Strange answers to the psychopath test | Jon Ronson | TED

Summary

In this humorous and thought-provoking talk, the speaker discovers they have 12 mental disorders after browsing the DSM manual. They meet with a Scientologist critic of psychiatry and visit Broadmoor Hospital to meet Tony, a man who faked insanity to avoid prison but ended up trapped in a psychiatric facility. The narrative explores the complexities of mental health diagnosis, the potential overreach of psychiatric labeling, and the gray areas of human behavior, culminating in a broader discussion about the nature of psychopathy and its surprising presence in society.

Takeaways

• 📚 The DSM manual has expanded significantly from a slim pamphlet in the '50s to a comprehensive 886-page book listing 374 mental disorders.
• 🤔 The speaker humorously discovers they have 12 mental disorders according to the DSM, including generalized anxiety disorder and nightmare disorder.
• 😅 The concept of self-diagnosis is questioned, as the speaker ponders the implications of labeling normal human behavior as a mental disorder.
• 🤝 An encounter with a Scientologist named Brian leads to a discussion about the validity of psychiatry and the introduction to Tony, a man at Broadmoor Hospital.
• 🏥 Broadmoor Hospital, formerly an asylum for the criminally insane, is where Tony ended up after faking madness to avoid a prison sentence.
• 🕴️ Tony's attempt to appear sane by dressing well and discussing normal topics backfires as the hospital staff misinterpret his behavior as signs of mental illness.
• 🧐 The speaker becomes a certified psychopath spotter after attending a course by Robert Hare, the creator of the psychopath checklist.
• 📊 One in a hundred people are considered psychopaths, with a higher percentage found among CEOs and business leaders, suggesting that certain psychopathic traits might be advantageous in capitalism.
• 🔍 The speaker interviews 'Chainsaw Al' Dunlap, a business figure known for ruthless cost-cutting measures, and reflects on the tendency to focus on the extreme aspects of a person's character.
• 🔄 The story concludes with Tony's release from Broadmoor after 14 years, highlighting the complexities and gray areas in diagnosing and treating mental disorders.

Q & A

What was the initial observation the speaker made about the DSM manual?

The speaker initially observed that the DSM manual, which lists mental disorders, has grown from a slim pamphlet in the '50s to a 886-page book listing 374 mental disorders.

How many mental disorders did the speaker discover they had upon self-assessment?

Upon self-assessment, the speaker discovered they had 12 mental disorders.

What is the significance of Broadmoor Hospital in the context of the story?

Broadmoor Hospital, formerly known as the Broadmoor Asylum for the Criminally Insane, is significant as it is where the speaker meets Tony, a man who faked madness to avoid a prison sentence but ended up in the hospital.

Why did Tony initially fake madness, and what was the outcome?

Tony initially faked madness to avoid a prison sentence for beating someone up. However, he faked it too well and ended up in Broadmoor Hospital for 12 years, longer than his original prison sentence would have been.

What was Tony's strategy to convince people of his sanity within Broadmoor?

Tony's strategy was to act and speak normally about everyday topics like football or current events, subscribing to New Scientist to have relevant conversations.

How did the staff at Broadmoor interpret Tony's behavior?

The staff at Broadmoor interpreted Tony's normal behavior, such as staying in his room and not wanting to socialize with other patients, as signs of madness, specifically aloofness and grandiosity.

What was the clinician's final assessment of Tony after his release from Broadmoor?

After 14 years, Tony was released from Broadmoor as they determined he should not be held indefinitely based on a checklist score that suggested a higher chance of recidivism.

What did the speaker learn about the prevalence of psychopathy in society after attending Robert Hare's psychopath-spotting course?

The speaker learned that one in a hundred regular people is a psychopath, with a higher prevalence among CEOs and business leaders, suggesting that certain psychopathic traits might be rewarded in ruthless capitalism.

How did the speaker's perception of Al Dunlap, the 'asset stripper,' align with the traits of a psychopath?

The speaker's perception of Al Dunlap aligned with psychopathic traits as he displayed grandiosity, manipulativeness, and a lack of empathy, which are characteristic of a psychopath.

What realization did the speaker come to regarding the nature of journalism and labeling people?

The speaker realized that journalism, like their own experience with labeling Al Dunlap as a psychopath, often focuses on the extreme or 'maddest edges' of a person's character, neglecting the normal aspects and leading to a one-dimensional portrayal.

Outlines

00:00

📚 The Curious Case of DSM and Mental Disorders

The speaker begins by recounting a personal experience at a friend's house where they discovered a copy of the DSM manual, which lists mental disorders. They note the manual's growth from a slim pamphlet in the '50s to a comprehensive 886-page book detailing 374 disorders. Intrigued, the speaker finds they match 12 of the listed disorders, including generalized anxiety disorder and nightmare disorder, prompting a humorous self-reflection. This leads to a contemplation of the ethics and implications of self-diagnosis and the tendency of psychiatry to pathologize normal human behavior. The narrative then takes a turn towards a meeting with a Scientologist critic of psychiatry, setting the stage for an exploration of the complexities and criticisms of the field.

05:04

🏥 Broadmoor and the Conundrum of Sanity

The speaker recounts their visit to Broadmoor Hospital, previously known as the Broadmoor Asylum for the Criminally Insane, to meet Tony, a man who allegedly faked madness to avoid a prison sentence but ended up genuinely institutionalized. Tony's story is a paradox, where his attempts to appear sane are misinterpreted as signs of insanity, highlighting the difficulty in distinguishing between genuine mental illness and feigned symptoms. The speaker's interaction with Tony and the hospital staff, including a Scientologist named Brian, raises questions about the reliability of psychiatric diagnoses and the impact of medication on patient behavior. The narrative also touches on the broader implications of labeling and the potential for misdiagnosis in the field of mental health.

10:06

🧐 The Psychopath in the Boardroom

The narrative shifts towards an exploration of psychopathy, particularly in the context of business and corporate culture. The speaker describes attending a psychopath-spotting course led by Robert Hare, the creator of the psychopathy checklist, and emerging as a certified psychopath spotter. They delve into the prevalence of psychopathic traits among CEOs and business leaders, suggesting that ruthless capitalism may inadvertently reward such behaviors. The speaker's attempt to interview individuals like 'Chainsaw Al' Dunlap, known for his aggressive business tactics, leads to a humorous and insightful encounter that challenges the speaker's own preconceptions and the very notion of defining someone by their most extreme characteristics.

15:08

🔍 The Gray Areas of Humanity and Truth

In the final paragraph, the speaker reflects on their experiences and the lessons learned from Tony, who was eventually released from Broadmoor after 14 years. Tony's release and subsequent actions, including a brief return to jail, prompt a deeper contemplation on the nature of psychopathy and the dangers of defining individuals by their most extreme behaviors. The speaker acknowledges the complexity and humanity found in the 'gray areas' of personality and behavior, advocating for a more nuanced understanding of mental health and human nature. The narrative concludes with a thought-provoking question about how one should engage with individuals like Tony, leaving the audience to consider the complexities of empathy, judgment, and the search for truth.

Keywords

💡DSM manual

The DSM manual, or the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, is a publication by the American Psychiatric Association that provides a common language and standard criteria for the classification of mental health disorders. In the video, the speaker discovers the DSM manual at a friend's house and uses it to humorously self-diagnose with multiple disorders, highlighting the manual's extensive list of mental disorders and questioning the nature of psychiatric diagnoses.

💡Mental disorders

Mental disorders refer to a wide range of mental health conditions that affect mood, thinking, and behavior, resulting in distress and impairment of daily functioning. The video script discusses the speaker's self-identification with 12 different mental disorders listed in the DSM manual, using humor to critique the proliferation of diagnoses and the potential for over-pathologizing normal human experiences.

💡Generalized anxiety disorder

Generalized anxiety disorder is a mental health condition characterized by persistent and excessive worry about various aspects of life. In the script, the speaker mentions having this disorder, using it as a springboard to discuss the broader topic of mental health diagnoses and the potential for self-labeling.

💡Malingering

Malingering is the act of feigning or exaggerating symptoms of illness or injury, typically to gain some form of personal benefit. The speaker mentions having malingering listed as one of their 'disorders' in the DSM manual, which is ironic given the speaker's later exploration of a man who faked mental illness to avoid prison, leading to a deeper discussion on the complexities of diagnosing and treating mental health.

💡Broadmoor Hospital

Broadmoor Hospital is a high-security psychiatric hospital in the UK, historically known for treating some of the most dangerous and criminally insane individuals. In the narrative, the speaker visits Broadmoor to meet Tony, who faked madness to avoid a prison sentence but ended up in the hospital, illustrating the serious consequences and ironies of psychiatric diagnosis.

💡Psychopathy

Psychopathy is a personality disorder characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, and egotistical traits. The video discusses the concept of psychopathy through the story of Tony, who is diagnosed as a psychopath by his clinicians, and through the speaker's attendance at a psychopath-spotting course, critiquing the checklist approach to diagnosing psychopathy.

💡CCHR

CCHR stands for the Citizens Commission on Human Rights, an advocacy group associated with the Church of Scientology that opposes psychiatric treatments and diagnoses. The speaker meets with a member of CCHR to explore criticisms of psychiatry, leading to a visit to Broadmoor Hospital and a discussion on the validity and impact of psychiatric diagnoses.

💡Rapport

Rapport refers to a harmonious relationship or connection between individuals, often characterized by mutual understanding and trust. The script describes Tony's efforts to establish rapport with the hospital staff by discussing normal topics like football, which is ironically misinterpreted as a sign of his madness, highlighting the challenges in assessing and treating mental health within an institutional setting.

💡Recidivism

Recidivism is the tendency of a convicted criminal to reoffend. In the context of the video, Tony's potential for recidivism is a consideration in his tribunal, as his high score on a psychopathy checklist suggests he might be at a greater risk of reoffending, which is a central issue in the debate over the release and management of individuals with certain mental health diagnoses.

💡Gray areas

The term 'gray areas' refers to situations or concepts that are not clearly defined or are open to interpretation, as opposed to being distinctly black and white. The speaker concludes the video by reflecting on the importance of recognizing and accepting the gray areas in human behavior and mental health, rather than rigidly categorizing individuals into diagnostic boxes, using Tony's story as an example of the complexity of human nature.

Highlights

The DSM manual has evolved from a slim pamphlet in the '50s to a comprehensive 886-page book listing 374 mental disorders.

The speaker humorously discovers they have 12 mental disorders according to the DSM, including generalized anxiety disorder and nightmare disorder.

A critical view of psychiatry is presented, questioning the profession's tendency to label normal human behavior as mental disorders.

An encounter with a Scientologist, Brian, who is part of an organization aiming to discredit psychiatry, is recounted.

The story of Tony, who faked madness to avoid prison but ended up in Broadmoor Hospital, is introduced.

Tony's detailed account of how he successfully faked mental illness to be transferred from prison to a hospital.

The irony that Tony's actions, intended to seem sane, were instead interpreted as signs of madness by the medical staff.

The realization that the DSM's checklist for diagnosing psychopathy can be inadvertently self-fulfilling.

A discussion on the prevalence of psychopathy in society, with a focus on its potential rewards in a ruthless capitalist system.

The speaker's experience attending a psychopath-spotting course and becoming certified in identifying psychopathic traits.

Anecdotes from interviewing 'Chainsaw Al' Dunlap, a business leader known for his ruthless practices.

The ethical dilemma faced by the speaker in defining people solely by their most extreme characteristics.

The speaker's reflection on the media's tendency to focus on the most sensational aspects of a person's personality.

Tony's release from Broadmoor after 14 years, challenging the notion of defining people by checklists and diagnoses.

The conclusion that gray areas in human behavior are where complexity, humanity, and truth are found.

A personal invitation from Tony to the speaker, highlighting the complexity of their relationship and the story's impact.

Transcripts

Translator: Timothy Covell Reviewer: Morton Bast

The story starts: I was at a friend's house,

and she had on her shelf a copy of the DSM manual,

which is the manual of mental disorders.

It lists every known mental disorder.

And it used to be, back in the '50s, a very slim pamphlet.

And then it got bigger and bigger and bigger,

and now it's 886 pages long.

And it lists currently 374 mental disorders.

So I was leafing through it,

wondering if I had any mental disorders,

and it turns out I've got 12.

(Laughter)

I've got generalized anxiety disorder,

which is a given.

I've got nightmare disorder,

which is categorized

if you have recurrent dreams of being pursued or declared a failure,

and all my dreams involve people chasing me down the street

going, "You're a failure!"

(Laughter)

I've got parent-child relational problems,

which I blame my parents for.

(Laughter)

I'm kidding. I'm not kidding.

I'm kidding.

And I've got malingering.

And I think it's actually quite rare

to have both malingering and generalized anxiety disorder,

because malingering tends to make me feel very anxious.

Anyway, I was looking through this book,

wondering if I was much crazier than I thought I was,

or maybe it's not a good idea to diagnose yourself with a mental disorder

if you're not a trained professional,

or maybe the psychiatry profession has a kind of strange desire

to label what's essentially normal human behavior as a mental disorder.

I didn't know which of these was true, but I thought it was kind of interesting,

and I thought maybe I should meet a critic of psychiatry

to get their view,

which is how I ended up having lunch with the Scientologists.

(Laughter)

It was a man called Brian, who runs a crack team of Scientologists

who are determined to destroy psychiatry wherever it lies.

They're called the CCHR.

And I said to him, "Can you prove to me

that psychiatry is a pseudo-science that can't be trusted?"

And he said, "Yes, we can prove it to you."

And I said, "How?"

And he said, "We're going to introduce you to Tony."

And I said, "Who's Tony?"

And he said, "Tony's in Broadmoor."

Now, Broadmoor is Broadmoor Hospital.

It used to be known as the Broadmoor Asylum for the Criminally Insane.

It's where they send the serial killers,

and the people who can't help themselves.

And I said to Brian, "Well, what did Tony do?"

And he said, "Hardly anything.

He beat someone up or something,

and he decided to fake madness to get out of a prison sentence.

But he faked it too well, and now he's stuck in Broadmoor

and nobody will believe he's sane.

Do you want us to try and get you into Broadmoor to meet Tony?"

So I said, "Yes, please."

So I got the train to Broadmoor.

I began to yawn uncontrollably around Kempton Park,

which apparently is what dogs also do when anxious,

they yawn uncontrollably.

And we got to Broadmoor.

And I got taken through gate after gate after gate after gate

into the wellness center, which is where you get to meet the patients.

It looks like a giant Hampton Inn.

It's all peach and pine and calming colors.

And the only bold colors are the reds of the panic buttons.

And the patients started drifting in.

And they were quite overweight and wearing sweatpants,

and quite docile-looking.

And Brian the Scientologist whispered to me,

"They're medicated,"

which, to the Scientologists, is like the worst evil in the world,

but I'm thinking it's probably a good idea.

(Laughter)

And then Brian said, "Here's Tony."

And a man was walking in.

And he wasn't overweight, he was in very good physical shape.

And he wasn't wearing sweatpants,

he was wearing a pinstripe suit.

And he had his arm outstretched

like someone out of The Apprentice.

He looked like a man who wanted to wear an outfit

that would convince me that he was very sane.

And he sat down.

And I said, "So is it true that you faked your way in here?"

And he said, "Yep. Yep. Absolutely. I beat someone up when I was 17.

And I was in prison awaiting trial,

and my cellmate said to me,

'You know what you have to do?

Fake madness.

Tell them you're mad, you'll get sent to some cushy hospital.

Nurses will bring you pizzas, you'll have your own PlayStation.'"

I said, "Well, how did you do it?"

He said, "Well, I asked to see the prison psychiatrist.

And I'd just seen a film called 'Crash,'

in which people get sexual pleasure from crashing cars into walls.

So I said to the psychiatrist,

'I get sexual pleasure from crashing cars into walls.'"

And I said, "What else?"

He said, "Oh, yeah. I told the psychiatrist

that I wanted to watch women as they died,

because it would make me feel more normal."

I said, "Where'd you get that from?"

He said, "Oh, from a biography of Ted Bundy that they had

at the prison library."

Anyway, he faked madness too well, he said.

And they didn't send him to some cushy hospital.

They sent him to Broadmoor.

And the minute he got there,

said he took one look at the place, asked to see the psychiatrist,

said, "There's been a terrible misunderstanding.

I'm not mentally ill."

I said, "How long have you been here for?"

He said, "Well, if I'd just done my time in prison

for the original crime, I'd have got five years.

I've been in Broadmoor for 12 years."

Tony said that it's a lot harder to convince people you're sane

than it is to convince them you're crazy.

He said, "I thought the best way to seem normal

would be to talk to people normally about normal things

like football or what's on TV.

I subscribe to New Scientist,

and recently they had an article

about how the U.S. Army was training bumblebees to sniff out explosives.

So I said to a nurse,

'Did you know that the U.S. Army is training bumblebees

to sniff out explosives?'

When I read my medical notes, I saw they'd written:

'Believes bees can sniff out explosives.'"

(Laughter)

He said, "You know, they're always looking out for nonverbal clues

to my mental state.

But how do you sit in a sane way?

How do you cross your legs in a sane way?

It's just impossible."

When Tony said that to me,

I thought to myself, "Am I sitting like a journalist?

Am I crossing my legs like a journalist?"

He said, "You know, I've got the Stockwell Strangler on one side of me,

and I've got the 'Tiptoe Through the Tulips' rapist

on the other side of me.

So I tend to stay in my room a lot because I find them quite frightening.

And they take that as a sign of madness.

They say it proves that I'm aloof and grandiose."

So, only in Broadmoor would not wanting to hang out with serial killers

be a sign of madness.

Anyway, he seemed completely normal to me, but what did I know?

And when I got home I emailed his clinician, Anthony Maden.

I said, "What's the story?"

And he said, "Yep. We accept that Tony faked madness

to get out of a prison sentence, because his hallucinations --

that had seemed quite cliche to begin with --

just vanished the minute he got to Broadmoor.

However, we have assessed him,

and we've determined that what he is

is a psychopath."

And in fact, faking madness

is exactly the kind of cunning and manipulative act of a psychopath.

It's on the checklist: cunning, manipulative.

So, faking your brain going wrong

is evidence that your brain has gone wrong.

And I spoke to other experts,

and they said the pinstripe suit -- classic psychopath --

speaks to items one and two on the checklist:

glibness, superficial charm and grandiose sense of self-worth.

And I said, "Well, but why didn't he hang out with the other patients?"

Classic psychopath -- it speaks to grandiosity and also lack of empathy.

So all the things that had seemed most normal about Tony

was evidence, according to his clinician,

that he was mad in this new way.

He was a psychopath.

And his clinician said to me, "If you want to know more about psychopaths,

you can go on a psychopath-spotting course

run by Robert Hare, who invented the psychopath checklist."

So I did.

I went on a psychopath-spotting course,

and I am now a certified --

and I have to say, extremely adept -- psychopath spotter.

So, here's the statistics:

One in a hundred regular people is a psychopath.

So there's 1,500 people in his room.

Fifteen of you are psychopaths.

Although that figure rises to four percent of CEOs and business leaders,

so I think there's a very good chance

there's about 30 or 40 psychopaths in this room.

It could be carnage by the end of the night.

(Laughter)

Hare said the reason why is because capitalism at its most ruthless

rewards psychopathic behavior --

the lack of empathy, the glibness,

cunning, manipulative.

In fact, capitalism, perhaps at its most remorseless,

is a physical manifestation of psychopathy.

It's like a form of psychopathy that's come down to affect us all.

Hare said, "You know what? Forget about some guy at Broadmoor

who may or may not have faked madness.

Who cares? That's not a big story.

The big story," he said, "is corporate psychopathy.

You want to go and interview yourself some corporate psychopaths."

So I gave it a try. I wrote to the Enron people.

I said, "Could I come and interview you in prison,

to find out it you're psychopaths?"

(Laughter)

And they didn't reply.

(Laughter)

So I changed tack.

I emailed "Chainsaw Al" Dunlap,

the asset stripper from the 1990s.

He would come into failing businesses

and close down 30 percent of the workforce,

just turn American towns into ghost towns.

And I emailed him and I said,

"I believe you may have a very special brain anomaly

that makes you ... special,

and interested in the predatory spirit, and fearless.

Can I come and interview you about your special brain anomaly?"

And he said, "Come on over!"

(Laughter)

So I went to Al Dunlap's grand Florida mansion.

It was filled with sculptures of predatory animals.

There were lions and tigers -- he was taking me through the garden --

there were falcons and eagles,

he was saying, "Over there you've got sharks and --"

he was saying this in a less effeminate way --

"You've got more sharks and you've got tigers."

It was like Narnia.

(Laughter)

And then we went into his kitchen.

Now, Al Dunlap would be brought in to save failing companies,

he'd close down 30 percent of the workforce.

And he'd quite often fire people with a joke.

Like, for instance, one famous story about him,

somebody came up to him and said, "I've just bought myself a new car."

And he said, "Well, you may have a new car,

but I'll tell you what you don't have -- a job."

So in his kitchen --

he was in there with his wife, Judy, and his bodyguard, Sean --

and I said, "You know how I said in my email

that you might have a special brain anomaly that makes you special?"

He said, "Yeah, it's an amazing theory, it's like Star Trek.

You're going where no man has gone before."

And I said, "Well --" (Clears throat)

(Laughter)

Some psychologists might say

that this makes you --" (Mumbles)

(Laughter)

And he said, "What?"

And I said, "A psychopath."

And I said, "I've got a list of psychopathic traits in my pocket.

Can I go through them with you?"

And he looked intrigued despite himself,

and he said, "Okay, go on."

And I said, "Okay. Grandiose sense of self-worth."

Which I have to say, would have been hard for him to deny,

because he was standing under a giant oil painting of himself.

(Laughter)

He said, "Well, you've got to believe in you!"

And I said, "Manipulative."

He said, "That's leadership."

(Laughter)

And I said, "Shallow affect,

an inability to experience a range of emotions."

He said, "Who wants to be weighed down by some nonsense emotions?"

So he was going down the psychopath checklist,

basically turning it into "Who Moved My Cheese?"

(Laughter)

But I did notice something happening to me the day I was with Al Dunlap.

Whenever he said anything to me that was kind of normal --

like he said "no" to juvenile delinquency,

he said he got accepted into West Point,

and they don't let delinquents in West Point.

He said "no" to many short-term marital relationships.

He's only ever been married twice.

Admittedly, his first wife cited in her divorce papers

that he once threatened her with a knife

and said he always wondered what human flesh tasted like,

but people say stupid things to each other

in bad marriages in the heat of an argument,

and his second marriage has lasted 41 years.

So whenever he said anything to me that just seemed kind of non-psychopathic,

I thought to myself, well I'm not going to put that in my book.

And then I realized that becoming a psychopath spotter

had kind of turned me a little bit psychopathic.

Because I was desperate to shove him in a box marked "Psychopath."

I was desperate to define him by his maddest edges.

And I realized, my God --

this is what I've been doing for 20 years.

It's what all journalists do.

We travel across the world with our notepads in our hands,

and we wait for the gems.

And the gems are always the outermost aspects

of our interviewee's personality.

And we stitch them together like medieval monks,

and we leave the normal stuff on the floor.

And you know, this is a country that over-diagnoses

certain mental disorders hugely.

Childhood bipolar --

children as young as four are being labeled bipolar

because they have temper tantrums,

which scores them high on the bipolar checklist.

When I got back to London, Tony phoned me.

He said, "Why haven't you been returning my calls?"

I said, "Well, they say that you're a psychopath."

And he said, "I'm not a psychopath."

He said, "You know what?

One of the items on the checklist is lack of remorse,

but another item on the checklist is cunning, manipulative.

So when you say you feel remorse for your crime,

they say, 'Typical of the psychopath

to cunningly say he feels remorse when he doesn't.'

It's like witchcraft, they turn everything upside-down."

He said, "I've got a tribunal coming up.

Will you come to it?"

So I said okay.

So I went to his tribunal.

And after 14 years in Broadmoor, they let him go.

They decided that he shouldn't be held indefinitely

because he scores high on a checklist that might mean

that he would have a greater than average chance of recidivism.

So they let him go.

And outside in the corridor he said to me,

"You know what, Jon?

Everyone's a bit psychopathic."

He said, "You are, I am. Well, obviously I am."

I said, "What are you going to do now?"

He said, "I'm going to go to Belgium.

There's a woman there that I fancy.

But she's married, so I'm going to have to get her split up from her husband."

(Laughter)

Anyway, that was two years ago,

and that's where my book ended.

And for the last 20 months, everything was fine.

Nothing bad happened.

He was living with a girl outside London.

He was, according to Brian the Scientologist,

making up for lost time, which I know sounds ominous,

but isn't necessarily ominous.

Unfortunately, after 20 months,

he did go back to jail for a month.

He got into a "fracas" in a bar, he called it.

Ended up going to jail for a month, which I know is bad,

but at least a month implies that whatever the fracas was,

it wasn't too bad.

And then he phoned me.

And you know what, I think it's right that Tony is out.

Because you shouldn't define people by their maddest edges.

And what Tony is, is he's a semi-psychopath.

He's a gray area in a world that doesn't like gray areas.

But the gray areas are where you find the complexity.

It's where you find the humanity,

and it's where you find the truth.

And Tony said to me,

"Jon, could I buy you a drink in a bar?

I just want to thank you for everything you've done for me."

And I didn't go.

What would you have done?

Thank you.

(Applause)