How the porn industry targets children – Julie Bindel & Pala Molisa | Action Men

Summary

In this episode of 'Action Men', Julie Bindel engages in a thought-provoking conversation with Pala H., a retrained Body Mind therapist and former accounting PhD, about the intersection of feminism, sexual exploitation, and the sex trade. Pala shares her experiences growing up in a politically active family in Vanuatu and her observations on the erasure of early radical feminist critiques. They discuss the impact of pornography on young minds, the business model of the porn industry, and the importance of addressing the darker aspects of patriarchal culture. The conversation emphasizes the need for intergenerational dialogue within feminism and the challenge of bridging the gap between different feminist perspectives.

Takeaways

• 🎧 The impact of the sex trade on young minds is a concern, with the industry targeting children to secure lifelong customers.
• 🌍 Pala Melisa's background in accounting for sustainable development and retraining in Body Mind therapy shaped her views on sexual exploitation.
• 📚 The importance of radical honesty in personal lives is emphasized as a feminist principle, connecting the personal to the political.
• 👩‍💼 Pala's mother was an advocate for women's rights in Banatu, influencing her understanding of the intersection of feminism and decolonization.
• 📖 Pala's essay on breaking the silence on prostitution and rape culture highlighted the role of racism, colonialism, and imperialism in the sex trade.
• 🎓 The erasure of early radical critiques of patriarchal culture in academia is a concern for Pala, who seeks to bring these discussions back to light.
• 🧠 The powerful influence of sexual drives on human psychology makes the shaping of young minds by pornography particularly concerning.
• 💰 The business model of big porn companies is likened to that of tobacco, aiming to create lifelong, dependent customers.
• 🔄 The dopamine cycle and addiction are key factors in the escalation of pornography consumption, leading to a demand for more extreme content.
• 🚫 The public discourse on these issues is often hindered by shame and blame, rather than constructive conversation and understanding.
• 🌈 The need for unity and dialogue within the feminist movement across generations and ideologies is emphasized to address current power structures effectively.

Q & A

What is the main argument presented about the business model of big porn companies?

The main argument is that big porn companies target children's minds during their formative years, specifically between the ages of four and adolescence, to shape their sexual preferences and ensure lifelong loyalty as customers. This is likened to the strategies used by the tobacco and tech industries.

How does the guest, Pala, connect her personal background to her views on feminism and sexual exploitation?

Pala's mother was a vocal advocate for women's rights and was part of the leadership that took Vanuatu to independence. Pala grew up witnessing her mother's struggle against patriarchy and the marginalization of women in politics, which influenced her understanding of feminism and the need to challenge sexual exploitation and discrimination.

What is the significance of the term 'radical honesty' in the context of the conversation?

Radical honesty is significant as it refers to the need for open and candid discussions about sensitive topics like sexual exploitation and discrimination. It emphasizes the importance of being truthful in both personal and political realms to effectively address and combat these issues.

How does the essay written by Pala in 2015 contribute to the conversation on prostitution and rape culture?

Pala's essay contributes by highlighting the elements of racism, colonialism, and imperialism inherent in the system of prostitution. It critiques the left for not addressing the abuse and exploitation of women of color, Indigenous women, and black women within the sex trade, pointing out the need for a more inclusive and intersectional approach to feminism.

What is the 'dopamine cycle' mentioned in the discussion, and how does it relate to pornography consumption?

The 'dopamine cycle' refers to the neurological process where dopamine, a neurotransmitter associated with pleasure and reward, is released in response to stimuli. In the context of pornography, it suggests that as consumers become desensitized to certain content, they seek out more degrading and violent forms of pornography to maintain the same level of excitement, thus creating a cycle of addiction.

How does the concept of 'cultural amnesia' apply to the erasure of early radical critiques of patriarchal culture?

Cultural amnesia describes the phenomenon where significant historical critiques and intellectual contributions, such as those from first-generation radical feminists, are forgotten or overlooked over time. This leads to a lack of awareness and understanding of the roots and evolution of feminist thought, which can hinder progress in addressing current societal issues.

What is the main criticism of public discourse on topics like sexual exploitation and pornography?

The main criticism is that public discourse is often built on the politics of shame and blame, which is counterproductive. It is argued that effective communication requires understanding and acknowledging each other's common humanity, rather than demonizing or shaming those with differing views.

What does Pala suggest as a solution to the disconnect between different generations of feminists?

Pala suggests that there should be a concerted effort to bring different generations of feminists together for open and honest dialogue. This includes recognizing the unique experiences and perspectives of younger women, while also acknowledging the historical context and contributions of older feminists.

How does Pala propose engaging young men in the conversation about women's liberation and male violence?

Pala proposes that engagement should start by entering the world of young men and building trust, rather than immediately asking them to adopt a political stance. By genuinely getting to know them and their experiences, a more authentic and empowering dialogue can be fostered.

What is the key message Pala wants to convey about the role of agency and choice in the context of the sex trade?

Pala emphasizes the importance of recognizing the agency and choices individuals exercise, while also challenging the notion that freedom and choice can emerge from lives heavily restricted by social class, racism, and patriarchy. She argues that both perspectives are necessary for a comprehensive understanding of the issues.

How does the conversation address the issue of ideological infighting within feminist movements?

The conversation points out that ideological infighting and the inability to connect across different factions of feminism can be detrimental to the movement. It calls for a conscious effort to address biases and work towards unity in the face of common goals, such as dismantling patriarchy.

Outlines

00:00

🌟 Introduction to the Conversation on Feminism and Sex Trade

The video script begins with a discussion on the overlooked aspects of the sex trade, particularly by the left, and highlights the business model of major porn companies. The introduction of the guest, Pala Melisa, is made, setting the stage for a deep dive into the intersection of feminism, sex trade, and the societal impact. Pala shares her background, emphasizing the importance of personal honesty and emotional work in aligning with feminist principles.

05:01

📚 Historical Context and the Erasure of Radical Feminism

This paragraph delves into the historical context of feminism, noting the cycles of consciousness raising and societal breakthroughs, followed by conservative backlash and cultural amnesia. The speaker reflects on the erasure of early radical critiques of patriarchal culture, especially within the context of the Pacific and the impact of political shifts on intellectual climates. The discussion also touches on the role of media and technology in shaping sexual psychology and the formation of addictions, particularly in young people.

10:02

🚀 The Porn Industry's Business Model and its Impact

The conversation shifts to the business model of the porn industry, which targets young minds to ensure a customer base for life. The paragraph discusses the role of dopamine in forming addictions and the industry's strategy of escalating content to maintain consumer interest. The impact of this model on sexual expectations and the normalization of violence and degradation is critiqued. The discussion references Gail Dines' work on 'Pornland' and her insights into the industry's focus on profit over sexual health.

15:02

💡 Addressing the Taboos and the Role of Public Discourse

This paragraph addresses the challenges in public discourse around sensitive topics like the sex trade, highlighting the issues with shame and blame politics. The speaker advocates for a nuanced approach that acknowledges individual agency while critiquing structural inequalities. The conversation touches on the need for intergenerational dialogue within feminism and the importance of recognizing the diversity of experiences and perspectives within the movement.

20:03

🌐 The State of Contemporary Feminism and the Need for Unity

The discussion moves to the current state of feminism, reflecting on the strengths and weaknesses of different waves of feminist thought. The speaker calls for a unification of efforts across generations and ideologies to effectively challenge patriarchal structures. The paragraph emphasizes the need for direct critique of power, recognition of multiplicity, and a focus on the基层 rather than just the glass ceiling. The importance of intergenerational dialogue and understanding is reiterated, with a desire for a collective feminist movement that is inclusive and forward-thinking.

25:05

📢 Engaging Men in the Conversation on Women's Liberation

The final paragraph focuses on the importance of involving men in the conversation about women's liberation. The speaker discusses strategies for effective communication with young men, emphasizing the need to meet them where they are rather than imposing preconceived political notions. The paragraph highlights the value of understanding and empathy in building a truly inclusive and empowering movement for gender equality.

Keywords

💡Sex trade

The term 'sex trade' refers to the industry involving sexual services, such as prostitution and pornography. In the video, it is discussed as a system that is often exploitative and harmful, particularly to women and children. The speaker criticizes the left for not addressing the darker aspects of this industry, including its role in shaping the sexual preferences of young minds and the perpetuation of harmful stereotypes and behaviors.

💡Feminism

Feminism is a social and political movement that advocates for gender equality and challenges the patriarchal structures that perpetuate discrimination and inequality against women. In the video, the speaker reflects on the evolution of feminism through different waves, emphasizing the need for a direct critique of patriarchy and structural inequality, as well as recognizing the multiplicity and cultural diversity within the movement.

💡Prostitution

Prostitution refers to the exchange of sexual services for money or goods. In the context of the video, it is portrayed as a form of sexual exploitation and a component of the sex trade that is oppressive and unacceptable. The speaker argues that prostitution is linked to broader issues of inequality, racism, and colonialism, and criticizes the lack of discussion on these topics within certain feminist and political circles.

💡Pornography

Pornography is the portrayal of sexual subject matter intended to arouse. In the video, it is discussed as a form of sexual exploitation that contributes to the normalization of harmful sexual behaviors and the commodification of women's bodies. The speaker highlights the business model of the porn industry, which targets young minds to establish a lifelong customer base through the promotion of addictive and increasingly violent content.

💡Sexual exploitation

Sexual exploitation refers to the abuse of a person's sexuality or sexual identity, often for the benefit of others. In the video, it is used to describe the practices within the sex trade, including prostitution and pornography, which take advantage of individuals, particularly women and children, for financial or sexual gain.

💡Radical honesty

Radical honesty is the practice of being completely truthful and transparent in one's communication, even when it is difficult or uncomfortable. In the video, it is presented as a crucial element in political discourse and personal relationships, particularly when discussing sensitive topics like sexual exploitation and discrimination.

💡Dopamine cycle

The dopamine cycle refers to the neurological process where dopamine, a neurotransmitter associated with pleasure and reward, is released in response to certain stimuli, creating a cycle of addiction and desire for more intense experiences. In the video, it is used to explain how the porn industry keeps consumers engaged by escalating the intensity of content, leading to a cycle of addiction.

💡Cultural amnesia

Cultural amnesia is the phenomenon where a society collectively forgets or ignores its history, particularly the parts that are uncomfortable or contradictory to its current identity or values. In the video, it is discussed in the context of the erasure of early radical critiques of patriarchal culture, which have been largely forgotten in contemporary political and academic discourse.

💡Decolonization

Decolonization is the process of undoing or dismantling the political, economic, and cultural systems and structures that were established during colonial rule. In the video, the speaker's personal experience with their mother's involvement in the decolonization struggle in Vanuatu is shared, highlighting the challenges faced by women in maintaining their roles and rights after political independence.

💡Accountability

Accountability refers to the responsibility one has to explain and justify their actions, especially in legal, political, or moral contexts. In the video, the speaker discusses the importance of holding individuals and systems accountable for their actions and decisions, particularly in the context of sexual exploitation and violence, while also recognizing the complexities of agency and choice.

💡Cancel culture

Cancel culture refers to the practice of publicly calling out and boycotting individuals or entities deemed to have done something offensive or harmful, often leading to their social or professional ostracization. In the video, the speaker reflects on their own experiences with cancel culture, noting the challenges it poses to open dialogue and the potential for it to stifle important conversations within activist communities.

Highlights

The discussion focuses on the overlooked aspects of the sex trade and its impact on society, particularly on young minds.

The business model of big porn companies is likened to that of tobacco, targeting young minds for lifelong customer loyalty.

The importance of radical honesty in personal lives is emphasized as a feminist principle.

The guest, Pala, shares her journey from accounting for sustainable development to body-mind therapy and psychosomatics.

Pala's mother was a vocal advocate for women's rights and witnessed the marginalization of women in politics post-independence.

The essay by Pala on breaking the silence on prostitution and rape culture addresses the intersectionality of racism, colonialism, and imperialism in the sex trade.

Pala discusses the erasure of early radical critiques of patriarchal culture in academic and political spheres.

The role of pornography in shaping the sexual psychology of young people is explored, including the dopamine cycle and addiction.

The book 'Pornland' by Gail Dines is mentioned, which outlines the business model of the porn industry as being about money, not sex.

The impact of pornography on men who commit sexual assault is discussed, with one inmate claiming he was 'groomed' by porn.

The public discourse is criticized for being built on shame and blame, rather than constructive conversation.

Pala reflects on her own communication style and the importance of recognizing people's sovereignty and free choice.

Feminism is discussed as a political movement with its strengths and blind spots across different waves.

The need for intergenerational dialogue within feminism is emphasized to address biases and connect different factions.

The challenge of engaging young men in the struggle for women's liberation is addressed, with a call for understanding their perspectives.

Pala suggests connecting with young people by entering their world, rather than asking them to step into ours.

The importance of acknowledging the reality and conclusions of younger generations in building an inclusive empowering movement is highlighted.

Transcripts

there is this complete other side to the

Sixx trade that the left is still not

looking

[Music]

at the business model of a lot of these

big porn companies if you can get a

kid's mind between four and Adolescence

you've got a customer for life this is

how they hook the kids

in hello I'm Julie bindle and this is

action men a series in which I have

interesting conversations with men that

actually get up off their backsides and

contribute to the work that feminists

are doing to prevent rape domestic

violence and challenge pornography and

the sex trade my guest for this week is

Pala Melisa I read an article he'd

written where he described prostitution

as oppressive and unacceptable and for

that he was roundly punished here is

Pala H it's so good to speak to you it's

been a long time since we last had a

conversation and I'd just love you to

tell everyone who you are and how you

got to where you are today well I'm from

vanu I've lived in New Zealand

for um most of my life I did my PhD in

accounting for sustainable development

and then in 2018 I ended up retraining

in Body Mind therapy

psychosomatics and you know Julie we

talk about the importance of um radical

honesty in in the political realm when

it comes to dealing with topics like

sexual exploitation and discrimination

and

inequality the thing I realized in 2018

was it's in some ways even more primary

to have that Honesty in our own personal

lives I mean really that's been the

feminist injunction to make the personal

the personal is the

political um I had to come to that

realization the hard way by going

through

gal um but it's been one of the best

things that I've also gone through

because it's really got

me uh aware of just how important uh

emotional work of and and really the

least glamorous W of like making sure

our relationship with the most important

people out in our lives is actually good

and complete and has integrity and

that's something that you've written

about and spoken out about in the past

haven't you because I came across your

work in

2015 with a

brilliant essay that you wrote in um in

an online magazine about breaking the

silence on prostitution and rape culture

where you also spoke about the elements

of racism and colonialism and

imperialism M inherent to the system of

prostitution that the left would not

address I mean we knew that they

wouldn't address the male left wouldn't

address the abuse that came from the

misogyny involved but you spoke very

eloquently about what white men do to

women of color and Indigenous women and

black women

um and and yet seem to get a kind of

free pass for that can you tell me what

led up to you writing that

essay yeah well I started off so my

mother was a a long time

um uh a long time uh an outspoken

advocate of women's rights in in banatu

and and within and throughout the

Pacific um and I kind of I grew up

listening to her give these speeches

um but it wasn't until I got to and this

was in the 70s and 80s so Mom and Dad

were

both um part of that leadership core

that took vanatu to Independence against

the British and French um in the 1970s

and Van to became independent in

1980 and so what Mom experienced growing

up was uh with me growing up watching

Mom was this experience of fighting

alongside my dad and the other men in

that decolonization struggle only to go

into Power after

Independence and then to see the men

systematically push the women aside from

all the top political positions that

were quite available to them and

mom um mom basically didn't let them get

away with it and she mobilized you know

all their resources to call attention to

that inequity

within vanatu indigenous culture which

didn't make her very popular you know we

had our house burned down and her you

know Mom you know ured

quite uh quite strong forms of backlash

over the years really and yeah and and

you know just seeing her example of

never backing down it it St with me as a

boy and wasn't until I got to

University and when I started my PhD

really and I really started deep diving

into the history of feminism not just

within the Pacific but worldwide and

that's when I started to pick up that

there are these you know I I tend to see

life

as it it really is a real thing that our

our our histories and not just our

political histories they go through

these Cycles

of of of Consciousness raising and huge

breakthroughs at the societal level and

at the cultural level and then it's kind

of like a pendulum swing and then

conservative

forces there's a backlash that comes

against them and then there's this thing

of cultural Amnesia and this erasing of

that history that takes place so when I

was

reading uh you know I would I did my PhD

in the mid

2000s so even back then a lot of the

Erasure of some of the early radical

critiques of patriarchal culture that

pacific feminists were putting out in

the 70s and ' 80s no one really knew

about them you know the the political

Amnesia at school at University level

also said it and so those first

generation radic rical feminists and I'm

talking

indigenous radical

feminists um a lot of you know they were

almost unknown at University level

because even at Vic at the time for

instance women's studies had shut down I

think gender studies if it wasn't shut

down by then was on the way out so you

could see how the intellectual climate

quite closely uh correlated with the

political shifts at the social level at

the societal level so one of the points

that I really tried to do with my

writing was just to do my best to bring

back and to call attention that hey

there's actually these older critiques

that in a lot of ways are actually

asking really relevant questions for

understanding the political situation

now when it comes to

looking really

deeply and honestly at some of the

darker aspects of patriarchal culture

that we don't tend to talk about that

much such as the sex industry such as

prostitution and

pornography what's your take on the kind

of the role that pornography plays in

the sex education quote unquote of our

young people right now are you talking

about that where you are when you think

about um how our sexuality gets formed

over time from growing

up that sexual drive is itself such a

powerful shape of human psychology

because of it's it's deeply tied to the

needs the fundamental drives of the

human

body um or or the body mind as I like to

call it cuz it you can't really separate

body from

mind um and because it's got that deep

Ro

rooted um

embeddedness in in the body mind system

you know anything that can that can

shape um our our the human psychology in

that fundamental Way by linking it to

the sex

drives um and of course if you look at

the research that's coming out actually

that's been around for a while of how

companies especially tech companies and

some of the biggest companies in the

world it's actually part of their model

to consciously Target the the the the

the formation of our our children's

mental development right as they used to

with with cigarettes with the tobacco

the tobacco industry did exactly the

same that's right and and the principle

is you know if you can get a kid's mind

between Z and four and of course in the

the formative years between four and

Adolescence you've got a cons a customer

for Life you've got a loyal customer for

life and of course if you have a look at

the business model of a lot of these big

porn

companies um they've actually had as

part of their business model they're

offering a free porn because of course

kids don't have disposable income but of

course every kid but you know every

kid's got iPhones now right especially

in the western world

so if you can offer that kind of access

to your kids and you start shaping their

own predispositions of what turns them

on say sexually you've got a customer

for life right and of course part of the

dopamine and we're getting into the

nitty-gritty of say the how the the

human mind forms these these addictions

and attachments it's that dopamine cycle

if you can get addicted to a certain

dopamine hurt in order to maintain its

Effectiveness you've got to ramp up the

stimulus and that's why a lot of these

porn companies too they feed in these

layers of feeding PE consumers more and

more degrading and violent forms of

pornography right because the the kids

and then the young men get almost immune

to what they've been seeing they want

something harder they want something

nastier and you're absolutely right Gail

d The Scholar who now runs cultur

reframed she's a Brit who's lived in in

Boston for for decades and she wrote

pornland brilliant book where she

outlines this business model where she

looks at the fact that the porn industry

is about money not sex these men are

turned on by money and of course as

you've outlined

eloquently This Is How They hook the

kids in Pepsi and Coca-Cola did it why

wouldn't the porn industry use that the

tobacco industry used it and Gail told

me a fascinating story about this

where she went to interview some men in

prison who had committed acts of rape

and sexual assault against underage

girls and boys so kids and she talked to

them about why and how and what was in

their mind at the time I think we've got

to do this stuff we've got to talk to

these men about where were they at the

time that they did that

and one man said to

her porn groomed me I mean yeah maybe he

was trying to kind of get

himself absolved of responsibility which

of course he would not he cannot but

there's something in that that that porn

actually gave him the blueprint of how

this works one of the problems we've got

in our public discourse at the moment is

most of the politics of public discourse

are built on the politics of Shame and

blame now now from a from a

psychological standpoint like you think

about this junior like just think about

it in terms of our our own families and

kids and our own relationships like you

try to get somewhere by blaming and

shaving your

partner forget it right all your

kids now

now it like blame blaming and shaming is

distinct from holding someone

responsible and accountable those are

two very different things but if you

look at most of our political discourse

around these

issues most of it if you really look

closely and and it's really a individual

by individual thing look at how someone

communicates across especially across

political AES and when people get worked

up emotionally and you lose the the

respect the respect goes out of your

speech and the name calling comes in and

actually Julie it's in both

sides uh you can't get into someone

else's

world if you're already if you've

already got these these

conclusions in your mind and someone's

just uh a complete enemy that you can't

actually see each other's common

humanity and and again recognizing

someone else's Humanity doesn't mean we

absolve anyone of responsibility and

accountability I agree and in fact this

is exactly what Gail

dyes says in her approach in cultur ref

framed the NGO that she runs which is

focused on talking to parents of teens

and pre-teens who are either consuming

porn or are definitely vulnerable to

consuming porn in a way that means the

parents can then take that message to

their kids without being anti- seex

without shaming them without saying that

what you're doing is dirty or bad or

wrong the opposite of that because as we

know this is the last way that we're

going to get through to kids and it's

also the same for adults and and

actually you have

been I would say these aren't your words

it's my words a victim of a kind of

cancel

culture yeah I um yeah that was a real

learning experience for me um

specifically it it it made me become

really aware of you know every every

Community even activist

communities um we've all got these

collectively held beliefs which kind of

imposes certain boundaries around what

can be said and uh what cannot be said

and what's speakable and what's

completely

unspeakable and just as a as a

consequence of how political history

unfolded throughout the decades from the

70s with the with that right-wing

backlash that came

in um and then the you know the the

sexual liberalization of culture

um that started to

mainstream uh pornography and

prostitution that the sex

industries um yeah you couldn't ask

questions

about uh well is there a is there a

darker side to to the sex trade is it is

it underg gured by these material

conditions like

homelessness and and and violence and

trafficking and and child trafficking so

so forth that that we don't like really

looking at or talking about because it

brings up kind of like the the

collective

hypocrisies that we that makes it hard

to acknowledge as part of our our

Collective

identity so me writing articles that

simply started not just calling

attention but literally kind of pointing

at that

sore um yeah

people generally don't react well to

that when their own political positions

and political identities are in a lot of

ways premised on the

acceptability of things like the sex

trade

um having said that too Julie I you know

I've I've also I've also learned and and

done my own self-reflection and you know

um and one of the things I've realized

is if I if I was really honest Julie and

I looked at my own way of communicating

my ideas and and and speaking out um

there was a condemnatory tone to my um

to my

voice um and again if if if I if I did

it again now and and my my stance at the

moment

I I'd still I'd still claim that my God

there is this complete other side to the

six trade that the left is still not

looking at that hardly any of our

activist groups across the Spectrum are

willing to look at I'd also say it's

really important when we look at these

issues and we also engage with other

people especially across the political l

that we're also really cognizant of

people's sovereignty and free choice now

when you put those two things next to

each other it's often a bit hard to see

how you can marry the two together you

know like and people tend to flip-flop

you it's either you know it's completely

oppressive the structure and there's no

Freedom or or there's freedom but now

you're just this

complete um uh you know

liberalistic uh person who doesn't know

a bar about what structural inequality

is all about I think both those two

positions are self-defeating and they're

actually false

choices I think in other words you you

can't deny that there is some agency or

some Choice that's exercised rather than

us

imposing uh something on women for

example and saying no I don't accept

this you are not choosing to be in the

sex trade something which I would never

say to a woman because I'd be telling

her she's either a liar or she's got

false consciousness but at the same time

challenging the notion that freedom and

choice can come out of a life so

restricted

by social class racism and patriarchy

poverty feminism's become fra should and

the way that I sometimes will

say will explain what I mean by splinted

and fractured is a way that is clearly I

hope humorous which is that there are

hundreds of ways to be a feminist but

most of them are wrong and that there is

something which is a kind of a basic

feminism with basic principles about

overcoming patriarchy and starting from

the bottom up so caring about the women

in the base not the women in the glass

ceiling

more but tell me what you think about

feminism as a political movement today

right now looking from your point of

view into that movement what's your

thoughts man great question Julie so

when I look at the present state of

contemporary

feminism um especially when I compare it

historically to say I mean Julie I don't

even know what wave we're up to if we've

gone through let's say five or six waves

of feminism and each of them are

actually historically and culturally

distinct there's a continuity across

these these ages of phases right first

gen and then radical feminism in the

70s I would say looking back on it and

describing it against third wave and

fourth wave feminism

is one of its strengths was there was a

directness to its critique of patriarchy

and the structural critique is probably

something that's

unmatched especially by the way it was

able to connect multiple uh vectors of

Oppression I'll put it that way from

colonization

imperialism to that close finally

focused look at um the realm of sex

itself and intercourse and sexuality

where these institutions like

pornography and prostitution really got

put under the

microscope then the third and fourth

wave comes along and they started losing

a lot of that really direct critique of

structure what they introduced though

was uh in some ways actually need a much

needed also injection of

of um let's call it multiplicity and the

recognition of cultural diversity and

difference now that's a strength of

theirs as well but at the same time both

both and I'm I know I'm drawing a simple

polarity like I'm not trying to reduce

the Nuance but what I'm saying is both

those positions had

strengths and both those positions also

had blind spots and lost something and I

think in order to develop a feminist you

know just speaking for myself in order

to develop a critique

of um current power structures now it

really requires a conscious effort to

address

biases on where on both wherever they

they happen to be and actually to get

away from this infighting amongst

ourselves it's an ideological war and

it's intergenerational and it's

cross-generational between different

factions of women all of whom are

feminists all of whom say we want to end

patriarchy and there's so many

different ways in

which we can't connect to each other and

reasons why we can't connect to each

other and my my God all my aim the thing

that I would if I could wave a magic

wand I would have this one wish granted

is that we get in a room together and

talk especially with younger women who

feel disconnected from older feminists

who think that we're irrelevant or who

think that porn and prostitution is now

empowering or who deny their own abuse

because they've been told it gives them

agency and at the same time we you know

because I'm very much from the second

wave we are losing the ability to talk

with younger women and acknowledge their

reality and

acknowledge how they have come to their

own conclusions about their

lives and at the same time P I want to

ask you it's a kind of final question

for

you is how do we get young men men of

all ages but in particularly young men

to recognize that the struggle for

women's

Liberation should be something that they

have a stake in how do we encourage them

and enable them to do the work to speak

amongst themselves

about male

violence and go through that educational

process that you've been through because

they might not they don't have moms most

of them don't have moms like the mom you

had

yeah the thing that I found

is it's it's not that effective to

connect to kids much less

boys

if if at the moment we open our mouth

we're asking them to step into our

world right it's like we've got these

political answers and they just need to

get with the program I mean you know

like you know that just that doesn't

work with our own kids for goodness sake

why do you think it would work as a

political strategy right yeah good point

right the way to connect with our kids

is forget the polit forget the political

issues like we'll get to

them take the time to un to to get into

their

world and actually just to to be in

their world with them man we do that

they'll tell us stuff that will knock

our socks

off I found I found that with

girls I think that's one of the biggest

blind spots we've got at the moment and

like I'm

generalizing um there's some amazing

work being done I'm making a general

point though that if you look

historically about how we've tried to

quote unquote change the

world uh I think we've got a about it

back to front I won't use the

Cruda Commonwealth way of putting it a

but you know ass

backwards uh you know but if if you

start by by getting wanting to really

get to know our young

people man I think that's more than half

the battle because when a kid feels God

man they'll tell you stuff you won't

even know about or expect and that's

actually the basis of building a

truly uh empowering movement that

actually includes everyone paa thank you

you've been the best best

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