Paula Vennells was 'lying' about Post Office scandal, claims forensic accountant

Summary

The Post Office scandal involved thousands of sub postmasters wrongfully prosecuted for theft due to issues with the Post Office's Horizon computer system. A public inquiry has revealed attempts by Post Office executives to cover up the problems, including trying to 'shut down' campaigns by affected sub postmasters and supportive MPs. There is evidence the Post Office knew Horizon could cause money discrepancies, yet still prosecuted sub postmasters based on false accounts. MPs and investigators allege the Post Office lied to government committees and inquiries. There are now calls for police investigations and criminal prosecutions over the scandal which ruined lives over many years.

Takeaways

• 😡 The UK Post Office scandal involved thousands of subpostmasters wrongfully accused and convicted of theft.
• 😟 Senior Post Office executives and lawyers knew of problems with the Horizon IT system but covered them up.
• 😠 Post Office executives tried to shut down MPs and campaigners investigating the scandal.
• 😤 The Post Office misled Parliament about evidence of miscarriages of justice.
• 😢 Subpostmaster lives were ruined by false accusations and wrongful convictions.
• 😠 The Post Office limited the information given to investigating forensic accountants.
• 😡 The Post Office CEO denied any evidence of miscarriages of justice despite being aware of such evidence.
• 🤬 An investigator believes the Post Office CEO lied to Parliament about miscarriages of justice.
• 😤 The Post Office tried to control and shut down an MP and subpostmasters' alliance investigating the scandal.
• 😠 There are calls for criminal investigations and prosecutions of Post Office leaders involved in the scandal cover up.

Q & A

What is the Post Office inquiry investigating?

The Post Office inquiry is investigating the Post Office Horizon scandal, where thousands of sub-postmasters were wrongly prosecuted for theft, false accounting and fraud.

What evidence has been uncovered about the Post Office's knowledge of problems with the Horizon system?

Covertly recorded meeting transcripts show the Post Office knew there were problems with the Horizon system and tried to cover it up, including attempting to shut down MP investigations.

How did the Post Office respond to MP inquiries about the scandal?

The Post Office tried to shut down inquiries by MPs like James Arbuthnot, who were raising concerns about potential miscarriages of justice against sub-postmasters.

What did Paula Vennells tell Parliament about potential miscarriages of justice?

In 2015, Paula Vennells, then CEO of the Post Office, told Parliament "we've had no evidence of" any miscarriages of justice against sub-postmasters.

What evidence contradicts Vennells' statement to Parliament?

A 2006 confidential report into the case of sub-postmaster Joe Hamilton found no evidence of theft, despite Hamilton later being prosecuted - evidence the Post Office knew of problems years before Vennells' statement.

What was the involvement of Second Sight in investigating the scandal?

Second Sight were forensic accountants brought in by the Post Office in 2012 to investigate the scandal. They found major issues with the Horizon system, which the Post Office tried to suppress.

How did MPs react to the transcript revelations?

MPs like Lord Arbuthnot expressed shock and called for urgent police investigations into potential criminal misconduct by Post Office executives.

What were the impacts on affected sub-postmasters?

Sub-postmasters suffered wrongful prosecutions, imprisonment, financial ruin, and health impacts due to the Post Office's false accusations against them.

What are the next steps for the inquiry?

The inquiry will continue taking testimony and examining evidence, with a final report still to be published. Criminal investigations may also follow.

What are the wider implications of the scandal?

Beyond individual injustices, the scandal reveals issues with government oversight of a national institution and institutional cover-ups of errors.

Outlines

00:00

🔍 The Post Office Scandal: An Inquiry into Injustice

The paragraph discusses the ongoing Post Office public inquiry, now in its third year, focusing on the testimonies of individuals whose lives were severely impacted by wrongful convictions of theft based on flawed evidence. Tracy Fell, a sub-postmaster wrongly convicted at 19, is highlighted as one of thousands affected by what is described as the greatest miscarriage of justice in British history. The inquiry has uncovered covertly recorded tapes of senior Post Office executives, revealing attempts to suppress the scandal and manipulate the justice process. Susan Kryon, a senior Post Office lawyer, is mentioned for her role in trying to manage the fallout and influence MPs and the Justice for Sub Postmasters Alliance. The involvement of forensic accountants from Second Site, who found that the issue lay in the Post Office's technology rather than the sub-postmasters, further complicates the narrative. The Post Office's efforts to control information and prevent investigations are criticized, underlining a systemic attempt to hide the truth.

05:02

🔎 Discrepancies and Denials: Uncovering the Truth

This paragraph delves into the responses and actions taken by the Post Office and its executives when faced with allegations of miscarriages of justice. Paula Venel, the Post Office boss, and her denial of evidence pointing to wrongful convictions are scrutinized, especially in light of evidence to the contrary, such as the case of sub postmaster Joe Hamilton. Despite Venel's apology and support for the inquiry, the narrative suggests a pattern of denial and suppression of evidence by the Post Office. The involvement of MPs, notably Lord Bunot, in challenging the Post Office's narrative and pushing for transparency and justice is emphasized. The paragraph exposes a culture of cover-up within the Post Office, highlighting the significant discrepancies between public statements and internal knowledge of the flawed Horizon system.

10:03

🚨 Calls for Accountability and Action

In the final paragraph, the focus shifts to the urgent need for criminal investigations and accountability. Lord Bunot advocates for immediate police action based on existing evidence, without waiting for the inquiry's conclusion. He emphasizes the injustice faced by postmasters, drawing parallels between the swift injustice they experienced and the slow pace of seeking accountability for those responsible. The paragraph underscores the gravity of the scandal, pointing to systemic corruption and mismanagement within a government-owned organization. The mention of Joe Hamilton's case, where evidence of her innocence was ignored, highlights the profound impact of the scandal on individuals' lives. Lord Bunot's call to action reflects a broader demand for justice and reform in the wake of the Post Office scandal.

Keywords

💡Post Office Public Inquiry

The Post Office Public Inquiry refers to an official investigation into the wrongful convictions of sub-postmasters in the UK, accused of theft and other crimes due to faulty accounting software. This inquiry aims to uncover the truth behind what has been labeled the greatest miscarriage of justice in British history. It involves daily hearings where testimonies from affected individuals, like Tracy Fell, are heard, highlighting the profound impact on their lives.

💡Horizon Scandal

The Horizon Scandal centers around the malfunctioning of the Horizon computer system, used by the UK Post Office to manage its finances. This system erroneously reported financial discrepancies, leading to the wrongful accusation, conviction, and in some cases, imprisonment of numerous sub-postmasters for theft and fraud. The scandal is significant due to the scale of injustice and the subsequent fight for exoneration and compensation by the victims.

💡Covertly Recorded Audio Tapes

The covertly recorded audio tapes mentioned in the script are crucial evidence in the inquiry, revealing private discussions among senior Post Office executives, including their legal strategies and attempts to influence parliamentary members (MPs) and silence advocacy groups. These recordings provide insight into the Post Office's internal response to the unfolding scandal and are key to understanding the depth of the cover-up attempt.

💡Forensic Accountants

Forensic accountants were brought in by the Post Office in 2012 to investigate the discrepancies attributed to the Horizon system. Their involvement highlights the Post Office's initial steps to address the financial anomalies. However, the subsequent reports and covert meetings captured on the audio tapes suggest a complex response aimed at managing the fallout rather than transparently addressing the root causes and rectifying the wrongful prosecutions.

💡Miscarriage of Justice

A miscarriage of justice refers to a failure of a court or judicial system to attain the desired end of justice, especially cases where innocent individuals are convicted. In the context of the video, it specifically refers to the wrongful conviction of sub-postmasters based on faulty evidence from the Horizon system. This term underscores the inquiry's focus on rectifying these wrongs and the systemic failures that allowed them to occur.

💡Sub-Postmasters

Sub-postmasters are individuals who operated sub-post offices across the UK, providing postal and financial services. Many were wrongfully accused of theft and fraud due to the Horizon system's errors, leading to devastating personal and professional consequences. Their stories are central to the inquiry, illustrating the human cost of the scandal.

💡Justice for Sub-Postmasters Alliance

The Justice for Sub-Postmasters Alliance (JFSA) is an advocacy group representing the interests of the affected sub-postmasters. It has been instrumental in bringing the Horizon scandal to public attention and seeking redress for the victims. The script mentions attempts by Post Office executives to manage or 'shut down' the efforts of JFSA, highlighting the conflict between the victims' pursuit of justice and the Post Office's desire to control the narrative.

💡Cover-Up

The term 'cover-up' in the script refers to the Post Office's alleged efforts to conceal evidence, mislead the public and parliamentary members, and prevent the full extent of the Horizon scandal from being uncovered. This includes the strategic management of information, influencing key stakeholders, and attempting to discredit or silence opposition. The cover-up is a critical aspect of the inquiry, revealing the lengths to which the Post Office went to protect its interests.

💡Misleading Parliament

Misleading Parliament involves providing false or incomplete information to the legislative body, a serious offense that undermines parliamentary oversight and democratic accountability. The script highlights accusations that the Post Office, through its representatives, misled Parliament about the existence of miscarriages of justice related to the Horizon scandal. This accusation underscores the gravity of the Post Office's alleged attempts to evade scrutiny.

💡Prosecutions and Convictions

Prosecutions and convictions of sub-postmasters on charges of theft, fraud, and other financial crimes form the crux of the Horizon scandal. These legal actions were based on erroneous data from the Horizon system, leading to unjust criminal sentences. The inquiry and the script focus on these prosecutions as emblematic of the miscarriage of justice that occurred, highlighting the need for legal and institutional reform.

Highlights

Thousands of lives damaged by the post office scandal

Inquiry has given a window into the heart of the scandal

Revealed inquiry has 80 covertly recorded tapes of post office executives

Post office lawyer wanted to 'shut down' MPs investigating the scandal

Post office held back information from investigators

Investigator believes post office CEO lied to Parliament about miscarriages of justice

Post office had evidence years before CEO claimed no miscarriages of justice

Former MP says post office tried to 'kill off' the scandal and shut down investigations

Investigator accuses post office of 'cover up' and misleading Parliament

Former MP says criminal prosecutions should begin based on current evidence

Post office paid sub postmasters' union to prevent them getting help

Cover up by post office made the scandal much worse

Police should investigate perjury in courts by post office

Story reveals profound corruption at government-owned post office

Deeply shocking revelations continue to emerge

Transcripts

and affirm declare and affirm that the

evidence I shall give that the evidence

I shall give shall be now in its third

year the post office public inquiry

hearing testimony on a daily basis of

lives ruined I hadn't stolen any money

so why am I paying something that I

haven't

stolen the day of

sentencing the judge accused me of

stealing from old age

pensioners Tracy fell said at the

inquiry which is probing what's been

called the greatest Carriage of Justice

in British history the sub postmaster

was only 19 when she was wrongly

convicted of theft and sent to prison

for six months one of thousands of lives

damaged the inquiry has given us a

window into the heart of the Scandal and

tonight we can open it a little further

what did the post office Executives know

and

when it's been revealed that the inquiry

now has 80 covertly recorded audio tapes

of senior post office Executives during

this Scandal tonight Channel 4 News can

reveal some of the contents of what was

said by Susan kryon the then post office

senior lawyer the post office had called

in forensic accountants in 2012 to

investigate the Scandal a year later

those accountants issue their first

report and meetings are called which are

covertly recorded at one the post office

lawyer is worried about MPS in

Parliament who are campaigning to clear

the names of the sub postmasters we've

obtained a summary of some of the tapes

Susan the post office lawyer refers to

Paula Paula venel the post office boss

having a meeting with James R bunot an

MP tomorrow at 10:30 a.m. and then Susan

reports that Paula was concerned to shut

down the

MPS there is also a record here of

senior post office staff wishing to in

some way control Alan Bates and his

campaign on behalf of the sub post

Masters Justice for sub postmasters

Alliance as well as

MPS Susan the post office lawyer talks

about managing the justice for sub

postmasters Alliance and then again

Susan asks if there is any way of

shutting down the MP's

cases what's meant by shutting down

isn't explained we approached both women

for comment Paul venel declined Susan

kryon didn't respond but what about the

other people in the room also on tape

the forensic accountant second site

called in by the post office to

investigate the Scandal we asked second

site's co-director Ian Henderson what he

made of the summary of the tapes the

significance is it was yet another

attempt by post office to prevent these

matters being uncovered uh James ALB and

a small group of MPS um were determined

however that second site should be

allowed to investigate these matters

post office did not want these matters

to see the light of day and to be

investigated that's the same post office

of course who called in second site in

the first place to investigate this

whole Scandal and the more they

investigated the more they found that

the problem was in the technology the

post office was using not the sub

postmasters at all the post office would

end up severing its contract with second

s there is more the summary of the

covert recordings also show second s's

co-director Ron warmington failing to

get Vital Information from the post

office Ron says we haven't received

adequate information in any of the cases

other than Alan bates's own case Ron

says that in 15 out of 31 cases that

we've received through the office of

James Arnot we have in effect nothing so

no investigative work can realistically

commence then a possible reason for

holding back information is on the

summary it comes again from the post

office senior lawyer Susan kryon

secretly

recorded Susan has formed the view

already notified to Second site the

forensic investigators further cases

should not go through the second site

process but rather through a post office

limited managed process with senior

oversight we put this to Susan kryon and

Paula venel Paula venel declined to

comment Susan kryon didn't respond

Angela nice to meet you here to help the

recent ITV drama featured the key second

site post office

investigation the drama matches the fact

that its team remains angry about

ordinary lives

ruined two years after second site

warned the post office that prosecutions

could be unsafe and two years after the

post office's own lawyers warned them as

well Paul lenel the post office CEO said

this to a select committee of MPS in

2015 and if there had been any

miscarriages of Justice it would have

been really important to me in the post

office that that we actually surface

those um and and as the investigations

have gone through so far we've had no

evidence of that and as you'll know

we're Bound by the disclosure act to

make known anything that we come across

that that might contribute to that

you're sitting next to Paul lenel in the

select committee and she is saying there

is no evidence of miscarriages of

Justice at that moment what went through

your mind she's

lying to the select committee yes

misleading Parliament misleading

Parliament you've no doubt of that no

doubt

whatsoever and her motives would be

cover up covering out what the truth

coming

out the truth being the truth being the

problems with um Fujitsu the problems

with the Horizon the fact that post

office had known about it for many years

and did very little about about it and

were able to recover losses directly

from sub

postmasters we put that opinion to Paula

venel she declined to comment when the

inquiry started 2 years ago venel said

she was truly sorry for the suffering

caused to wrongly prosecuted sub poost

Masters and their families she fully

supports the inquiry adding that because

it's still ongoing it would be

inappropriate to comment but in the

notorious case of sub postmaster Joe

Hamilton we know the post office had

evidence that her prose ution may not be

safe years before Paul lenel said that

to Parliament here's the investigation

report into Joe Hamilton carried out by

the post office marked confidential

having analyzed The Horizon printouts

and accounting documentation I was

unable to find any evidence of theft or

that the cash figures had been

deliberately inflated yet Joe Hamilton

would be charged all the same this

report was sent to the post office in

2006 that's 9 years years before Paula

venel told MPS the post office had no

evidence of miscarriages of Justice

simply one piece of evidence of many the

post office declined to comment saying

it fully supports the public inquiry as

Joe Hamilton has told the world the post

office very clearly new and new for

years but that was not what it told

Parliament or the post Masters

themselves Alex Thompson there well the

former labor MP now Lord bunot who's

campaigned on the horizon Scandal for

years joins me now from

Westminster um a conservative MP I beg

you pardon um Lord of bunner when

they're talking about shutting down MPS

they're talking about shutting you down

aren't they they are clearly and trying

to shut down Alan Bates and the justice

for sub postmasters Alliance they had

already let's not forget shut down the

post sub postmasters Union the national

feder Federation of sub postmasters by

paying for the whole of that Union and

as a result the sub postmasters got no

help at all from their own Union but

it's interesting isn't it because MPS

are supposed to be treated with respect

they're supposed to be listened to

they're supposed to be able to Lobby on

behalf of their constituents and they

were trying to shut you down yes um

because Second Sight were getting too

close to the truth and the truth was

very damaging for the post office so

they were trying to get rid of us

Troublesome MPS as quickly as they could

they were trying to kill off the Scandal

weren't they yes they were as Ian

Henderson has just said they were trying

to cover the whole thing up and it is

always the cover up that makes things

much much worse which is why Paula vel's

said in her evidence to the select

committee something that was simply not

true well exactly I mean Ian Henderson

is is perhaps Bolder or less polite he's

quite clear he says when he heard her

say that there was no evidence of

miscarriage of Justice she was lying yes

he's in no doubt about that do you agree

I do it's quite clear the post office

had instructed its own insurers two

years before she said that to the select

committee that there was a risk that

there were miscarriages of Justice am I

to believe that that didn't get to the

chief executive I'm not um so clearly

the post office was lying to the uh to

the select committee and I wrote to the

speaker two or three years ago to say

that that lie had been told and that

evidence needed to be and that something

needed to be done about it it is getting

worse and worse exactly on that point

about something needs to be done it is a

very serious issue isn't it to lie to

Parliament to lie to MPS at a select

committee very very

so what happens

now well I think it is time that the

police began to operate with rather

more speed and uh and Effectiveness than

they so far have it's now three years

since Mr Justice Fraser referred two

people to the police for uh

investigation into possible perjury in

front of the courts but I think that uh

we mustn't wait for the post office in

quiry to produce its results I think the

police should be acting now on the basis

of what we know right now that there's

no need to wait for the inquiry criminal

prosecutions criminal investigations

should be ongoing yes the post

postmasters deserve that Justice is

visited on those who did them so much

wrong as quickly as Justice was visited

on the postmasters themselves I mean one

of the other bits of the information in

the film really just asking you in terms

of your source of personal involvement

was your constituent Joe Hamilton you

know the information in the film shows

that there was no evidence of theft it

was written down but they prosecuted her

anyway that is well known it'll be well

known to you but I wonder does it still

have the ability to shock you what is

being uncovered at the moment the ground

that we're going over now this is a

story of profound corrupt

at an organization owned by and overseen

by the government I think it is deeply

shocking

yes Lord of bnot thank you so much for

talking to us this evening thank you