesn't performance I'm

inclined to go consistently in sort of

day-to-day normal contexts I'm inclined

to say it may not be the best predictor

of should I be training how much oh is

definitely not the best predictor of

that but I would also say that if sess

seems to be more and more linked in

literature as part of the remodeling

process for sport athletes like if

you're sore shut up go on the soccer

field nobody gives a [ __ ] you're not

going to break into pieces you'll

perform just fine unless you're crippled

but if your goal is hypertrophy and

remodeling is clearly still robustly

occurring as evidenced by sorus why not

just take more time off and or next week

when when you do the session again do

four sets instead of six sure so that

you can have an area under the curve of

remodeling that ends relatively close to

your next session the issue I take with

using soreness essentially as a means to

individualize training is that we don't

know a ton about sorness and we don't

even have super clear evidence on

exactly whether or not remodeling is the

growth of SP like there's there's going

to be differences right so there's a

recovery model and response and a tissue

aggregation exactly like sh studies

right they could be very linked Asama

study suggest or they could be pretty

different in some context or they could

Ur over different timelines variet

things it's really not a well understood

area of resour yeah and so my contention

or my issue with this stuff is are we

using soreness and pump and other

experiential variables as a means to

Auto regulate or individualize training

but potentially moving things in a

Direction

that isn't optimal right cuz if we have

now I think what 20 studies on volume

we're close to it and sure they work in

averages right so they can only really

inform us well about our starting place

but still because they work in averages

the average responder in the study will

be somewhat similar to the average

responder in the real world but so if

we're using these variables to say all

right let's move your volume for chest

from what we think is going to be quite

effective based on literature say 15 to

25 sets a week for your chest and you're

getting sore and we use soreness as like

a very strong pred predictive factor of

stimulus or recovery and we're like look

you're still sore 3 days

later we need to reduce volume or if

it's overlapping soreness if that t

takes us from 15 to 25 sets which is

what we've empirically derived to be a

solid place for most people and we take

that down to say eight sets from

empirical versus rational perspective I

tend to identify more with the empirical

side of things because in these studies

we actually measuring growth from

manipulating the variable of interest M

so it's the most direct research there

is so if you're using an area of

research or a variable that we don't

understand fully yet and we're doing at

the expense of this variable we've

tested empirically quite a few times I

fear we might be actually reducing

muscle growth MH and that's where the

real risk of using soreness or the pump

or these variables that aren't fully

understood yet really arises to me yeah

does that make sense tot what's your

General fallowing on my general thought

is you could have a situation which the

averages make sense but uh in the

averages could be optimized even more if

you let individuals guide themselves

through soreness which we don't have any

data to prove against so the average

growth can be good even when some people

get overlapping soreness but if you

designed a study which you Auto

regulated via soreness responses we

could find out later that they every

everyone gets better growth the people

that can recover faster get more volume

we already know people who are

recovering more easily to increase their

volume they do better it's if people

have trouble recovering and you know the

soreness versus recovery thing is a bit

tentative then maybe they can do less

and benefit we already know that the

standard deviation of optimal volume

within any given study is quite large

it's not like everyone is somewhere

between 17 and 14 sets do very very

large Deltas on that so maybe soreness

can help guide us another thing is at

the beginning of a program this

compelling reasoning that you just gave

as you work through a program you're uh

you just don't get soore nearly as

easily and then your ability to float

into the muscle uh hypertrophy ranges

that are really really uh overall quite

optimal is is pretty much unabated I

mean you could just keep adding sets for

a while and everything's all good so I

use sorus in two ways I use it at the

extremes and I use it as one of the

decisional variables on top of all of

the others so like with the RP

hypertophy app for example if you tell

it you have psychotic go go right now

right now I need money I don't see money

um if it uh if you tell it like I'm get

super [ __ ] sore still from last week

it'll reduce your volume and the next

time that you go around but you can

always just hit the plus sign at add a

set we never disable that function at

the end of the day if you're like [ __ ]

it I'm sore but whatever I don't give a

[ __ ] we're like hey maybe maybe that

works so uh really it's just a matter of

uh after the first few days or weeks of

a program you you may be the amount of

volume it may take to get you really

sore probably starts to line up with the

volume recommendations that we see

generally in the literature now at first

in week one Soros comes really easily

but I would also contend based on an

interview I did a little while ago with

pack that easing into a program so that

you never get the psychotic sorus also

has its advantages as well so that's

kind of how I see it cool I think we

agree uh by and large I think what It

ultimately comes down to is one maybe

differences in minimizing type one error

rate versus getting that potential

benefit which as a coach it makes sense

right even if something doesn't have all

of the evidence behind it yet but

there's a potential benefit like

LinkedIn partials for example I tend to

think it may be what incorporating right

totally as a practitioner for sure but

from an evidence-based perspective it

may be a little bit different totally

and it's totally valid as a way to

operate within the j% what I like to do

is I like to take the empirical evidence

as the foundation for things that are

very likely correct and very likely

Incorrect and then I take more heris

variables like sonus and pump on a layer

them on top of that and if they can give

me incremental hypothetical margin of

more intelligent decision- making I'll

use them but I won't use them if they

violate the underpinning variables uh so

but most times that doesn't happen with

people sometimes it does and then and

then a lot of times you have to seek a

little further clarification like tell

you this like uh I I'm familiar with one

gentleman I consulted with recently who

has been getting sore from one or two

sets for like four or 5 days at a time

and it's been getting more intense even

though he's been training for months and

months I legitimately told him to go see

a doctor because like that is a very

unusual have you ever seen that in

practice like you train up and then

you're getting more sore yeah and and

the volume it takes to get you sore is

is I've never seen that mind turn exact

that's the thing right like we don't

fully understand what factors contribute

to differences in how people perceive

soreness for sure it's a perception of

soreness versus actual muscle damage and

the uh the jump from one to the other

can be totally totally and and and uh I

will say this I I have never tied my

card to the horse that says soreness

equals muscle damage I always thought

that sorus was more indicative of

secondary immune infiltration caused

muscle damage but that's the same kind

of muscle damage as primary muscle

damage and it's less muscle damage but

more like the immune system cells

actually unzipping the various parts of

the muscle cell and starting to fix the

[ __ ] that's what it seems like is

occurring here's another piece of

compelling um secondary tier evidence

anti-inflammatory drugs cannot possibly

interfere with with muscle damage the

[ __ ] Superman drug you can't break your

muscles they don't do that but if you

take high doses of n ineds pre during

and post you get a huge decline in delay

on set muscle soreness and also a

decline in hyper same with cold water in

it cold water you know down like blood

flow and all totally you know but but

once about eight out of 10 variables

line up to soreness and growth point in

the same general direction I got to

think like

man to it's soreness but also muscle

down damage so in this case nids

literally reduce inflammation on the

physiological level correct but they

also happen to reduce soreness right yes

I agree that that's some evidence in

favor of the two going hand in hand but

it's important to acknowledge whenever

we discuss them obviously we're giving

advice to people ultimately we have to

be somewhat practical sure but I think

just on a framework level we always have

to be like okay let's uh this thing was

should to a old these are all educated

guesses and they're all highly imperfect

for sure yeah hey man it was beautiful I

love it if you like the video like the

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peace

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