POLITICO Interview with Richard Moore, Head of MI6

Summary

The transcript features a speech by an MI6 official discussing the agency's core business of recruiting and running agents in challenging environments. It highlights the importance of empathy, confidence, and understanding in forging relationships with courageous individuals from other nations who oppose their own governments' actions. The official addresses the current conflict involving Russia and Ukraine, emphasizing the bravery of the Ukrainian military and the support from allies. The speech also touches on the growing significance of China in global affairs and the need for the intelligence community to adapt to the evolving landscape of AI, while maintaining ethical standards and prioritizing human agency.

Takeaways

• 🌍 The core business of the intelligence agency is recruiting and running agents in the most inhospitable places on Earth, with a focus on building relationships based on empathy, confidence, and understanding.
• 🔍 Maintaining secrecy is crucial for the agency, not for its own sake, but due to the high stakes involved in protecting agents and ensuring the effectiveness of their operations.
• 🌟 The agency recognizes the best human qualities are found globally, as evidenced by Russians in 1968 who opposed the moral travesty in Prague and those today who are appalled by the actions in Ukraine.
• 🇷🇺 There are Russians, including Yevgeny Pragosyn, who have turned against the Putin regime due to its fraudulent and miasma-like lies and fantasies regarding the war in Ukraine.
• 🇺🇦 The agency supports Ukraine in its counter-offensive efforts and believes in the importance of Ukraine's armed forces demonstrating their ability to innovate and mobilize new technology.
• 🤖 Artificial intelligence (AI) is seen as a tool that will augment but not replace human judgment in the intelligence field, with human agents providing unique insights and capabilities beyond AI's reach.
• 🌐 The agency is devoting more resources to China than anywhere else, reflecting its increasing global significance and the need to understand both the intent and capability of the Chinese government.
• 🔗 The agency's approach to diversity is driven by the belief that it leads to greater creativity and better problem-solving, which are essential for avoiding groupthink and enhancing intelligence operations.
• 🛑 The agency is concerned about the potential for hostile states to use AI in damaging, reckless, and unethical ways, and aims to uncover and disrupt such developments.
• 🤝 The agency's commitment to its agents is lifelong, with gratitude expressed towards those who have worked to support freedom and democracy.
• 📣 The agency's message to potential defectors within Russia is one of openness and a promise of protection, emphasizing the shared humanity and purpose in working together.

Q & A

What is the core business of the British intelligence agency mentioned in the transcript?

The core business of the agency is recruiting and running agents in the most inhospitable places on Earth, often at immense risk, and maintaining secrecy to protect the lives of their agents and the effectiveness of their work.

How does the agency view the relationship with their agents?

The agency views its relationship with agents as one of empathy, confidence, and understanding, emphasizing a lifelong loyalty and eternal gratitude towards their agents.

What was the significance of the 1968 Russian agents who joined the British intelligence agency?

The Russian agents who joined in 1968 were significant because they acted on their convictions against the moral travesty of the Prague Spring, choosing to support freedom and align with the agency's cause.

What does the transcript suggest about the current Russian sentiment towards the Ukraine conflict?

The transcript suggests that there are many Russians who are silently appalled by their Armed Forces' actions in Ukraine, recognizing Putin's case for attacking a fellow Slavic nation as fraudulent and a miasma of lies and fantasy.

How does the speaker describe the role of AI in the intelligence service?

The speaker describes AI as a tool that will make information more accessible and augment the judgment of intelligence teams, but also emphasizes that AI will not replace the unique value of human intelligence agents who can task, direct, and influence decisions.

What is the agency's stance on the use of AI by hostile states?

The agency is concerned about hostile states using AI in damaging, reckless, and unethical ways, and they aim to obtain intelligence on such activities to protect their citizens and counter these threats.

How does the agency handle the challenge of disinformation and fake news?

The agency places a premium on discovering the truth through accurate, verified reporting from human agents and technical operations, recognizing that in a world of disinformation and fakery, the unique characteristics of human agents become even more significant.

What is the agency's approach to dealing with the Wagner group and similar mercenaries?

The agency does not specifically mention its approach to dealing with the Wagner group in the transcript, but it does highlight the importance of understanding and potentially disrupting the activities of such groups, especially when they pose a threat to national security or engage in unethical actions.

How does the agency view the importance of personal data and privacy in the context of international relations?

The agency views personal data and privacy as critical to national sovereignty and cautions against handing over data to other states, as it can lead to a data trap that dilutes sovereignty and leaves nations vulnerable.

What is the agency's perspective on the strategic focus between Russia and China?

While Russia's aggression is a significant concern, the agency now devotes more resources to China, reflecting its increasing global significance and the challenges it poses to the UK's national security and values.

What is the agency's commitment to diversity and inclusion?

The agency is committed to better representing the country it serves by promoting diversity and inclusion, as it believes that diversity brings greater creativity, better problem-solving, and helps avoid group think.

Outlines

00:00

🌍 Global Espionage and Moral Complexity

This section highlights the critical role of espionage in global politics, focusing on the British intelligence service's efforts to operate in harsh environments worldwide. It emphasizes the moral dilemmas and risks involved in espionage, citing historical examples like the cooperation with Russians who opposed their government's actions in Prague in 1968 and today's context of Russian aggression in Ukraine. The narrative underscores the importance of secrecy, empathy, and the protection of agents' lives in intelligence work, framing the intelligence service as a defender of freedom and human values against authoritarian regimes.

05:01

📡 Technological Warfare and Strategic Priorities

This paragraph discusses the evolving landscape of global threats, with a specific focus on Iran's support for Russia against Ukraine, highlighting the moral and strategic implications. It also addresses the UK intelligence service's shifting focus towards China, reflecting its growing global influence and the complex challenges posed by digital sovereignty, artificial intelligence (AI), and disinformation. The emphasis is on the necessity of engaging with China despite the risks, the importance of protecting national data sovereignty, and the unique challenges AI poses to traditional espionage and information integrity.

10:04

🤖 AI and the Future of Human Intelligence

The narrative explores the impact of artificial intelligence (AI) on human intelligence operations, emphasizing that human intelligence will retain unique value in the age of AI. It discusses how AI can augment the intelligence service's capabilities without replacing the critical human element, highlighting the potential of AI to predict and influence human behavior more accurately than ever before. The importance of ethical considerations in the development and use of AI by intelligence services is stressed, with a commitment to mastering AI's safe and ethical use to protect national interests.

15:05

🗣️ Public Engagement and Intelligence Disclosures

This section details a public engagement session where the speaker reflects on the historical context of Prague in relation to current events in Ukraine, drawing parallels between past and present conflicts involving Russian aggression. The speaker addresses the challenges faced by Ukraine's military efforts against Russia, the importance of international support for Ukraine, and the strategic implications of intelligence sharing and support. The narrative also covers internal Russian dynamics, including the Wagner Group's rebellion and its implications for Vladimir Putin's leadership.

20:06

🔍 Ethical Espionage and Protecting Defectors

The conversation shifts to the ethics of espionage, the protection offered to defectors, and the lifelong commitment to agents. It discusses the challenges and successes of attracting sources from adversarial countries, particularly Russia, in light of the Ukrainian conflict. The narrative also touches on the broader implications of high-profile intelligence leaks, the importance of maintaining trust among intelligence allies, and the commitment to uphold ethical standards in intelligence work.

25:06

🌐 Global Intelligence Dynamics and Ethical Considerations

This paragraph delves into the complexities of international intelligence collaboration, focusing on the relationship between different nations' intelligence services and the challenges posed by internal threats and ethical dilemmas. It discusses the nuanced positions of various countries towards Russia, Iran, and China, highlighting the strategic importance of understanding and countering the ambitions of these nations while adhering to ethical principles and respecting human values.

30:09

🔖 Values, Diversity, and the Role of AI in Intelligence

The final section discusses the importance of values, diversity, and inclusivity within the intelligence community, emphasizing the strategic advantage and ethical imperative of representing the broader society. It also revisits the role of artificial intelligence (AI) in modern espionage, highlighting the ethical challenges and potential dangers associated with AI development. The narrative concludes with a commitment to using AI responsibly, preserving human agency, and ensuring that intelligence operations remain grounded in ethical practices and human values.

Keywords

💡Intelligence Services

Refers to agencies that gather and analyze information to support national security. In the context of the video, it relates to the role of MI6 in supporting Ukraine and countering threats from hostile states. The speaker emphasizes the importance of these services in maintaining secrecy to protect agents and the effectiveness of their operations.

💡Human Intelligence

Human Intelligence (HUMINT) involves the collection of information by human sources, often undercover or through clandestine operations. In the video, the speaker highlights the unique value of human agents who can be tasked and directed, identify new questions, and sometimes influence decisions within governments or terrorist groups, which AI cannot replicate.

💡Disinformation

Disinformation refers to the deliberate spread of false information to deceive and mislead. The video discusses how authoritarian regimes use disinformation, often aided by artificial intelligence, to confuse public opinion and hide their intentions. The speaker notes the increasing importance of accurate human intelligence in this environment.

💡Artificial Intelligence (AI)

AI refers to the development of computer systems that can perform tasks typically requiring human intelligence, such as learning, problem-solving, and decision-making. The video addresses the impact of AI on intelligence services, noting that while AI can augment human judgment, it also poses threats that need to be countered, especially when used unethically by adversaries.

💡Strategic Focus

Strategic focus refers to the prioritization of certain areas or issues that are deemed most critical for achieving long-term goals. In the video, the speaker mentions that MI6 now devotes more resources to China than anywhere else, reflecting the country's increasing global significance and the challenges it poses to international security and stability.

💡Russian Aggression

Russian aggression refers to the actions taken by Russia that violate international law and sovereignty, as seen in the invasion of Ukraine. The video discusses the moral and strategic implications of this aggression and the international community's response, including support for Ukraine's defense and the condemnation of Russia's actions.

💡Ukraine Conflict

The Ukraine conflict refers to the ongoing war between Ukraine and Russia, which began with Russia's annexation of Crimea in 2014 and escalated with a full-scale invasion in 2022. The video addresses the efforts of the UK and its allies to support Ukraine, including intelligence sharing and military aid, and the importance of ending the bloodshed.

💡Data Security

Data security involves the protection of data from unauthorized access, use, disclosure, disruption, modification, or destruction. In the context of the video, the speaker discusses the importance of safeguarding data sovereignty and the risks associated with handing over data to other states, particularly those with different values regarding privacy and data security.

💡Global Coordination

Global coordination refers to the collaborative efforts of countries to address international issues collectively. The video touches on the need for global coordination on the ethical and safe use of AI, emphasizing the potential for shared understanding and cooperation in harnessing AI's benefits while mitigating its risks.

💡Human Agency

Human agency emphasizes the capacity of individuals to act independently and make choices that shape their own lives and the world around them. The speaker argues that preserving human agency is crucial in the development of AI, ensuring that technology serves human values and does not undermine human autonomy and decision-making.

💡Diversity and Inclusion

Diversity and inclusion refer to the practice of involving and respecting a range of different backgrounds, perspectives, and experiences within an organization. The speaker from MI6 discusses the commitment to diversifying the service to better represent the country it serves, enhance creativity, and avoid groupthink, also mentioning the addition of personal pronouns to their Twitter bio as a reflection of this commitment.

Highlights

Recruiting and running agents in the most inhospitable places on Earth is the core business of the British intelligence service.

Courageous individuals from other nations often risk their lives to work with British intelligence, highlighting the importance of trust and empathy in intelligence operations.

Secrecy is crucial in intelligence work, not for its own sake, but to protect agents and the effectiveness of operations.

Russians who disagreed with their government's actions in Prague in 1968 and those today who are appalled by the attack on Ukraine demonstrate the presence of shared human values across national borders.

The British intelligence service is always open to those who wish to join them in their mission for freedom and against oppressive regimes.

The principle of lifelong loyalty and eternal gratitude to agents is a cornerstone of the British intelligence service's operations.

The service's use of AI is to augment human judgment, not replace it, as they work to disrupt the flow of weapons to Russia and other threats.

The human factor in intelligence, characterized by relationships and personal connections, is irreplaceable by AI and remains central to the service's mission.

The British intelligence service is devoting more resources to China than anywhere else due to its increasing global significance.

China's strategy for influence involves active conflicts and weak states, which is evident in its approach to Africa.

The service is concerned about hostile states using AI in damaging, reckless, and unethical ways and aims to understand and counter these threats.

The UK intelligence community has advantages such as creativity, entrepreneurial spirit, democratic values, and leading-edge technology.

The service's mission is to preserve human agency and adapt to harness AI's opportunities while countering its threats.

The UK and its allies are committed to winning the race to master the ethical and safe use of AI, acknowledging the challenges posed by countries with different advantages.

The service's work in AI involves detecting and disrupting the development of AI by adversaries for hostile purposes.

The British intelligence service is focused on supporting Ukraine in its counter-offensive against Russian aggression.

The service encourages Russians disillusioned with Putin's regime to come forward and assist in efforts to end the bloodshed in Ukraine.

The service is vigilant about the potential for escalation from Putin, who is under significant pressure due to the invasion of Ukraine.

Transcripts

recruiting and running those agents in

the toughest and most inhospitable

places on Earth is what we do

that is our Core Business what no one

else in the British government can do

courageous men and women from other

nations choose to make common cause with

us often at immense risk and everything

depends on forging a relationship of

empathy confidence and understanding

we have to maintain secrecy not as an

end in itself but because the lives of

our agents and the effectiveness of our

work depend upon it

and we never forget that the very best

human qualities are found in all nations

there were many Russians in 1968 who saw

the moral travesty of what was being

done here in Prague

they had no wish to be on the wrong side

of History

and the bravest of them acted on their

convictions by throwing in their lot

with us as partners for freedom

there are many Russians today who are

silently appalled by the sight of their

Armed Forces pulverizing Ukrainian

cities expelling innocent families from

their homes and kidnapping thousands of

children

they are watching in horror as their

soldiers ravage a kindred country

they know in their hearts that Putin's

case for attacking a fellow Slavic

nation is fraudulent a miasma of lies

and fantasy

one architect of that Onslaught yevgeny

pragosian demolished the whole charade

in a single sentence when he said and I

quote

the war was needed for shoigu to receive

a hero star the oligarchic clan that

rules Russia needed the war

he added and I stressed these were his

words not mine

the mentally ill scumbags decided it's

okay we'll throw in a few thousand more

Russian men as cannon fodder they'll die

under artillery fire but we'll get what

we want

a few hours after saying that bregozian

was marching on Moscow leading a mutiny

which exposed the inexorable decay of

the unstable autocracy over which Putin

presides

as they witnessed the venality

infighting and sheer callous

incompetence of their leaders the human

factor at its worst many Russians are

wrestling with the same dilemmas and the

same tugs of conscience as their

predecessors did in 1968.

I invite them to do what others have

already done this past 18 months and

join hands with us

our door is always open

we will handle their offers of help with

the discretion and professionalism for

which my service is famed

their secrets will always be safe with

us

and together we will work to bring the

Bloodshed to an end

my service lives by the principle that

our loyalty to our agents is lifelong

and our gratitude

eternal

one of my earlier acts as C

was to repatriate the ashes of a woman

who had died just after turning a

hundred

having worked for sis by penetrating

German intelligence the adver in Lisbon

in 1944.

she was codenamed ecclesiastic

and in her retirement generations of MI6

officers helped to look after her

we have a picture of her photographing

what was ostensibly a British Top Secret

document in a deception operation that

successfully fooled the German High

command

nearly 80 years later

we gathered in honor of ecclesiastic to

scatter her ashes in the English Channel

within sight of where the Allied Fleet

sailed from Portsmouth to liberate

Europe and end a catastrophic conflict

in the same way today's ruinous war will

only truly end when a sovereign Ukraine

lives in Freedom

to bring forward that moment Ukraine's

armed forces are now on the offensive

demonstrating their astonishing ability

to innovate and mobilize new technology

last summer at the Aspen security

conference I noted that the Russian

effort appeared to be running out of

steam

it was and there appears now to be

little Prospect of the Russian forces

regaining momentum

in the last month Ukraine has liberated

more territory than Russia captured in

the last year

at this moment in the conflict it's even

more vital for Ukraine's friends to

press on and sustain their support so

that Ukrainian Valor on the battlefield

continues to find its counterpart in the

enduring will of Allied countries

to arm provision and train them for as

long as it takes to quote the emphatic

communique of the NATO Summit in Vilnius

some Nations by contrast have reduced

themselves to being accomplices of the

aggressor

Iran's decision to supply Russia with

the suicide drones that meet out random

destruction to Ukraine cities has

provoked internal quarrels at the

highest level of the regime in Tehran

and so it should because that decision

was unconscionable

Iran seeks cash by selling arms to

Russia to enable them to kill Ukrainian

soldiers and civilians Russia in turn

seeks cash by Hawking their mercenaries

around Africa in some African nations

burdened by Civil War poverty and a weak

State Russia has offered a 21st century

version of a Faustian Pact

the essential bargain is that Wagner

mercenaries will keep the government of

that country in power provided that it

signs over to Russia or to Russian

individuals privilege rights to its

people's mineral wealth the leaders of

the Central African Republic were the

first to strike this deal followed by

the military regime in Mali

and others perhaps the contenders for

power in Sudan or the new rulers of

Burkina Faso may be next

but now they've had to watch the very

mercenaries who they are supposed to

trust turning against their ultimate

Patron Vladimir Putin and bearing down

on Moscow if Russian mercenaries can

betray Putin who else might they betray

if they can advance on Moscow what other

capitals might they threaten

and what if pregosian was right when he

said this about Russia's policy in

Africa we were told that Africa was

needed and after that it was abandoned

because all the money that was intended

for Aid was stolen

the truth is that Russia has no interest

in peace or stability in African

countries on the contrary its strategy

for influence requires active conflicts

and weak states which the Kremlin views

as targets to be controlled and

exploited in a new Russian imperialism

yet for all the immediate challenges

posed by Putin's aggression Russia is

not the single most important strategic

focus of my service

we now devote more resources to China

than anywhere else reflecting China's

increasing Global significance

as the foreign secretary has said in

April

Britain will robustly defend our

national security and values but at the

same time it's absolutely necessary to

engage with China for the simple reason

that not a single International problem

of any importance can be addressed if we

do not

we have watched China steadily expand

its influence in contested Spaces by

offering countries ambitious deals

that look too good to be true and

frequently turn out to be exactly that

for example control of data is vital for

National sovereignty governments have a

duty to safeguard the data generated by

their citizens

and by national projects whether in

health or infrastructure

if you hand over your data to another

state you risk ensnaring yourself in a

data trap that will dilute your

sovereignty and leave you vulnerable

when China was selling covered vaccines

around the world it often ensured that

recipient countries would have to share

their vaccination data sets with Beijing

that is exactly the kind of condition in

any deal which should ring alarm Bells

authoritarian regimes try to hide their

intentions in contested spaces within a

blizzard of propaganda and

disinformation

they are increasingly doing this with

the aid of artificial intelligence which

is opening up vast new terrains for fake

news blurring the distinction between

fantasy and reality

this brings me back to the Core Business

of my service in a world Evermore Awash

with disinformation and fakery the

premium on discovering the truth with

accurate verified reporting from Human

agents and Technical operations will be

even greater

AI is going to make information

infinitely more accessible and some have

asked whether it will put intelligent

services like mine out of business

in fact the opposite is likely to be

true as AI trolls the ocean of Open

Source there will be ever greater value

in landing with a well-cast fly the

secrets that lie beyond the reach of its

Nets the unique characteristics of human

agents in the right places will become

still more significant

they are never just passive collectors

of information our agents can be tasked

and directed they can identify new

questions we didn't know to ask and

sometimes they can influence decisions

inside a government or terrorist group

human intelligence in the age of

artificial intelligence will

increasingly be defined as those things

that machines cannot do

albeit we should expect the frontiers of

machine capability to advance with

startling speed

my teams are now using AI to augment but

not replace their own judgment about how

people might act in various situations

they're combining their skills with AI

and bulk data to identify and disrupt

the flow of weapons to Russia for use

against Ukraine

in future as AI begins to overtake some

aspects of human cognition it's possible

that digital tools may come to

understand or rather to be able to

predict human behavior better than

humans can but there will always be an

extraordinary bond that allows one

person genuinely to confide in another

United by a sense of common humanity and

purpose the essence of the human factor

hoverswift and all-encompassing the

advance of AI some relationships are

going to stay uniquely stubbornly human

and those relationships are at the heart

of my service because my agency is

dedicated to preserving human agency

so what we do is going to remain vital

but how we do it must continually adapt

to harness ai's burgeoning opportunities

and counter its threats

I expect that we will increasingly be

tasked with obtaining Intelligence on

how hostile states are using AI in

damaging Reckless and unethical ways I

know that we can only protect our

citizens if we understand the essence of

the threat

while embracing ai's undoubted potential

for good

so let me say with Clarity and

conviction my service together with our

allies intends to win the race to master

the ethical and safe use of AI

it's true that other countries have

inherent advantages which we will never

be able to match or would never wish to

China benefits from sheer scale AI in

its current form requires colossal

volumes of data the more data you have

the more rapidly you can teach machine

learning tools

China has added to its immense data sets

at home by hoovering up others abroad

and the Chinese authorities are not

hugely troubled by questions of personal

privacy or individual data security

they are focused on controlling

information and preventing inconvenient

truths from being revealed

but speaking for the United Kingdom

intelligence Community we have

advantages too our people inspired by

their mission our values entrepreneurial

and Democratic our technology ingenious

and Leading Edge are Partnerships based

on friendship not transactions all

combining to maximize our creativity

we cannot in all honesty be sure where

the advance of AI will take us

but we can strike out in a spirit of

optimism with a willingness to cooperate

and I remain hopeful that our common

humanity and our shared interest in

understanding the power of AI May yet

lead to agreement on global coordination

on which our prime minister Rishi sunak

is leading the way

China's draft AI regulations emphasize

the importance of veracity accuracy

objectivity and diversity I can only say

we agree

let's make those fine words a reality

not a slogan

for our part sis is fortunate to serve a

country with a greater concentration of

tech companies world-class universities

and research centers than anywhere else

in Europe

and this is where all three societies

and the agencies that protect them enjoy

the biggest inherent advantage of all

through openness debate and the dynamic

exchange of ideas we excel at liberating

the talents of our people

because as John Stuart Mill said genius

can only breathe freely in an atmosphere

of freedom

the Czech people showed 55 years ago

that nothing can ever suppress humanity

and freedom which together bestow a

unique Competitive Edge and our duty is

to make the most of it thank you

[Applause]

thank you

we have a marvelous high tech pause just

uh now because we are going to debilt

the lectern avoid the piano and I'm

going to sit down to interview Richard

so if you just tweet along and give us

half a minute or so to do that thank you

difference

between

a quick decision

talk about your experiences of the 1968

and 1989 and of course here in this

setting in Prague brings me as someone

who is here at the time in 89 I was a

very young journalist obviously but uh

one of the things that I suppose I've

reflected on coming back now is that

that was a moment of Great Hope 1968

which you also shows as your starting

point was a moment when there appeared

to be the hope of Reform communism in

that period of course both of those

things in a sense led to different kinds

of

disappointments and challenges so what

do you make of the significance of the

city when you walk these wonderful

cobbled stones and your memories come

back

well I mean you're right aren't you that

um the Prague spring was a full storm

um and it and the the real Dawn came a

generation later I I accept that I think

um the reason for I mean I was coming to

Prague anyhow uh because uh I wanted to

visit and we have

um extraordinarily good close

Partnerships with uh with our Czech

friends here but when we were thinking

about me coming here it seemed a very

good place to speak about Ukraine in

particular and because the parallels are

so strong aren't they this is the last

European country to see Russian tanks

rolling across its border that is where

Ukraine finds itself and as I try to set

out in the speech the crushing of the

Prague spring was a very important

moment for for my service for MI6 in our

history because

several Russians decided that that was

the that was the breaking point for them

the point of which they decided to move

against their own system them and they

came to us and offered to help and so

I'm for both those parallels it seemed a

really appropriate place to come and

talk about these issues we might delve

into that offer that you've you've made

it's disaffected with the Putin regime

to to call call a number

um or or get in in touch in just a

moment but I'd like to just start by

your assessment on Ukraine and the

counter-offensive now it is preceding I

think even according to those who are

very supportive of Ukraine with

difficulty and slowly it's a massively

difficult thing to to take back uh

territory in those circumstances against

Russian forces we see drone attacks

stepping up Politico has reported a

massive impending attack in kharkiv by

Russia why are you so confident of the

chances of Ukraine

prevailing and in what sort of time

frame are you thinking that we could

really see a breakthrough

well it's a it's a hard grind and uh you

know Ukrainian uh officials and Military

uh don't shy away from that we don't you

know that is very clear and the Russians

have had a chance to put in defenses

which are very tough to overcome but I I

do return to that point uh I made

um that even though Ukrainian commanders

rather in rather stark contrast to their

Russian counterparts uh want to preserve

the lives of their troops and therefore

move with due uh caution they have still

made more recovered more territory in a

month than the Russians managed to

achieve in a year so I do remain uh

optimistic about it I think the resolve

to support the ukrainians is as strong

as it ever was and therefore you know

our job is to focus on why we're all

doing this we're doing this because

Putin launched a war of aggression on

Ukraine over a year and a half ago and

actually if you think about it if you

think back to February 2022 the idea

that you and Ian would be discussed

discussing not not just the first but

the second offensive mounted by the

ukrainians would have seen for the birds

and so I think they've done remarkably

well one has to put it in proper context

but I think I do remain optimistic do

you mean when you when you talk about

Ukraine prevailing what you and your

service is supporting do you mean

regaining all of its territory including

to pre-2014 including Crimea well most

uh conflicts end in some kind of

negotiation it is for Ukraine to define

the terms of Peace not us our job is to

try and put them in the strongest

possible position and to negotiate from

from a position of strength and that's

what we're intent on doing

can you shed any light on the level of

support that the UK and its allies are

giving Ukraine in the way of

intelligence I know you're not going to

do massive detail here but whether I

think there are concerns it is really

the use of intelligence to support

potential attacks now according to the

the Kremlin which has been very much uh

you know on his high horse about this

week uh not least after the the attack

on the bridge at the Kirch Straits is

that this intelligence which is being

then used to Target Russian assets

including they would say in Russian or

Russian Hill territory is coming from

British and American intelligence and

that risks escalation what's your

response well it's very flattering

um that President Putin thinks that my

service is behind all of this but it's

it's really

um a bit more prosaic you know we have

been very clear the UK has been very

clear that we will support the Ukraine

to defend itself and that's what we're

doing it is

um it is Putin who has invaded Ukraine

they are absolutely right to exercise

their right of self-defense and it's

absolutely clear that we will help them

through both provision of military

material but also in any other way to

try and recover their territory that

they've lost

we've seen the aborted Rebellion by the

Wagner group the confusion about the

status of yevgeni pregosian and this

sort of on off relationship with

Vladimir Putin and possibly a deal with

Belarus I mean what could talk of war in

the great old Russian saying I think

it's Len in that one isn't it who whom

who's got power over whom how are you

reading it

well it is an extraordinary set of

events at the end of the day what goes

on inside Russia is um is up to the

Russians and down to the Russians but I

have to say that day that we saw that

that particular Saturday when pragosan

made his move uh his sort of extended

road trip through rostov and and

approaching Moscow it was extraordinary

if you if you look at Putin's behaviors

on that day

pregosian started off I think as a

traitor at breakfast he had been

pardoned by supper and then a few days

later he was invited for tea so there

are some things and that even the chief

of MI6 finds it a little bit difficult

to try and interpret in terms of who's

in and who's out it would help if you

had sources in the Wagner group do you

uh so I obviously don't talk about uh

where we have sources but

um I don't think it was a particular

surprise was it when pagosian made his

mood he had been telegraphing uh with

pretty violent language his disaffection

with uh shoigu and garasimov the defense

minister and the chief of general staff

of Russia and so when he finally blew

his top and made his move it wasn't that

much of a surprise it also I would say

is a real indication of how

Putin can't contain uh the impact of his

invasion of Ukraine within the borders

of Ukraine and what we're seeing here is

if you like the instability caused by

the appalling casualties that the

Russians are suffering on the

battlefield sort of bleeding back into

the Russian body politic in a in a

potentially destabilizing so how do you

assess Putin's state of mind I mean you

said this is mysterious uh ocean to and

for even to you but you must look very

closely and be well informed at least

through through your secret operatives

of the the perception of Putin's State

of Mind you everyone remembers that

story he tells himself about you know

fighting the cornered rats and rat

Corners him and he he fights back

the doubt I suppose that raises for a

lot of people is like are you dealing

with someone who is either desperate or

you know to to use the sort of common

language about it a bit mad and prepared

to go all the way to hang on to power

how do you assess him

well I I think we are reasonably well

placed as as we were able to demonstrate

in the run-up to the war

he is clearly Under Pressure you don't

have a a group of mercenaries Advance up

the motorway towards Moscow and get to

within 125 kilometers of Moscow unless

you have not quite predicted that was

going to happen so I I think he probably

feels under some pressure

um pregosian was his creature

um utterly created by Putin and yet he

turned on him yeah we're sorry just move

it along a bit we kind of know that yeah

he's we're informed as such but the

question is what is his State of Mind as

you understand it and do you believe

that the to the point about the danger

of escalation that you might be actually

dealing with someone who is prepared to

go on and do Unthinkable things and

obviously the nuclear question hovers

over this

because he fights Mackie fought back

hard against pregosian whatever you know

whatever the deal he's still there he's

still in the Kremlin what's he thinking

and he he really didn't fight back

against purgation he cut a deal to save

his skin using the good officers of the

uh of the leader of of Belarus so

even I can't see inside uh Putin's um

head but uh the the only person who has

been I'd say well the only people who

have been talking about escalation and

nuclear weapons are Putin and a handful

of henchmen around him that is

irresponsible it's Reckless and it is

designed to to try and weaken our

resolve in supporting Ukraine and it

will not work and I was really

encouraged and you will have seen this

as well to see a group of senior

Russians and academics sort of push back

against some of this ridiculous and

dangerous rhetoric now your message to

those who will be having doubts about

Putin at a senior level possibly inside

the intelligence community in Russia's

come to us come to MI6 now the the

that's a an open-handed offer I suppose

it's always there from intelligence

services that you know I got rip memos

and Marcus wolf on the other side and

it's always a push and pull of who can

attract each other's assets or turn

agents or get new sources but you know

there's also a kind of elephant in the

room here and some people would say well

you know what like Sergey scripo that

didn't go so well you said in your

speech that this was a lifelong

commitment to those who came to work

with you and the secrets would be be

safe but what would you say to those who

say well in some circumstances that has

not turned out to be easy to deliver on

the truth is that people continue to

come to us and and uh of course induce

in doing so they they take risk but as I

articulated to you we look after the

people who come and work with us and of

course our successes are never known

well can you just give us a sense of the

scale of your successes even if this is

your moment to make them a bit more

known are you seeing a pattern of people

coming to you who may be in any sort of

numbers who would not have done so

before the invasion of uh Ukraine I I

use that parallel with the crushing of

the Prague spring advisedly because now

is a time where we are seeing Russians

who are totally appalled by what they're

seeing done in their name in the Ukraine

and therefore it's a moment where people

are looking to come and help us and

there's nothing to do about what's going

on in Russia what happens in Russia is

is down to Russians ultimately but what

they can do is to help us to bring the

Bloodshed in Ukraine to an end by

helping us to support the UK and you're

sure you can protect them or the

security services of course also am I

fat can protect them that that is our

secret trust if uh you know if we could

not do that we would go out of business

and I can assure you and we are very

much in business

we have a question from our fans and

colleagues in Berlin there's been a

major leak from the German intelligence

service the the BND that was a very

senior level and someone has been being

arrested and that is under investigation

by the German authorities does this make

British and American intelligence less

confident in their willingness to share

information with other intelligence

Services even among allies who are

crucial in this period like Germany

well I think

perhaps my worst nightmare would be to

wake up one morning and and find that we

had a traitor inside sis we've been

there before in the 1950s and 1960s with

philby and blunt

Etc and it is hugely damaging so my

my first reaction when these things

happen is to feel some empathy for the

situation of my partner and to support

them because I hope that's how they

would act towards us so

um you know that that's the approach I

take on this the German intelligence

service are outstanding partners of ours

and we continue to work extremely uh

well with I think the concern is more

broadly is about the degree of sympathy

for ongoing sympathy for Russia in

certain parts of German institutional

life I think isn't that the sort of

sense of that question as well I don't

detect it and uh it's it's easy to

forget because we move on too quickly

perhaps sometimes just what a profound

move in German foreign and defense

policy happened post the invasion of

Ukraine and I see that manifested in the

approach of their intelligence Services

let's move on to to China and AI which I

definitely want to to cover you with the

use of radio is it's good to be a bit

it's a bit quick fire

um the UK's parliamentary intelligence

and security Committee reported only

last week on Chinese interference and

influence in the UK and issued pretty

damning verdict UK it said had no

strategy to tackle beijing's growing

threat to the country's commercial

academic and National Security well

that's quite a lot isn't it in your

first speech in post you said that China

was the single greatest priority for MI6

and you warned about miscalculation that

over uh confidence in dealings with

Beijing and and of course the living a

threat of a possible invasion of Taiwan

put these things together it does look a

bit like the UK authorities are not only

the UK have been a bit asleep at the

wheel on China your thoughts well the

the intelligence Services committee the

independent scrutiny Committee of

Parliament that oversees our work a key

difference between us and uh and say the

Chinese service is has produced a really

comprehensive thorough report and it

deserves a proper full response and

it'll get that from the government in in

due course I I would just repeat what I

said and you just said back to me that

we now devote more resources to China

than any other mission that reflects

China's importance in the world and the

and the The crucial need to understand

both the intent and capability of the

Chinese government so you know from our

perspective it feels to me that we are

very much awake at the wheel on China

pieces of into related threats the

linkage of China with Russia but also

Iran they're they're kind of in in the

mix as effectively as a supporter of

disruption to the Western system I think

views vary on how much to take these uh

States these big big autocratic States

separately or how much you believe in a

modern if I can bring back an old phrase

the Access of Evil perhaps with 30

different players

well those three countries are sort of

pushing themselves together it's not

like anybody else is pushing them

together and Iran has chosen to uh

presumably to earn cash as well as

probably to receive some military uh

know-how in return to support the

Russians the Chinese have lent very

heavily in support of Russia since the

outset of Ukraine despite the fact that

of course in his invasion of Ukraine

Putin tramples over two really critical

International

principles those of uh National

sovereignty and those of territorial

Integrity which the Chinese government

proclaims to be ones that it believes in

and yet very clearly it's taken the side

of Russia so I it you know this is

happening because uh I think

particularly in the case of Russia and

Iran they're kind of running out of

options so the the main option for them

is to go running to Beijing I think the

online things Beach life are very

interesting having sort of seen things

that one didn't think could sort of fall

apart fall apart both for good and Ill

is fragility do you believe the

Communist Party of China itself is

fragile do you think in in uh anything

that we can predict we might actually

see a real challenge to the Communist

party is the central organizing

principle

well China is a an extraordinarily

complex complicated uh country it's a

country of course with a fantastic

history and culture

um and we will continue to to monitor it

closely as I say it's a thing we devote

more uh effort to than any other and we

will look across the range of factors

around China but in particular you know

we do that because the UK wants to

defend its values and interests and

where they collide with uh with China we

want to be in the best possible position

to defend those interests and values

you've made a strong claim this morning

about values in Superior values there

will be of course those who say well the

UK and other Western countries is be

careful to take the moral High Ground

given it is welcomed Russian money and

influence into the economy it's left

behind unstable regimes in botch

campaigns in Iraq and was a part of

course led by the Americans are rather

chaotic departure from of Afghanistan I

mean what makes you feel that you can

say with confidence about people sort of

calling you out for hypocrisy or just

cherry picking that the ethics and

values that MI6 stand for are reflected

in broader outcomes

the values uh that we hold in MI6 are

absolutely core to our sense of

ourselves they're core to the

extraordinary men and women who work for

for my service so I'm never going to

apologize for

um talking about the importance of those

to our work but it's certainly important

to come back and to

um you know what we are talking about

here we're talking about a wholesale Act

of aggression against a European country

in breach of international law

accompanied by the most appalling Litany

of atrocities and in humanity and we

really ought to be focusing I think on

that and the other threats that uh

opposed just just a a last thought to

you I know you've committed very much to

diversification of the service you've

supported that in terms of having many

many more senior senior women and you've

been visited very clearly that you want

to see a lot of people come to the the

service who maybe don't think that it

would be the right place them I notice

also you've added he him to your Twitter

bio or someone has

why have you done that when a lot of

people are quite skeptical of officials

raising into pronoun Wars I suppose I'm

asking if MI6 has gone a bit woke

uh I can say to you very comprehensively

that MI6 doesn't do culture wars and but

what I do want is for my service to

better represent the country we serve

that's a noble aim in my view but it's

also an intensely practical thing

diversity brings greater creativity

better problem solving all the things

that we know very clearly in the

literature that brings and particularly

for

around issues around group think it's a

known risk for an intelligence

intelligence service so it's very

powerful and then if you add a rather

obvious point that if you have offices

of ethnic minority they might just give

you some cultural Insight that you might

otherwise lack as well as perhaps not

looking like me

um on the streets of uh of um uh other

some other parts of the world

um but I just wanted to say if I may on

the AI side of things because I didn't

pick that up from your last question so

I want to say this there is obviously an

application for us in our business

around Ai and I can give you a sort of

simple use case you know one of our jobs

is to sift through data and find people

who might help us of the type I was

describing it AI will undoubtedly help

with that but far more important to me

is that there's absolutely no doubt that

some of our adversaries will be prepared

to develop AI in ways which are Reckless

and dangerous you spoke about nuclear

rhetoric earlier on and that worries us

and therefore it will be a significant

part of our role going forward into the

future to try and uncover and you know

detect uncover and then disrupt people

who would like to develop AI in in

directions fighting fire with fire on

the AI front no I not at all I think

it's that point I made in the speech the

about the human factor it's really

important that we work to preserve human

agency over the technologies that we're

developing and not all actors out there

may approach this with the same degree

of responsibility that that we in the UK

do or people in this room might

thank you Mr Richard and to our guests

here in Prague for this exclusive

Politico event uh we'll say goodbye now

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goodbye from us

thank you

thank you everybody