The Moronic Morality of Undertale (ft. The Pope)

Summary

In this imaginative and humorous transcript, Pope Francis engages in a discussion with Harry Gold about the indie game Undertale, focusing on its moral themes and gameplay mechanics. They explore the game's unique approach to non-violent conflict resolution, the humor that initially deterred Harry, and the concept of 'ludo-narrative dissonance.' The conversation touches on the game's narrative critique of violence in gaming, while also acknowledging its own moralizing tone and the challenges it presents to players.

Takeaways

• 😀 Pope Francis, in a humorous twist, is depicted as an avid video game player and host of a podcast discussing games.
• 🎮 The conversation centers around the indie game 'Undertale', focusing on its unique approach to morality in gaming.
• 🎁 Pope Francis received 'Undertale' as a gift from Matthew Patrick of The Game Theorists, sparking his interest in the game's moral themes.
• 🤔 The discussion explores the game's 'no kill' mechanic, which challenges traditional video game norms where combat is often necessary.
• 😅 There's a shared appreciation for the humor in 'Undertale', which initially was perceived differently by Harry Gold.
• 🎶 Both the Pope and Harry Gold praise the game's music, dialogue, and characterization, highlighting its artistic merits.
• 🤓 The conversation delves into 'Ludo-Narrative Dissonance', where the game's mechanics clash with its narrative.
• 🤔 The ethical dilemma of self-defense in 'Undertale' is questioned, as the game's narrative doesn't align with the player's need to defend themselves.
• 🎭 The script satirically addresses the Pope's views on gaming, providing a playful and thought-provoking take on the intersection of faith and entertainment.
• 🔍 The dialogue scrutinizes the game's moral stance, suggesting it is at times hypocritical and overly simplistic in its portrayal of violence.

Q & A

Who is Pope Francis discussing the game Undertale with in the script?

Pope Francis is discussing the game Undertale with Harry Gold in the script.

What is the Popecast, as mentioned in the script?

The Popecast is described as the Vatican's number one interview show where Pope Francis discusses various topics, including video games.

What gift did Matthew Patrick of The Game Theorists give to Pope Francis?

Matthew Patrick gave Pope Francis a copy of the 2015 indie game Undertale.

What other video game does Pope Francis mention playing in the script?

Pope Francis mentions playing Animal Crossing in the script.

What is the issue Harry Gold initially had with Undertale's humor as described in the script?

Harry Gold initially had an issue with Undertale's humor because it was portrayed to him as pretentious and smug, similar to 'alternative comedy'.

How does Harry Gold describe the initial impression of Undertale's moral stance?

Harry Gold describes the initial impression of Undertale's moral stance as sanctimonious and high-handed, making it seem like it's looking down on other games and players.

What is the concept of 'Ludo-Narrative Dissonance' as discussed in the script?

Ludo-Narrative Dissonance is when the gameplay elements of a video game do not align with the narrative elements, creating a clash between what is happening in the game and the story being told.

What is the main criticism Harry Gold has about Undertale's portrayal of violence in the script?

Harry Gold criticizes Undertale for its portrayal of violence by suggesting that the game's narrative does not justify the player's actions when they are forced to fight back against enemies, yet the game treats the player as if they are the aggressor.

What is the significance of the 'LV' and 'XP' in Undertale as mentioned in the script?

In Undertale, 'LV' stands for 'level of violence' and 'XP' stands for 'execution points', which is a commentary on the game's theme of non-violence and the traditional role of these terms in video games.

How does Pope Francis relate the concept of violence in Undertale to a biblical verse?

Pope Francis relates the concept of violence in Undertale to the biblical verse Matthew 5:39, which suggests turning the other cheek when struck, to illustrate the game's theme of non-violence.

What is the outcome of the discussion between Pope Francis and Harry Gold regarding Undertale's narrative and gameplay?

The outcome of the discussion is that while Harry Gold appreciates Undertale for its humor, story, and characters, he finds the ethical undercurrent and the dissonance between the narrative and gameplay to be problematic.

Outlines

00:00

🎮 Pope Francis Discusses Undertale and Morality

Pope Francis begins the Vatican's top interview show, the Popecast, by expressing his enjoyment of the indie game Undertale, a gift from Matthew Patrick of The Game Theorists. He introduces Harry Gold as a guest to discuss the game's unique take on morality. The Pope also shares his recent gaming experiences, including Animal Crossing, and the challenges of social distancing within the Vatican. The conversation transitions into a discussion about Undertale's humor, which Harry initially found off-putting but later appreciated. The Pope and Harry also touch on the game's moral stance, with Harry suggesting that Undertale's non-violent approach can come across as sanctimonious, while the Pope acknowledges the potential for such perceptions.

05:02

🤔 The Moral Dilemma in Undertale's Gameplay

Harry Gold and Pope Francis delve deeper into Undertale's gameplay mechanics, particularly the 'not killing enemies' aspect, which Harry sees as a puzzle rather than a moral statement. They discuss the game's ending, where the traditional meanings of 'LV' and 'XP' are subverted to reflect 'level of violence' and 'execution points,' respectively. Harry criticizes this twist for being condescending towards players of other games. The Pope suggests that Undertale might be poking fun at the common gaming trope of gaining levels by defeating enemies. The conversation leads to a broader discussion on 'ludo-narrative dissonance,' where gameplay elements conflict with the game's narrative, using examples from Bioshock and Max Payne 3 to illustrate the concept.

10:04

🔍 The Inconsistency of Undertale's Morality

Harry and Pope Francis critique Undertale's moral stance, pointing out the game's inconsistency in treating player actions. While the game encourages non-violent solutions, it places the burden of conflict resolution on the player, who must figure out how to pacify aggressive monsters. Harry argues that this setup is unreasonable, as the monsters' relentless aggression is not justified, and the game fails to address the moral quandary of self-defense. The Pope references a biblical verse about turning the other cheek, to which Harry responds that the game's context is vastly different from the metaphorical meaning. They also discuss the game's narrative, where certain characters are portrayed as innocent despite their violent intentions, highlighting a double standard in the game's moral judgment.

15:05

🎉 Conclusion and Future Gaming Insights

In the final paragraph, Harry Gold concludes his interview with Pope Francis, expressing his overall appreciation for Undertale despite its flawed ethical narrative. Pope Francis thanks Harry for his insights and promotes Harry's YouTube channel. The Pope then transitions to discussing the new Nether Bastion update in Minecraft, showing his continued interest in gaming. The video ends with a call to action for viewers to subscribe for more content and to engage in the comments section. The Pope's final words are a blessing and a reminder to stay safe, encapsulating the Popecast's mission to blend gaming culture with thoughtful discussion.

Keywords

💡Undertale

Undertale is an indie role-playing game developed by Toby Fox, known for its unique combat system that allows players to spare the lives of enemies instead of killing them. In the video, it is discussed in the context of its moral themes and gameplay mechanics, particularly how the game's narrative and mechanics sometimes clash in terms of morality.

💡Moralizing

Moralizing refers to the act of expressing or conveying moral principles. In the video, Harry Gold criticizes Undertale for appearing sanctimonious or moralizing, suggesting that the game seems to look down on players who choose to kill enemies, implying a moral superiority.

💡Ludo-Narrative Dissonance

Ludo-Narrative Dissonance is a term in game design that describes the conflict between a game's narrative (story elements) and its gameplay mechanics. The Pope and Harry Gold discuss this concept in relation to Undertale, where the game's message of non-violence is at odds with the player being forced to defend themselves against relentless enemies.

💡Pacifism

Pacifism is the opposition to war, violence, or conflict, often through the belief in the possibility of permanent world peace. The video discusses Undertale's pacifist approach to gameplay, where players can choose to spare enemies, reflecting the game's moral stance against violence.

💡Gameplay Mechanics

Gameplay mechanics refer to the rules and methods by which players interact with a game. In the context of the video, the discussion revolves around how Undertale's mechanics, such as the ability to spare enemies, contribute to its moral themes and the player's experience.

💡Narrative Elements

Narrative elements are the components of a story, including characters, plot, and setting. The video script touches on how Undertale's narrative elements, such as the characters' motivations and the game's story, can create dissonance with the gameplay mechanics, leading to ethical questions.

💡Violence in Video Games

Violence in video games is a recurring topic of debate, often concerning the impact of violent content on players. The video discusses Undertale's approach to violence, contrasting it with other games where violence is a central gameplay mechanic.

💡Self-Defence

Self-defence is the act of protecting oneself from harm. In the video, Harry Gold argues that Undertale's moral stance is flawed because it fails to consider the concept of self-defence, where players must fight back against enemies that are trying to kill them.

💡Game Grumps

Game Grumps is a popular YouTube channel featuring gameplay videos with comedic commentary. In the script, Harry Gold mentions watching Undertale playthroughs on Game Grumps, which influenced his perception of the game's humor and storytelling.

💡Indie Game

An indie game is a video game developed by an individual or small team without the financial support of a large publisher. Undertale is mentioned as a 2015 smash hit indie game, highlighting its success despite being developed outside the mainstream industry.

💡Pope Francis

Pope Francis is the head of the Catholic Church and is portrayed in the video script as an avid video game player. His inclusion in the script adds a humorous twist, as he discusses the moral themes of Undertale from a religious and philosophical perspective.

Highlights

Pope Francis expresses his enjoyment of the indie game Undertale and its unique take on morality.

The Pope discusses his interest in video games and their potential to convey moral concepts.

Harry Gold shares his initial reservations about Undertale's humor and moralizing tone.

Pope Francis and Harry Gold compare Undertale to other games like Earthbound and its sequel Mother 3.

The conversation touches on the humor in Undertale and how it differs from expectations.

Harry Gold clarifies that Undertale's 'not killing enemies' mechanic is more of a puzzle than a moral stance.

Pope Francis acknowledges the potential for Undertale to come across as sanctimonious.

The discussion delves into the concept of 'Ludo-Narrative Dissonance' in video games.

Harry Gold points out the irony in Undertale's narrative where enemies attack the player but the player is criticized for fighting back.

Pope Francis references Matthew 5:39 to discuss turning the other cheek in the context of Undertale's combat.

The conversation highlights the game's failure to address the moral quandary of self-defense in its narrative.

Harry Gold criticizes Undertale's antagonist for its naïve portrayal of 'kill or be killed' scenarios.

Pope Francis draws a parallel between Undertale and The Hunger Games, discussing the avoidance of moral dilemmas in both.

Harry Gold concludes the discussion by appreciating Undertale's music, dialogue, and characterization, despite its flawed ethical narrative.

Pope Francis invites listeners to explore the new Nether Bastion update in Minecraft, showcasing his continued interest in gaming.

The Popecast episode ends with a call to action for viewers to subscribe for more content and engage in the comments section.

Transcripts

Good tidings, my children.

I am the Pope Francis;

Bishop of Rome, head of The Worldwide Catholic Church,

and, as you all know,

an avid player of video games.

You are listening now to the Vatican's number one interview show,

the Popecast.

Now, many of you will recall that several years ago now, my friend MatPat -

that is, Matthew Patrick of The Game Theorists YouTube channel -

gave to me as a gift a copy of 2015  smash hit indie game, Undertale.

Of course, I set about playing it as soon as I returned to the papal palace.

Personally, I thoroughly enjoyed it.

But moreover, I am interested in its take on the concept of morality.

I have a guest on now who would like to discuss this particular aspect of the game.

His name is Harry Gold.

[Intro Theme Plays]

ANNOUNCER: Coming to you from Beautiful downtown Fortitude Valley...

It's The Harry Gold Show!

With your host, Harry Gold!

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the program!

Recently I won a raffle for freshly begun YouTube channels

where the prize was an interview with Pope Francis on his weekly podcast!

This was an absolutely fascinating experience.

Here's the rest of our chat.

POPE: Welcome to the show, Harry Gold.

HARRY: Well thanks for having me your Holiness, it's great to be here.

POPE: I have been playing much Animal Crossing of late,

as has everybody here in the Vatican City.

I wish it was as easy to social distance from Barold as it is from my Archbishops, but alas and alack.

Such is the way of things.

HARRY: Yeah, don't I know it.

POPE: But I'm told you have opinions on Undertale,

which I will happily take any excuse to discuss.

I very much enjoyed the game... of course it was quite reminiscent of Earthbound

for the Super Nintendo, another favourite of mine.

HARRY: Yeah, absolutely. Did you ever play the sequel? Mother 3?

POPE: No, but I would like to.

HARRY: I highly recommend it. Beautiful game, beautiful.

Anyway, back to Undertale.

POPE: Yes, Undertale.

HARRY: So, yeah. I didn't get into Undertale until years after the fact.

I've heard some people say they were put off by the fan community, you know?

But that wasn't the case for me. I was put off by a couple of things, personally.

Firstly, the the way the game's sense of humour  was portrayed to me by people who liked it

made it sound like some kind of pretentious Terry  Pratchett gobbledygook,

that sort of Hitchhiker's Guide kind of British-style comedy

that's so unbelievably smug and self-conscious.

And just trying so, so painfully hard that it kind of forgot to be funny.

POPE: I believe they used to call this 'alternative comedy.'

HARRY: Yeah. Yeah, they did. Because it was, you know...

an alternative to comedy.

Anyway I guess someone who liked that stuff tried to sell me on Undertale, because that was the impression I got.

But also, the game sounded really sanctimonious.

POPE: I can relate to that.

HARRY: The idea of a game where you don't have to kill the monsters is kind of novel,

It's a cute idea, but it sounded to me like it was a game that looked down on you

and looked down on other video games and said, you know,

we are more enlightened than all of those games about killing.

We turn our nose up at them, and we turn our nose up at you, the people who play them.

POPE: I can see how it might seem that way.

HARRY: Well, from the outside perspective, Undertale sounded like a lofty high-handed moralizing story

about making you feel bad for playing things like Final Fantasy and Earthbound.

POPE: I played Final Fantasy 13, and I feel bad about that anyway.

HARRY: So, eventually I was watching through the back catalogue

of playthroughs on the Game Grumps YouTube channel.

POPE: Oh, I like those guys. It was better with Jon,  but I do like Dan.

HARRY: Yeah. And these two guys, Ross O'Donovan and Barry Kramer

played through Undertale, and I thought, I have no real intention of playing this game

but I'm interested in seeing what it's all about. People really do love it, so I am interested.

So I pretty quickly found from watching them play  that, fortunately, I was totally wrong about the humour.

It was it was actually quite funny. There are some good gags in there.

POPE: The part where Papyrus jumps out of Undyne's window made me laugh out loud.

HARRY: Yeah, that was good.

So, I thought it was a funny game. I thought it had an engaging story.

I was also happy to find out that, more than anything, the whole 'not killing enemies' schtick was actually a puzzle.

You have to figure out in each fight what to do to beat the monster without attacking it.

How do you talk him out of killing you? You know.

POPE: It's a nice idea.

HARRY: Yeah. It's a nice idea.

But at the same time, I found I wasn't exactly wrong about the high-handed moralizing thing.

I mean, like, they do this super corny thing at the end where they're like,

"You thought you've been levelling up throughout the game, but  LV isn't really short for level, it's short for 'level of violence!'

And the XP stands for 'execution points,' so if you've got any of those you're a bad person.

And it feels like it's putting down anyone  who plays any other game where you get those things.

Like, you're really a murderer in every game  ever made... except the paragon of virtue that is Undertale.

POPE: I don't know. It's been a joke for a long time that in games where you beat the, uh, how you say,

low-level enemies,

you're just slaughtering the innocent wildlife to get the treasure and level up.

Perhaps it is just poking fun at that.

HARRY: Yeah, but, I mean...

Have you ever heard of "Ludo-Narrative Dissonance?"

POPE: Of course. It's when the story and the gameplay don't line up.

HARRY: Yeah, yeah.

POPE: So for anyone in the audience who is not familiar,

So, in the game there are a ludic elements and a narrative elements.

The ludic elements are the gameplay elements.

So in Mario, the ludic elements are you can run and jump, and when you get to the flagpole at the end of a level you win.

The narrative elements are, you are off to rescue Princess Peach from Bowser.

The idea of ludo-narrative dissonance  is when the gameplay clashes with the story.

HARRY: Yeah, I mean, there's always going to be a little bit of  clash, just by nature of the restrictions of being a video game.

Like, there's no narrative reason Mario is only capable of running and jumping.

There's no button for punching in most Mario games,  even though he should be physically capable of it.

But, I mean, that's not really an issue.

POPE: There's no button for praying, either.

He's Italian, probably a good Catholic boy.

I think he'd want to do the design of the cross before jumping over a bottomless hole.

HARRY: You know, you're probably right.

It's when you get into broader problems with a clash between the story and gameplay that you see real issues.

I mean, the classic example is in Bioshock, of course.

The plot is about how selfishness is bad, but then the gameplay allows you to be ruthlessly self-serving

without adversely affecting the outcome of the narrative at all.

Or, um...

Max Payne 3!

Right, where the the plot is you're a wreck, and your life has gone totally to hell -

POPE: Ah!

HARRY: Sorry! Sorry, your Holiness.

So Max Payne's life has gone totally to the dogs,

but when you actually get to playing, you're as sharp and fast and capable as you ever were.

and it doesn't really make sense, right?

POPE: Not really.

HARRY: So that's where things get kind of dumb in Undertale, right?

This is a game where no one has to die - that's what it said in the trailer. Everyone can be spared.

But no one is trying to spare you!

POPE: That is true.

HARRY: If you're playing the normal way, enemies attack you. You don't confront them.

They will then keep attacking you, every turn, turn after turn.

Even if you choose to do nothing.

And if you do do nothing, they will continue to damage you and then eventually you will just die.

The onus is on you to figure out how to placate them,

All the while avoiding their attempts to destroy you.

I mean, how is that reasonable?

POPE: Well, after all, after all...

Matthew 5, verse 39, does say:

"But whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

HARRY: Yeah, but, with all due respect, father,

if one of these monsters smites you on your right cheek, it'll take your head off!

I don't think that's quite what Jesus had in mind.

So to say a horde of monsters is trying to destroy you for  literally no reason at all,

and if you fight back then you're a murderer,

it doesn't make sense to me.

But the monsters are not considered bad guys for trying to kill you!

You're just a bad guy if you try to return the favour.

POPE: Papyrus will spare you. He does not kill you, he just puts you in a cage that you walk out of again.

HARRY: That is true! But every other boss in the game, they pick a fight with you,

and they try to kill you. And that's the problem!

The game treats every enemy you kill like an innocent you have slaughtered out of your own or blood-thirsty malice

and it makes sure you know that it thinks you're awful.

But that's dumb!

You couldn't contrive a scenario that was more  obviously self-defence.

POPE: Well, not according to Undertale.

HARRY: I mean, it's not just random monsters  trying to kill you either.

The narrative is that the king of this place, Aslan -

POPE: Asgore. As-GORE.

HARRY: What did I say?

POPE: Aslan.

HARRY: [Laughs] That's the wrong big hairy guy.

So, um, Asgore wants your head on a platter

and he's sent his top knight to get you.

POPE: Undyne.

HARRY: Yeah, Undyne.

So, conveniently, Asgore's just a nice guy who is misguided about the right thing to.

Never mind he's already, like, murdered a bunch of people before you even got there.

Apparently he still doesn't count as a  bad guy.

He doesn't get the game crossing its arms and shaking its head, and going, "tsk, tsk, tsk, how awful."

POPE: It sort of does.

HARRY: Not really. Like, not in the same way.

I mean, he gets an eye-roll from his ex-wife which was  gonna happen anyway because Toriel's a ratbag.

But, so, Undyne, his top Knight.

POPE: The lesbian fish lady.

HARRY: Yeah, that's the one.

She puts you through this prolonged sequence of escaping her attempts to murder you with giant laser spears.

But, of course, fighting back is still not justified here,

She turns out to be a great gal, and everyone is just best buds by the end of the game.

So the best part is - and I mean I love it when they do this -

The game's antagonist even poses this moral quandary at the beginning of the game,

Which is: Sure, you can have mercy on some people and end the fight peacefully.

But what will you do if you meet a relentless killer?

What if you meet someone who's just gonna keep trying to kill you no matter what you do?

And the answer is, that question is inconvenient so we're not gonna answer it!

This game is too imperious, we're just gonna brush that under the carpet.

You never meet anyone like that. You never meet  anyone that you have to kill to get past in the game, ever.

POPE: This is like the The Hunger Games, did  you see that movie?

HARRY: Yeah, yeah.

POPE: Well, the movie is about this awful scenario about being forced into an arena to kill innocent people,

but there's a line that goes something like "I won't  to become who they want me to become."

HARRY: M-hm.

POPE: But the all of the innocent people just go die of their  own accord.

The main character never has to consider ever killing any innocent person to stay alive herself.

The only people she killed are one dimensional bad guys.

HARRY: Yeah, it is kind of like that.

And it's just kind of naïve. I mean,

Flowey, the villain in Undertale, says all the time "it's kill or be killed" and the game is about demonstrating how that's wrong.

But the game's contrived so it's wrong!

I mean, in in real life there is such a thing as a homicidal  maniac, right?

If you say to a homicidal maniac, "Don't worry, I spare you!"

It'll probably give him a good chuckle while he continues to stab you in the jugular.

I'd like to make it clear, by the way, I quite like Undertale overall.

I think it's a good game. First-rate music, great dialogue and  characterization.

Just, the ethical undercurrent of the story is thoroughly imbecilic.

POPE: Fair enough.

Thank you for coming on the Popecast, Harry Gold.

HARRY: Thanks so much for having me.

POPE: You can check out Harry Gold on on the Harry Gold Show channel on YouTube.

HARRY: Thanks so much.

POPE: So, I don't know about you listening, but

I find this new Nether Bastion update to be a fascinating addition to Minecraft.

I love that Mojang is even...

Well, that was my interview with the Pope about Undertale.

If you enjoyed this video, hit that subscribe button!

More fun stuff will come your way soon.

If you have something to add to this timely discussion, let us know in the comments!

But this has been The Harry Gold Show.

So until next time, stay safe -

and God bless!