How do American universities make their money? | Counting the Cost

Summary

This week's 'Counting the Cost' on Al Jazeera examines various pressing economic and political issues. The show begins with a spotlight on university funding in the US, where protests are demanding divestment from Israel due to its conflict with Gaza. The program explores the potential financial and moral impacts of such divestment, referencing past successful campaigns against apartheid South Africa and fossil fuels. The discussion also touches on the challenges universities face in divesting from specific entities. Next, the show shifts to the economic ramifications of the ongoing war in Ukraine, with a focus on the US and its allies' efforts to hold Russia accountable for its invasion. This includes a legislative move that could lead to Russia paying reparations, which has raised concerns about potential retaliation and legal challenges. The program also highlights the global response to the conflict, with a particular emphasis on the role of China and India in the current economic landscape. The potential for Russia to leverage its relationships with these nations is a key point of discussion. The episode then delves into the tech industry, with a feature on the potential US ban of TikTok over national security concerns. The potential legal and economic fallout of such a ban is explored, including the impact on small businesses that rely on the platform for marketing. Finally, the show addresses the broader implications of these issues for international relations, particularly between the US and China. It raises questions about the future of global trade and the potential for retaliatory measures if tensions continue to escalate.

Takeaways

• 📚 **University Divestment Movement**: Protests across US universities demand divestment from companies complicit in Israel's war on Gaza, highlighting a student-led movement for ethical investment.
• 🏛️ **Institutional Response**: Universities like Columbia and USC face calls to divest, with varied institutional responses ranging from dialogue to arrests, reflecting the complexity of the issue.
• 💵 **Financial Mechanisms**: Universities rely on endowment funds, investing in diverse assets; students are pushing for transparency and ethical reallocation of investments.
• 🌎 **Global Divestment History**: There's a precedent for successful divestment, as seen with South Africa's apartheid, although the Israel-Palestine situation presents unique challenges.
• 🤝 **International Sanctions**: The call for boycotts and sanctions on Israel is echoed globally, with activists targeting multinational corporations supporting Israel, impacting their sales and stock values.
• 🏗️ **Rebuilding Ukraine**: The US and allies seek to hold Russia financially accountable for the invasion of Ukraine, with proposals to use frozen Russian assets for reconstruction.
• 🚨 **Russian Retaliation Threat**: Moscow warns of retaliatory measures if its state assets are confiscated, highlighting the delicate balance of international financial power.
• 🛡️ **Legal and Moral Stands**: Divestment efforts are as much about moral stances as financial impact, aiming to influence public opinion and potentially foreign policy.
• 🚫 **TikTok Ban Threat**: US legislation targets TikTok over data privacy and security concerns, with the potential for a nationwide ban if ByteDance doesn't divest.
• 🛒 **Economic Impact on Businesses**: A ban on TikTok could affect millions of American businesses that utilize the platform for marketing, as well as the app's significant job support.
• 🌐 **Global Trade Dynamics**: The conflict's impact on global trade is significant, with shifts in investment and export focus, particularly towards China and India.

Q & A

What is the primary demand of the protesters at major American colleges regarding their universities' investments?

The protesters demand that their universities disclose and divest from investments in companies they believe are complicit in genocide, particularly those linked with Israel's war on Gaza.

What is the total endowment fund of Columbia University, and what are the protesters' demands concerning this fund?

Columbia University has an endowment fund of nearly $14 billion. Protesters want the university to divest from companies linked with Israel or those profiting from its war on Gaza.

How have some universities responded to student protests regarding divestment from Israel?

Some universities have refused to divest, while others have offered to make investments in health and education in Gaza. There have also been instances of arrests and expulsions, as well as more conciliatory approaches, such as agreeing to speak with protesters.

What is the historical context of student activism targeting university endowments?

In the 1980s, student activists successfully persuaded universities to divest from apartheid South Africa. More recently, universities have divested from fossil fuels and private prisons.

What is the potential financial impact on universities if they choose to divest from Israel?

While the financial impact may be minimal, the moral and ethical ramifications are significant. Divestiture campaigns often become debates about moral and ethical issues, potentially influencing public opinion and American support for Israel's military activities.

What is the economic challenge faced by the boycott movement in the occupied West Bank?

Israel's control over the economy, including water, fuel, electricity, and restrictions on imports and exports, makes it difficult for Palestinians to fully participate in a boycott. However, they aim to inflict economic losses on Israel and support local businesses.

What is the estimated financial need to rebuild Ukraine, and who is expected to bear the cost?

The World Bank estimates that $411 billion is needed to rebuild Ukraine. The US and its allies want Moscow to pay for its invasion, and Congress has passed a bill that could allow Kiev to use some of Russia's frozen assets.

What is the potential legal repercussion for the US and its allies if they seize Russia's assets?

Seizing Russia's assets could set a dangerous precedent, potentially leading to new lawsuits against the US and its allies for war reparations. Russia has threatened to retaliate, and there are concerns about the legality of such actions under international law.

What are the concerns surrounding TikTok's operations in the US, and what actions have been taken by the US government?

Concerns include the potential for the Chinese government to access sensitive user data and the possibility of the app being used for misinformation and election interference. President Joe Biden signed a bill that could lead to a nationwide ban on TikTok if its Chinese owner, ByteDance, does not divest from the app.

What are the potential consequences for American businesses and jobs if TikTok is banned in the US?

TikTok helps generate billions of dollars for over 7 million American businesses and supports more than 224,000 jobs. A ban could disrupt these economic contributions and require businesses to find alternative marketing platforms.

What are the broader implications of a potential TikTok ban on US-China relations?

A ban could further strain US-China relations and may prompt retaliatory measures from China. It also raises questions about the precedent it sets for international technology regulation and data privacy concerns.

Outlines

00:00

📚 University Divestment and Protests Against Israel

The first paragraph discusses the issue of university funding and divestment, particularly in the United States. It highlights protests demanding educational institutions divest from Israel due to its conflict with Gaza. The narrative outlines the scope of the protests, the common demand for transparency in university investments, and the call for divestment from companies allegedly involved in human rights abuses. It also touches on the potential impact of such divestments on university finances and the broader economic implications.

05:02

💼 University Investments and Divestment Challenges

The second paragraph delves into the complexities of university investments, the due diligence process, and the potential challenges of divesting from Israel. It features insights from Melanie K.T., a professor at Harvard University, who discusses the general investment strategy managed by university boards and the outsourcing of endowment management to professional investment managers. The paragraph addresses the operational complexities of divestment, historical contexts such as the divestment from apartheid South Africa, and the current polarizing nature of the Israel-Palestine issue in the United States.

10:06

🛍️ Boycotting Israeli Products and Economic Impact

The third paragraph shifts the focus to the global call for boycotting Israeli products as a means of applying economic pressure. It discusses the challenges faced by Palestinians living under Israeli occupation and the impact of the boycott on multinational companies. The narrative also explores the economic dominance of Israel in the occupied territories and the efforts of Palestinians to support their local economy through boycotts, which indirectly affect Israeli economic control.

15:06

💵 Rebuilding Ukraine and Financial Repercussions on Russia

The fourth paragraph discusses the financial aspects of the Ukraine crisis, with a focus on the potential use of frozen Russian assets to fund rebuilding efforts. It outlines the positions of various countries, including the United States, European nations, and Russia itself, regarding the confiscation of assets. The narrative also touches on the potential legal and economic repercussions of such actions, as well as the broader concerns about setting precedents for international law and the potential impact on global trade.

20:08

🚫 TikTok Ban and its Implications for US Businesses

The fifth paragraph addresses the potential nationwide ban on TikTok in the United States if its Chinese owner, ByteDance, does not divest from the app. It highlights the concerns over data privacy and the possibility of the Chinese government accessing user information. The narrative also explores the potential legal challenges to the ban, the political context surrounding the issue, and the impact on small businesses and the broader economy that rely on TikTok for marketing and revenue.

25:10

🤝 Potential Buyers for TikTok and its Global Market

The sixth paragraph speculates on the process and implications of a potential sale of TikTok, considering the Chinese government's control over critical technology. It discusses the financial aspects of such a sale, the impact on small businesses that use TikTok as a marketing platform, and the potential for retaliation from China. The narrative also considers the broader implications for US-China relations and the global market.

Keywords

💡Divestment

Divestment refers to the process of selling off assets, investments, or interests in a particular company, industry, or country for ethical, social, or political reasons. In the context of the video, divestment specifically pertains to universities or institutions withdrawing their financial support or investments from companies or entities involved in activities deemed unethical, such as those related to Israel's war on Gaza. An example from the script is when protesters demand universities divest from companies linked to Israel or profiting from the war on Gaza.

💡Endowment

An endowment is a financial asset or fund that is donated or invested to generate income, typically to support a specific institution or cause, such as a university. In the video, universities rely on endowments, which often amount to billions of dollars, to fund various activities like scholarships, research, and staff salaries. For example, Columbia University in New York has an endowment fund of nearly $14 billion.

💡Sanctions

Sanctions are measures imposed by one country or group of countries against another in an effort to influence behavior, typically due to political disagreements or violations of international norms. In the video, there are discussions about imposing sanctions on Russia for its invasion of Ukraine, including freezing its assets held in Western financial institutions. An example from the script is Congress passing a bill to allow Ukraine to use frozen Russian assets.

💡Algorithm

An algorithm is a set of instructions or rules followed by a computer program to solve a problem or perform a task. In the context of social media platforms like TikTok, algorithms are used to recommend content to users based on their preferences, behavior, and interactions. Concerns raised in the video include fears that TikTok's algorithm could be manipulated by the Chinese government to spread misinformation or influence elections.

💡Privacy

Privacy refers to the right of individuals to control their personal information and data, including who has access to it and how it is used. In the context of social media apps like TikTok, privacy concerns arise regarding the collection and potential misuse of user data, especially if the app is owned by a company based in a country with less stringent data protection regulations. The video discusses fears that TikTok may share sensitive user data with the Chinese government.

💡Retaliate

To retaliate means to respond to an action or attack with a similar or equivalent counteraction. In the video, there is discussion about the potential for Russia to retaliate if its assets are seized by Western countries as a form of punishment for its invasion of Ukraine. Retaliation could take various forms, including imposing sanctions on the countries involved or taking action against their interests.

💡Propaganda

Propaganda refers to information, especially biased or misleading information, used to promote a particular political cause or point of view. In the context of concerns about TikTok, there are fears that the app could be used to spread propaganda or manipulate public opinion, particularly if influenced by the Chinese government. The video discusses worries that TikTok's algorithm could be used for censorship and to influence elections.

💡Invasion

An invasion is a military or hostile incursion into the territory of another country, typically with the intent to conquer, control, or annex. In the video, there is discussion about Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the resulting international response, including calls for sanctions and measures to hold Russia accountable. The invasion has sparked debates about how to respond effectively and whether economic measures like freezing assets can deter future aggression.

💡Ban

A ban is an official prohibition or restriction on something, often imposed by a government or regulatory authority. In the video, there is mention of a potential nationwide ban on TikTok in the United States if its Chinese owner, ByteDance, does not divest from the app. Banning TikTok could have significant consequences for its users, businesses, and the broader social media landscape.

💡Economy

The economy refers to the system of production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services within a region or country. In the video, discussions about the impact of geopolitical events like Russia's invasion of Ukraine on the global economy highlight the interconnectedness of financial markets and the potential ripple effects of sanctions and asset freezes. Economic considerations often play a central role in shaping political decisions and international relations.

Highlights

Protests at major American universities demand divestment from Israel, citing complicity in Gaza conflict.

Protests spread to Europe, echoing global calls for divestment from Israel.

Universities manage vast endowments, investing billions across various sectors.

Divestment campaigns historically successful, like those against apartheid South Africa.

Divestment from Israel faces challenges due to political polarization and donor interests.

Financial impact on universities concerning, as divestment may affect endowment values and returns.

Divestment aims to exert moral pressure on Israel's policies rather than just financial consequences.

Palestinian call for boycott and sanctions against Israel faces challenges due to economic dependence.

US and allies seek to make Russia financially accountable for Ukraine invasion.

Potential repercussions on global trade if EU and US impose sanctions on Russia.

Legal and economic complexities in seizing Russian assets prompt concerns in European countries.

Sanctions against Russia have not significantly impacted its economy, indicating resilience.

US legislation threatens to ban TikTok unless its Chinese owner divests, citing data privacy concerns.

TikTok's ban could disrupt its largest market, impacting American businesses and jobs.

Uncertainty surrounds potential Chinese retaliation if TikTok ban is implemented.

Transcripts

[Music]

[Music]

hello I'm n Barker this is counting the

costs on aler your weekly look at the

world of business and economics this

week calling University funding into

question protesters mainly in the US

demand their schools divest from Israel

for its war on Gaza so how do they make

their

money who should rebuild Ukraine the US

moves to make Russia pay for its

Invasion Moscow threatens to retaliate

if billions of its state assets are

confiscated sell Tik Tok or face a ban

the US is cracking down on the app's

Chinese owner bik down so how will it

and millions of American businesses be

affected

now from Columbia University in New York

to the University of Southern California

in Los Angeles protests against Israel's

war on Gaza spread across major American

colleges protesters demands vary in

scope from school to school but there is

one common message disclose and divest

students want their universities to be

more transparent about where their

school's money is going and demand these

institutions abandon a range of

investments in companies they say

complicit in genocide so does divestment

work we'll discuss that with our guests

shortly but first um Kum Sharif

reports a chant that's become an Anthem

at major colleges in the United

States students from campuses in the

east coast to the West have United their

voice against Israel's war on Gaza

that's killed nearly 35,000 Palestinians

since October at Columbia University in

New York where protests began more than

2 weeks ago there are calls for

divestment from

Israel the Ivy League school has an

endowment fund of nearly $14

billion protesters want the institution

to stise with companies linked with

Israel or are profiting from its war on

Gaza they include Tech giants like

Google and Microsoft defense companies

like lhe Martin and investment firm

black among others this is not a matter

of Simply violating University rules

this is a movement an anti-war

movement the university has so far

refused to divest from Israel but

offered to make investments in health

and education in

Gaza students reacted by taking over a

campus Building the police were called

in to clear them

[Applause]

out demonstrations have spread to

several colleges in the US with similar

calls to disclose and

divest at Harvard the richest University

in the US with an endowment fund of more

than $50 billion protesting students

wanted to reinvest resources in

Palestinian academic initiatives

communities and culture and at

University of Southern California

they've called for the school to end its

study abroad programs in Israel

Palestine hundreds of students and

several teachers have been arrested

across the country but protesters say

they will not stop the instances of

brutal State violence go to show that

our universities are scared and that is

why they're overreacting with violence

because they know the students have the

power they know the students across the

country are united for

divestment from campuses in the US

protests have spread to several colleges

in Europe

for months now global Mass

demonstrations have been calling for a

ceasefire from the streets the chants

are echoing in campuses the world over

with calls to divest from Israel omum

Sharif aler for counting the

cost so how do universities make their

money will they rely on tax exempt

donations that run into billions of

dollars to fund things like scholarships

research and even staff salaries the

National Association of college and

university business officers says at

least 700 institutions hold nearly 840

billion in endowment assets colleges and

universities invest this money across

financial markets and stocks hedge funds

businesses and real estate protesting

students want their universities to

withdraw or divest their endowments from

Israeli companies and businesses that

profit from Israel's war on Gaza they

want the money to be reallocated to more

ethical investment Ventures which in

turn can pressure a company or

government to change policies and

there's a history of student activists

targeting endowments during

demonstrations in the 1980s they

successfully persuaded universities to

divest from aparte South Africa and more

recently universities have divested from

fossil fuels and private prisons well

joining us from New York is Melanie KT

she's a professor and director of the

Weatherhead Center for intern Affairs at

Harvard University a very very warm

welcome to you thanks for joining us

when it comes to these Investments the

buying of stocks and shares how much due

diligence do universities across the

United States do before they spend their

cash before they invest their money well

um they uh usually Boards of

universities corporations of

universities are in charge of

establishing the general investment

strategy so they can instruct their

investment manager

uh what to invest in in Broad terms or

what to avoid uh but most of the time

University boards Outsource the

management of University endowments

University funds to professional

investment managers so they're not in

the weeds of exactly what is going on as

as I said they can adopt broad

principles of what they do and do not

want to invest in but they're not

necessarily deeply involved in what

choices are made for specific ific

assets to be invested in in that respect

practically how easy is it then for

universities to divest from

Israel I mean it's certainly possible uh

but uh but it's not easy in in the sense

of turning around immediately first of

all this is taking uh for under the

assumption that this is a choice that

universities would make and that choice

itself I think is going to be a

complicated one because of the

polarizing nature of this issue in the

United States but let's say that add

that decision was adopted it is

operationally complex because it's

difficult to get the micro level data to

know uh what exactly is in investment

portfolios but it's not impossible it

just would take some work and it would

not be a fast turnaround decision now

we've seen the success of divestment in

the past particularly when it comes to

uh aparte South Africa what is different

this time around do you think yeah so

this is a much more polarizing issue at

present now let me emphasize that South

Africa was not a done deal from the

beginning this is a a campaign that took

years and years in the making to come to

fruition so these kinds of divestment

campaigns can work but they often don't

work overnight now the question of

Israel Palestine is particularly

polarizing uh in the United States and

so I think this is a very tall order

it's more complicated as well because

you have a lot of congressional uh

intervention here as we know from what's

going on uh regarding Israel uh and the

campus uh dramas that are playing out

right now um there's also donor interest

in Israel as well donors that are major

contributors to American

institutions uh and so so this makes it

all the more complex this issue uh it's

more polarizing than let's say climate

change or tobacco has been these kinds

of public health issues that have uh

guided investment and divestment

decisions on University campuses what

about the potential Financial impact on

places of learning universities across

the us because students have potentially

been expelled or simply put off wanting

to study at these kind of Institutions

because of the handling of all of this

so

well this is a really uh challenging

issue right now in the United States and

what's What's um interesting if you look

across the landscape of universities

where these protests are playing out

University administrations have adopted

radically different approaches uh

ranging from arrests and expulsions and

so forth as you mentioned there are a

couple of universities that have adopted

a more conciliatory approach and have

agreed to actually speak with protesters

like for example Brown University or

Northwestern University so there's a

Divergence of approaches here um but

there's definitely a cross the board

concerns about divestment and

universities are very worried about

drops in their endowment values and on

the returns from endowments and so this

is a major concern that divestment will

affect the value of endowment payouts of

course uh behind all of this is a desire

to direct Israel to shape its foreign

policy to have an influence on the next

decisions that it makes in regards to

the war in Gaza how much do you think

will divver actually impact

Israel so my sense is that financially

it will have a minimal effect but this

is not necessarily about the financial

ramifications of divestment it's more

about the moral ramifications and so

divestment uh is as much an ethical

moral campaign as it is a financial

campaign and I think that's where the

impact promises to be more profound

because of causes that that are at the

center of divestment campaigns are

causes that become debates about moral

and ethical issues and so I think this

is the real issue is what's the impact

of divestment campaigns on public

opinion around the American relationship

with Israel and particularly support for

Israel's military activities all right

Melanie K great to have you on counter

the

coast great thank you so

much now the war on Gaza has led to

renewed calls to boycott Israeli

products for years Palestinians have

urged International sanctions to be

imposed in order to pressure Israel to

end its occupation but for many in the

occupied West Bank Israel's strangle

hold on the economy is a major obstacle

for the boycott movement Nita Ibrahim

has more from

Bethlehem around the world people are

echoing Palestinian calls to boycott and

sanction Israel activists WI in the

focus after the war on Gaza and are now

targeting multinational companies that

chose support to

Israel

Dr the sales of McDonald's and Starbucks

amongst others have declined and their

stocks took a hit but in the occupied

territory Israel dominates the economy

this leaves Palestinians with little to

no free choice when it comes to spending

their money me boycott is one way of

resisting the Israeli occupation yes we

can't fully boycott because they control

our water fuel and electricity but if I

can inflict 35% losses instead of 100%

then I will it's hard to measure the

losses from the boycott campaign but it

boosted Palestinian businesses like this

soda Factory soon these cans will make

their way to Jordan where boycott of

Israel has been

growing Israel controls our Import and

Export and they often impose heavy fines

and taxes on our raw materials we know

it's because they don't want

Palestinians to have factories and an

independent economy Palestinians do not

control their borders so all exports and

imports are subjected to Israel's

restrictions bans and

closures these restrictions have forced

the First Palestinian mushroom company

to shut down it was open to challenge

the Israeli domination of the market Sal

Hai is a founder of the company and an

activist in the boycott campaign what

part Israel tries to do is is break uh

the Palestinians um dominate um the

Palestinians and that includes keeping

them at a disadvantage uh economically

uh so to keep the economy under control

to force their own economy uh on you

products so on but the Israeli

authorities have little control over

homemade products like these this is a

local initiative to support small scale

projects making handmade soap crafts and

food for many boycotting Israeli

products also gives people the

opportunity to support small projects

any money that does not go to Israel

they say well instead help support a

Palestinian family survive the difficult

economic conditions nid ibraim Al jaaz

the occupied West Bank Palestine

according to the World Bank $411 billion

is needed to rebuild Ukraine the US and

its allies want Moscow to pay for its

Invasion Congress has passed a bill that

could allow Kiev to use some of Russia's

frozen assets Western Nations frow $300

billion do in Russian foreign Holdings

at the start of the conflict most of

that money is held in European financial

institutions the Kremlin has now

threatened to retaliate if its assets

are confiscated well Russia's R State

News Agency says the West stands to lose

assets worth

$288 billion if it's frozen funds are

seized according to Ria the top

investors in the Russian economy include

Cyprus with more than $98 billion the

Netherlands with 50 billion and the UK

with nearly $19 billion it also reports

that Germany has $17 billion invested

France $16 billion and Italy almost 13

billion Germany has pushed back on the

plan to use frozen Russian assets it

fears it could set a precedent and lead

to new lawsuits against the country for

World War II crimes Berlin has paid 90

billion in payments as compensation to

Holocaust Survivors and their families

the US roughly has $5 billion in Russian

assets and is unlikely to seize them

without the agreement of the Group of

Seven Nations and the European Union the

issue will be discussed at the upcoming

G 7 Summit in Italy in June well joining

us now from Brussels is Theresa Fallon

she's the director of the center for

Russia Europe and Asian studies and is a

senior fellow at the Chicago Council on

global Affairs are very warm welcome to

counting the cost so the US very much

going it alone with these measures

against Russia how are they being viewed

there in Europe and is the EU likely to

follow

suit well inside the US there's even

consternation about this some legal

Scholars would argue that this move is

unlawful nevertheless it could set

dangerous precedents for other us allies

for example Israel from the European

perspective uh as you noted Germany is

very concerned about war reparations

that Poland and Greece routinely ask for

and Japan which is part of the G7 is

also concerned how South Korea would ask

for war reparations so this uh could

just be one way of bringing Russia to

the negotiating table it's difficult at

this moment to know how much of it is

carrot and how much of it is stick of

course Russia has several potential

levers to pull itself as well given as

we mentioned in the introduction there

how much European money is deep in to

the Russian economy what are the

repercussions of uh Russia hitting back

for the EU and the Euro Zone they have

been seizing assets from various

companies and others are quietly

contining to uh do work in Russia so

they want to preserve their already

existing Investments we saw at the

beginning of the war the oil industry

just pulled out and left like 25 billion

on the table so they understood that

this might be a long-term War whereas

some middle standand companies from

Germany and Italy is also are very

deeply concerned about their Enterprises

so this is a lever that can be used by

Russia to kind of divide and conquer

European opinion on this this will be I

I imagine that there will be some sort

of compromise agreement worked out at

the G7 can Russia in any way push back

legally against this attempt to make the

country pay for the invasion pay for the

ongoing conflict in

Ukraine it is UN unprecedented in

international law so there are some

legal questions and if we start pulling

on some of the tapestry of international

legal agreements the whole thing might

unravel so Russia has complained that

this is a form of uh International

piracy and they they really thought that

by parking a lot of their assets abroad

that they would be safe so this is also

being watched very closely and carefully

by Beijing uh who is also trying to

learn ways to to protect their assets

should uh any cross straight crisis with

Taiwan blow up into conflict you

mentioned Beijing there because one of

the things noticed since the start of

the conflict is the direction that

Moscow is now looking when it turn when

it comes to its Investments and increase

in export looking very much to China

looking very much to India I wonder what

happens to global trade should the wrong

levers be pulled too soon perhaps by the

EU and by the United

States I think Europe is very

apprehensive they have made it very

clear they're not going to do anything

this year on this that they might

consider in 2025 so they're kind of

crossing the river by feeling the stones

to see how this will move I think the US

is trying to kind of pull them along by

by passing this legislation but it's

unclear what action the US will take

right now I think they are trying to

pull other countries within to influence

them but uh there's also demands by

central eastern European leaders fearful

that with a new Trump Administration

should he win the ele the US election uh

that all bets are off so Putin is

gambling that Trump will be reelected

and that he'll have a a better outcome

so there's a time element involved in

all of this as well so I think there's a

big gamble going on here Putin will see

how he plays plays it out if he can

spend this as long as possible with the

Europeans waiting to see how the

election turns out as well so they're

not willing to stick their neck out

either as your as you noted in your

earlyer uh programming that the most of

the Russian assets are parked throughout

Europe so that Europe really has a lot

at stake here the US has only about 5 to

six billion now despite close to 177,000

individual sanctions against Russia

imposed by the US and partner countries

despite an exodus of hundreds of major

International companies McDonald's Ikea

to name a few the international monetary

fund expects Russia's economy

nevertheless to to grow in

2024 um almost double that of what the

United Kingdom is expected to achieve

sanctions appear not to have really hit

their Mark in Moscow have

they exactly and we've seen uh

incredible ability of Russia to get

around sanctions we've seen increases uh

for example 300% exports from Kazakhstan

and Armenia for example so countries

companies are are finding roots

to get around sanctions so this is going

to be a big issue this also sends a

positive message to Beijing that propos

sanctions or promise sanctions should

they do anything might not really be as

watertight as as they might have uh

expected prior to their observed

experience of what Russia has gone

through so there's a will there's a way

and we've also seen a lot of you know

Russia has uh oil that they've been able

to export in a gry Zone way which is

actually quite dangerous for the

environment there's a lot of leakage but

they've had a lot of money coming in

from that and they're they're backed by

China they have a lot of increased trade

with China China has been filling that

Gap and there are questions about how

much China is actually aiding Russia uh

base for keeping up the the war in

Ukraine all right Teresa Fallon great to

have you on counting the cost thank

you thank you sell up or vanish from

American stores President Joe Biden has

signed a bill that could lead to a

Nationwide ban on Tik Tok if it's

Chinese owner bite does doesn't divest

from the app but the deadline is in

about a year's time that's after the

2024 election politicians are worried

Tik Tok may share sensitive user data

with the Chinese government the company

has always denied the allegations and

says it will challenge what it calls an

unconstitutional law in court well the

stakes are high for Tik Tok losing its

biggest Market with 170 million users

the video sharing app helps generate

billions of dollars for more than 7

million American businesses and supports

more than 224,000 jobs the legal battle

could take months or years to settle

meanwhile Tik Tok will likely still be

available in the US India banned Tik Tok

in 2020 while other countries including

Britain Australia Canada and France have

blocked It On official devices we'll

discuss all of this joining me now from

Berlin is Frederica Cuna she's a tech

policy expert a very warm welcome to you

so let me start by asking you this was

the uh us or is the US right about its

fears surrounding Tik Tock and his

parent company bite dance I think the

fears are correct the response raises

some really serious questions and

consider that precedent so there are

basically two main concerns about Tik

Tok the first one is like any other

social media app Tik Tok collects vast

amounts of data and the fear is that

because the Chinese government has a lot

of influence over companies in its

territory like bite dance the fear is

that the Chinese government could access

data on over 170 million us Americans so

that's the Privacy fear the second fear

is about manipulation and interference

Tik Tok is so popular because its

algorithm is really good at recommending

content it's very hard to see from the

outset how and why content is

recommended and how content is being

moderated again the American fear here

is that this means that the app could be

influenced by the Chinese government to

uh spread misinformation for censorship

and to influence the elections so those

are the concerns however there are many

things the US government could do

instead of bending the app

wholesale if the ban does go into force

it won't be for at least N9 months time

and the assumption is that there may

well be some legal push back from Tik

Tock and its parent company bite dance

as well it does beg the question

therefore is this purely a political

move especially as one former US

president Donald Trump seemed keen on

Banning Tik Tok too I don't think this

is a purely political move there seems

to be a bipartisan support or bipartisan

concern about Tik Tok Trump tried to ban

the app Trump tried to ban the app when

he was in office it failed due to a

legal challenge now this is the second

attempt at Banning the app uh we will

expect legal challenges coming from Tik

Tok who claim that a ban um violates the

First

Amendment so I don't think it's cynical

they're real concerns it's still a very

bold move to just ban an entire app when

the United States for instance could

Implement a comprehensive data Privacy

Law that currently doesn't exist the us

could Implement a platform law or

platform regulation such as the European

Union has that would force all social

media apps including Tik Tok to be much

much more transparent about how they

operate Microsoft Oracle even Walmart

have been flagged as potential buyers of

Tik Tok how do you go about buying a

company like this and how much does it

even

cost I think first of all the question

is would by Den even want to sell Tik

Tock so the Chinese government passed a

law uh that means the government has to

agree to any purchase of critical

technology and Tik Tok and its algorithm

have been deemed critical so the first

question is would the Chinese government

even agree to a sell of Tik Tok the

second one is the price tag uh Tik Tok

the US is Tik tok's largest market I

already said 170 million users last year

the financial times reported 16 billion

in sale there are very few American

companies that could even afford a

purchase of of an app like Tik Tok given

the number of users in the United States

and indeed globally it does beg the

question what sort of impact a ban on

Tik Tok there would have on small

businesses for instance that use Tik Tok

as a really important marketing tool for

instance well we've seen from other

countries uh India has banned Tik Tok a

few years ago we've seen that small

businesses influencers uh moved onto

other platforms not all people who have

a large following on Tik Tok have the

same following let's say on Instagram or

on other apps so there's a question

whether some people lose out in this

move but we've generally seen that

people shift to other apps uh when an

app gets bent is there any scope here

also is there any scope here sorry to

interrupt for China to potentially

retaliate if uh this ban goes ahead a

lot of CH a lot of American apps are

already banned in China I think it's

definitely not a positive a step towards

good us Chinese

relationships okay Frederica Cuna great

to have you on counting the cost many

thanks thank

you well that's our show for this week

get in touch with us on X formally known

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counting the cost I'm NE Barker and from

the whole team thanks for joining us the

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