How to Position your Startup with Rob Kaminski

Summary

In this insightful presentation, Rob shares valuable strategies for early-stage B2B startups to achieve product-market fit. He emphasizes the importance of identifying and dominating specific market segments, presenting a framework for crafting compelling positioning and messaging. Rob highlights the fragmentation of B2B markets and the need to start small, focusing on nailing one use case before expanding. He provides actionable principles for effective messaging, such as leading with capabilities, sharing first-order benefits, and addressing surface-level problems. Overall, Rob's practical advice and proven methodologies offer a roadmap for founders to navigate the complexities of finding product-market fit and driving growth.

Takeaways

• 😄 Product-market fit is achieved when you can repeatedly find, sell, serve, and retain customers across the same use case.
• 😎 B2B markets are incredibly fragmented, and product-market fit is a collection of multiple fits across different segments or 'cubes'.
• 🤔 When positioning your product, focus on a specific use case and target audience, rather than trying to appeal to everyone.
• 💡 Lead with the capabilities of your product (what it can do) and the first-order benefits, not abstract outcomes or higher-level benefits.
• 🎯 Message on the surface-level problems your target customers are facing, not the root cause you're solving.
• 🌱 Start small and dominate a narrow market before expanding, even for successful startups like Facebook and PayPal.
• 📈 Achieving product-market fit takes years, not months, for most startups. Expect a 5+ year journey.
• 💰 Raise funds only after achieving a good portion of product-market fit, not to figure it out along the way.
• 🔍 Immerse yourself in your target customer base to truly understand their problems and get qualitative insights.
• 🧭 If customers aren't willing to give you their time and money, it's likely a market problem, not a product problem.

Q & A

What is the 'leaky bucket' concept in SaaS?

The 'leaky bucket' concept refers to a situation where a SaaS product is able to attract customers but fails to retain them due to the product not fully meeting their needs or expectations.

What does Fletch specialize in?

Fletch is a product marketing consultancy for early-stage B2B startups, focusing on positioning, messaging, and translating messaging into clear homepage copy.

How does Fletch define product-market fit?

Fletch defines product-market fit as the ability to repeatedly find, sell, serve, and retain customers across the same use case.

What are the two approaches to finding product-market fit mentioned in the script?

The two approaches are starting with a market problem or insight and then figuring out what to build to capture that opportunity, and starting by building a product with potential use cases but without a clear target audience.

What is the 'Minimum Viable Positioning' framework?

The Minimum Viable Positioning framework is a guide developed by Fletch to help founders sort through different positioning options to find the most clear and compelling for their stage.

Why is it important to start small when finding product-market fit?

Starting small is crucial because it allows a startup to dominate early markets, ensuring a strong foothold before expanding to capture larger segments.

How does Fletch recommend explaining a product for positioning?

Fletch recommends finding reference points to explain your product either based on its use case or by comparing it to known products, methods, or competitors as competitive anchors.

Why is it advised against overcomplicating positioning?

Overcomplicating positioning leads to analysis paralysis, preventing clear decision-making and delaying testing of positioning in the real world where feedback is crucial.

What is the importance of focusing on go-to-market fit first?

Focusing on go-to-market fit first is important because it brings a startup closer to customers, offering a better view into the problem and increasing the chances of finding a market fit.

How should startups view their market when considering product-market fit?

Startups should view their market in detail, recognizing its fragmentation and understanding that product-market fit at scale is actually a collection of multiple fits within smaller, targeted segments.

Outlines

00:00

🛠 Fixing the Leaky Bucket in Product Market Fit

This paragraph introduces the concept of addressing a 'leaky bucket' in software as a service (SaaS) startups, signifying a situation where a product doesn't fully meet market needs despite identifying a real problem and a viable sales approach. It emphasizes the necessity of refining the solution to ensure it adequately solves the identified market problem. The speaker introduces themselves as a co-founder of Fletch, a consultancy specializing in product marketing for B2B startups, highlighting their focus on positioning, messaging, and translating these elements into effective homepage copy. They share their intent to discuss product-market fit, positioning, and messaging, aiming to provide insights derived from their experience with over 150 B2B SaaS startups.

05:00

📈 Achieving Product Market Fit and Understanding Market Fragmentation

This paragraph elaborates on achieving product-market fit in B2B sectors, stressing the importance of understanding market fragmentation, especially in horizontal markets. The speaker outlines a model consisting of four key pillars essential for product-market fit: finding, selling, serving, and retaining customers consistently across the same use case. They introduce the concept that product-market fit at scale is actually a collection of multiple fits within different segments of a fragmented market, illustrated by examples like Airtable and Loom, to highlight the necessity of specificity in targeting market segments for effective positioning and marketing.

10:02

🎯 Simplifying Positioning and Selecting Target Segments

In this paragraph, the speaker simplifies the concept of positioning to deciding 'who you are for' and 'what your product does' with a focus on uniqueness. Using examples like DuckDuckGo, Canva, and Mercury, the importance of clear, specific, and relatable positioning is emphasized. The discussion includes the significance of starting small, focusing intensely on a narrowly defined market to dominate early on. Examples of early positioning by successful companies like Facebook, eBay, and PayPal serve to underline the effectiveness of this focused approach. The speaker advises against broad, undefined positioning, advocating for precision in targeting to achieve early success.

15:04

🔍 Developing a Minimum Viable Positioning Framework

This paragraph introduces the 'Minimum Viable Positioning Framework,' a tool designed to help founders identify the most clear and compelling way to present their product to the ideal customer segment. It stresses starting with a market-first approach, focusing on specific departments or teams within a business, and using competitive anchors and use cases as reference points for product explanation. Examples including Slack's various positioning strategies underscore the adaptability and effectiveness of the framework. The narrative also touches on audience-agnostic positioning for broader market appeal, as demonstrated by companies like Loom and CLE, showcasing different approaches to explaining and positioning products.

20:06

📝 Key Principles for Effective Messaging

This paragraph outlines key principles for creating effective messaging that aligns with positioning strategies. It warns against generic messaging that tries to appeal to too broad an audience, instead advocating for marketing to specific segments based on use cases rather than abstract outcomes. Examples of missteps in messaging from larger companies illustrate common pitfalls. The importance of leading with product capabilities, sharing direct benefits, and addressing surface-level problems is highlighted. The speaker uses practical examples to demonstrate how specificity and clarity in messaging can significantly impact a startup's ability to communicate its value proposition effectively.

25:06

🚀 Transitioning from Positioning to Scale and Investor Expectations

The final paragraph discusses the challenges and strategies involved in transitioning from initial positioning efforts to scaling a business. It touches on the importance of identifying product or market problems through customer engagement and sales efforts. The speaker reflects on the necessity of closely engaging with one's target market to understand their needs and responses to the product. Additionally, considerations for when and why to seek investment are briefly explored, emphasizing the importance of achieving a level of predictability and repeatability in business operations before pursuing significant funding for scaling.

Keywords

💡Product Market Fit

Product market fit refers to the alignment between a product and the needs of its target market. In the video, Rob emphasizes that achieving product market fit means being able to "repeatedly find, sell, serve, and retain customers across the same use case." This concept is central to the discussion, as Rob provides a framework for early-stage startups to identify and address the various components of product market fit, such as market problem, go-to-market fit, and delivering value.

💡Positioning

Positioning refers to how a company presents and differentiates its product or service in the market. Rob stresses the importance of clear and compelling positioning, especially for early-stage startups. He introduces the concept of "minimum viable positioning," which involves identifying the target audience, the use case, and the competitive landscape, and crafting a positioning statement that resonates with potential customers. Positioning is a crucial step in finding product market fit, as it helps communicate the product's value proposition effectively.

💡Messaging

Messaging refers to the language and content used to communicate a product's value proposition to potential customers. Rob provides several principles for effective messaging, such as focusing on use cases rather than abstract outcomes, leading with capabilities rather than benefits, and addressing surface-level problems rather than root causes. Effective messaging is essential for engaging with potential customers and facilitating product market fit.

💡Go-to-Market Fit

Go-to-market fit is one of the pillars of product market fit, as described by Rob. It refers to the ability to repeatedly get in front of the target audience and effectively sell the product. Rob emphasizes the importance of having access to potential customers and being able to engage with them consistently. Achieving go-to-market fit is a critical step in finding product market fit, as it ensures that the product can be effectively marketed and sold to the right audience.

💡Market Fragmentation

Market fragmentation refers to the idea that B2B markets are not homogeneous but rather divided into smaller segments or "cubes," each with its own specific needs and characteristics. Rob uses the concept of market fragmentation to highlight the importance of starting small and focusing on a specific use case or segment when seeking product market fit. By addressing a smaller, more targeted segment, startups can more effectively refine their positioning, messaging, and go-to-market strategies before expanding to larger markets.

💡Minimum Viable Positioning

Minimum viable positioning is a framework introduced by Rob and his co-founder Anthony Pierry. It is a structured approach to identifying the most clear and compelling positioning for an early-stage startup. The framework involves identifying the target audience, the use case, and potential competitive anchors or reference points. By following this framework, startups can develop a positioning statement that resonates with their ideal customers and serves as a foundation for effective messaging and go-to-market strategies.

💡Use Case

A use case refers to a specific scenario or context in which a product or service is used by a customer. Rob emphasizes the importance of focusing on specific use cases rather than abstract outcomes when positioning and messaging a product. By clearly articulating the use case, startups can communicate the concrete value and capabilities of their product, making it easier for potential customers to understand and relate to the offering. Use cases are a central component of Rob's minimum viable positioning framework.

💡Capability

In the context of messaging, capability refers to what a customer would actually do with a product's features. Rob introduces the concept of "capability" as a bridge between a product's features and its benefits. He suggests leading with capabilities in messaging, as they help potential customers understand how the product can address their specific use case before communicating the broader benefits and outcomes. By focusing on capabilities, startups can make their messaging more concrete and relatable.

💡Surface-Level Problem

Surface-level problems refer to the immediate challenges or pain points that potential customers are experiencing, as opposed to the root causes of those problems. Rob advises startups to message around surface-level problems, as these are more likely to resonate with potential customers and earn a conversation. By addressing the issues that customers are actively struggling with, startups can establish a connection and then educate customers about the deeper root causes that their product addresses.

💡Customer Interaction

Customer interaction refers to the direct engagement and communication between a startup and its potential customers. Rob emphasizes the importance of spending significant time interacting with customers, whether through social media, consultation calls, or other channels. This level of customer interaction allows startups to gain valuable insights into the problems, needs, and pain points of their target audience, which is essential for refining positioning, messaging, and product development efforts. Customer interaction is a crucial component of finding product market fit.

Highlights

Introduction of the concept of 'leaky bucket' in SaaS, highlighting the importance of aligning market problems with solutions to ensure product-market fit.

Fletch's approach to product marketing consultancy for early-stage B2B startups, focusing on positioning, messaging, and translating messaging into clear homepage copy.

The emphasis on product-market fit as being composed of four key pillars: finding, selling, serving, and retaining customers across the same use case.

The importance of starting with a market problem or insight into the market for finding product-market fit, as opposed to starting with a product in search of a market.

Highlighting the issue of market fragmentation in B2B and the necessity of understanding this to effectively find product-market fit.

Introduction of the concept that product-market fit at scale is actually a collection of multiple product-market fits.

The role of segmentation and positioning in addressing the fragmentation of B2B markets, emphasizing the need to start small and be specific.

Introducing the Minimum Viable Positioning Framework to help founders sort through positioning options to find the most clear and compelling for their stage.

The importance of being close to customers to gain a better view into the problem and thus, a more effective go-to-market strategy.

Differentiation between market problem and product-focused approaches in finding product-market fit.

The need to understand and address the specific details and slices of a market to effectively position and message a product.

The concept of product-market fit as requiring repeatability and predictability in finding, selling, serving, and retaining customers.

Positioning simply by answering key questions: who the product is for and what does it do, and what's unique about it.

The strategic importance of starting small in the market to dominate early markets before expanding.

The necessity for founders to make clear decisions on who their product is for, to avoid diluting their positioning and messaging.

Transcripts

the product doesn't do what it says it

does and you see this in SAS you'll hear

the terminology like a leaky bucket it

means you don't have all the way fit you

found you found a real Market problem

you found a real way to sell but your

solution's off and so you that's where

you start to fix fix the Leaky bucket

and there's a t you start to get into a

bunch of stuff okay so super excited to

be here um just to kind of set the stage

a little bit for those of you who don't

know I'm a co-founder of Fletch uh we

are a product marketing consultancy for

early stage B2B startups uh we really

focus uh we have a product IED service

that we focus and deliver for uh early

stage Founders to focus on positioning

uh and messaging and then we help them

translate that messaging into clear

homepage copy as a reflection of that

positioning we've had the opportunity to

work with about 150 B2B SAS startups

most of them horizontal and so today I'm

really excited want to share with you

guys um a bunch of stuff that we've

learned along the way the the topic

areas that I want to cover I first want

to get into product Market fit and B2B

there tons of definitions out there we

of course have our own definition that

we think is a little bit more useful to

help early stage Founders think through

U the different pieces of what it takes

to find fit and so we'll start there and

then translating off of of our product

Market fit model is really I want to

share some insights around how to

approach positioning especially for the

early stage when it's really squishy

really difficult to Think Through uh and

so I want to we'll introduce some key

principles for that and then I want to

share something that my co-founder

Anthony Pierry and I have developed that

we call the minimum viable positioning

framework uh it's a pretty much our

guide when we work with Founders to help

sort through all the different

positioning options as a way to find the

one that's the most clear and the most

compelling for the stage that they're at

and then we'll wrap up uh with really

how to put that positioning into work

into into messaging in other words like

what are the supporting arguments of a

positioning and how should you think

about that as an early stage founder so

that's what we're going to cover uh

hopefully we'll stay around the 20-

minute Mark leave a lot of time for Q&A

um and we can double click into this as

we go so uh the first thing I want to

introduce is uh our product Market fit

model and for us we think product Market

fit is made up of four key pillars that

really represent two different kinds of

fit and you can see the definition at

the bottom really thumbs this up and

then I'll kind of walk through each

piece but we believe you have product

Market fit when you can repeatedly find

sell serve and retain customers across

the same use case uh and we'll double

click on like what is use case is it

relates to segmentation all those things

and so what we hope this model serves as

as you can see sort of these core

questions here across these pillars as

more of a a litmus test of how you're

doing and even how you're thinking about

the different parts of fit in the very

very early stage you won't have good

answers to any of these questions to

start with and that's okay um what we

believe is that it's usually best to

start to seek out some version of the go

to market fit first because you're just

closer to the customers it's going to

give you a better view into the problem

um but there is no specific order to

solve for these things but from that

conceptual standpoint and so we're not

going to walk through this whole

detailed image you can go uh check this

out on my LinkedIn what I want to

highlight here is what we found working

with all these different Founders uh is

really the pieces at the bottom here

there's two core approaches to finding

fit and we see these patterns show up

across a lot of different startups one

of them is starting with a market

problem or an insight into the market

and then trying to figure out well what

do we build to best capture that

opportunity we we're big Believers in

this approach because you basically by

default are already vetting that the

Market exists and it's more of an

exercise of like how do I solve for that

third pillar of that delivering value

that that I shared on the first model

how do I build the right product to

capture the problem in the market that I

know is there and so we see this a lot

when people are subject matter experts

in an area already or they're solving

their own problem the other side of the

equation uh and we do see a lot of this

especially now um with generative Ai and

these new

technologies um which you can even

pattern match this back to like when the

internet became started to kind of merg

as this adopted technology is folks just

start building Cool Stuff uh and it is

cool but they don't really know who it's

for and this creates a lot of issues

even tied into like how exactly did they

build it so oftentimes we see folks

building their product to be flexible to

do anything but that creates a real

challenge a real issue when you actually

try and move into like how do I go to

market how do I actually sell this to

people and so these two fundamental

approaches I'm going to speak mostly

from the market

problem in search of a product but these

principles will apply across the

board there's another key thing around

product Market fit that I think gets

lost in the shuffle a lot especially in

B2B and especially in horizontal markets

is that they are incredibly fragmented

and I have some visuals to guide this

and so when you're early stage it's

important to understand this because the

issue we see especially with a lot of

venture back Founders or Founders that

think they want to raise money is they

go paint this picture of a huge Market

problem but then when they move in the

operational piece of actually finding

fit and going to Market they drastically

underestimate how fragmented that market

is and all the required pieces and so

what we like to say is that product

Market fit at scale is actually a

collection of product Market fits and

there's a lot of ways that this shows up

it kind of depends on the product and

the market that you're in the example

here is obviously for air table big

flexible platform product can do a lot

of different things they have found fit

to varying degrees of success across

each of these these for specific users

by specific teams from a B2B standpoint

they have industry focuses that they're

delivering solutions for and so this is

the thing that we try and drill into

when we work with early stage is like

can we get

specific so taking that a little bit

further this is really representing the

fragmentation that we see and so the the

piece I just hit usually if you're

raising money or even just putting

together your thoughts this is probably

how you're thinking about your market

today and what we encourage is to think

about your Market from a much more

detailed standpoint I brought up the

concept of slices the biggest slices

that you want to make sure to nail and

and by the way there's more slices so

this is a visual we call this our Cube

uh it's in 3D the dimensions of markets

actually go into 4D and 5D and 6D but we

can't visualize those so this is the

best we're going to get for now and so

the idea here even if we take a company

like Loom is that horizontal product

they can slice up the way they build

their product and Market their product

in really into these smaller cubes and

what we see is that as you move into the

smaller Cube the more effective your

positioning is going to become the

clearer your message is going to be and

the more effective your goom Market

programs in your likelihood of finding

one of these small pieces of fit are are

and so it's really important when you're

when you're thinking about building your

product to really think in terms of

specific

details um we'll share another example

here for aana and there's another point

I want to get across so very similar

example here in terms of how we're

slicing these up again Asana L can be

used for a lot of different even

horizontal use cases and even these are

big and can be broken down into smaller

cubes why this be starts to become

important is because this unit here as

you'll see we we use this unit as an

approach for a specific segment

positioning it's The Guiding Light for

how you're going to do all your

marketing and right now I'm showing it

just for all the assets you need to

create but it also is going to impact

the channels that you use and it's also

then going to impact not only how you're

building your product but how do you

price your product does it actually fit

based on the channel that you need to

use and the assets you're going to need

to sell it and can you get all this to

fit together and so this is where we

start to move down layers of detail in

specifically on that left side of that

product Market fit model that go to

market fit of can I can I repeatably get

in front of this group in this example

HR folks in healthcare that are doing

project management can I repeatably get

in front of them and then do I have all

the assets and things I need to say to

sell them and get them into my product

and so this is really important the

takeaway here is that B2B markets are

incredibly fragmented product Market fit

is actually made up of multiple fits and

you have to start small the last

component of this from a fit level I I

brought up channels this starts to get

us into marketing motions as well um

this is another way to view how to be

specific and so the tricky thing to kind

of hit on the same concept I introduced

is that most folks who raise especially

seed stage venture capital usually fall

into one of these buckets in their story

where they are leveraging some new

technology they basically some like all

these different use cases that the

product could be for and they say look

how big that market could be if we

figure this out the the issue is again

different visualization is that in order

to penetrate this Market we actually

first have to penetrate a single use

case or a single segment and then

sequence and stack all of those to

either become a horizontal Suite or to

become a platform

and so um when we're working with

Founders we're often trying to get them

to shrink their positioning shrink their

messaging uh and I have some examples

here to kind of walk you guys through

and some good principles to think about

that but this is how we think about fit

in B2B markets and so now leveraging

that understanding of fragmented markets

and smaller segments and product Market

fits multiple um let's talk a little bit

about key principles for positioning and

then we'll unpack this into

messaging positioning often

gets over

complicated uh it's often what we see a

lot lot happen with early stage is

there's this analysis paralysis that

happens where you're looking for the

perfect way to slice and dice and

capture multiple segments and all these

different things when you boil

positioning down it's really just

answering a couple key questions and

this is like the ultimate boil down

version but it's basically who are you

for and what does the product do and

then what's unique about it right so

I've added three but this is this boils

it down to two and so if we look at

these examples customer segmentation and

product differentiation duck ducko a

search engine for privacy conscious

individuals canva a design tool for

non-designers mercury basically a bank

for startups like it really can be this

simple and it's funny when we do this

work we can often uncover options for

startups positioning in as quick as a

few minutes a few hours um but they they

tend to want to look for the perfect

approach and the the truth is is that

that answer you can't come come up with

in a room you actually have to put your

positioning out into the world see how

it gets engaged with see what the

reflection of feedback is back as you're

testing your messaging to smoke test

some of this stuff and so don't over

complicate positioning that's number one

um the other piece for early stage I

know we got a lot of folks who are idea

stage MVP stage even those with uh

paying customers is is also valid for

but you have to start small even when

you look at some of these huge

successful startups some of the biggest

ones here today their very first markets

and their very first positioning was

hyperfocused and the idea here is you

want to be able to dominate your early

markets not just be a oh that's nice

we're making progress but absolutely

Dominate and so like these examples

should stand out obviously the

Facebook's an obvious one but like the

eBay and the PayPal ones are really

interesting like eBay just going to

people who sell collector's items sure

they wanted to sell everything they

wanted to get the you know the moms and

dads who were doing garage sailing but

that's not who they focused on first

they had to go where the pain was the

biggest where the volume was the biggest

and then use that as a building block to

snowball into these other markets uh

PayPal is just like the exact example on

that you see PayPal on just about every

checkout page they're using it for

individual consumer Toc consumer

payments they started just with eBay

sellers they basically went over to eBay

and they're like hey we know you have a

lot of high high transaction folks that

are dealing with checks and all this

different stuff and they went and they

won literally 90% 100% of that market

before they then said okay who's next

we've proven this works and so you got

to start

small another way to think about well

how small it should be relative to where

you're at and so it's just really funny

we get a lot of um CED and series a

companies that come to us and especially

the seed ones are usually doing a couple

hundred thousand in ARR and you talk to

them about their positioning and they

they're thinking in terms of like how

are we going to be a$1 million doll

company and that's so flawed you can't

your growth's not going to happen that

way overnight and what they end up with

is really watered down positioning which

leads to really vague messaging and it

just doesn't work and so you got to

start really close to where you're at

and again if you're just in that idea

stage like you're kind of just

positioning for can I get a single

customer right uh and that'll help you

shrink pretty aggressively either by

location like who are your friends who's

in your network uh and then again using

that as building blocks to scale

out um another one here and you'll see

this come back in me in messaging as

well is it's some point you will have to

make a decision this is that core

question um one of the core questions

that I talked about of like what comes

into positioning it's deciding who

you're

for and there's a counterintuitive

principle here that and it's a mistake

that Founders make they think if I just

leave my options open there'll be more

potentials for Revenue I'll cast a

bigger net uh and then I'll just figure

it out I'll see which one's best there

is a time and place for that very early

stage when you're really not sure and

you're just you're talking to people

that are maybe in your network and you

could throw out these ideas and you're

looking for that poll but if you're

actually positioning it's really about

making that choice uh and that's what

this visual is meant to represent and

this is that first step toward

repeatability when we think about our

definition of product Market

fit when you double click on that piece

um and so how do you make that decision

there's the way and we use this as a

tool to help Founders make that choice

because some of the founders who come to

us do have a million in ARR or more

multiple Millions but when you start to

look at that Revenue what you'll usually

find especially an early stage is it's

coming from a lot of different folks

right if we go back to the cube it's

coming from different parts of the cube

different Industries slightly different

use cases well we came in through the

marketing team over here we actually won

with the engineering team over here

those are signals that you have traction

and possibly not fit fit is represented

on the right hand side from a go to

market perspective is it repeatable and

anyone who's ever been in really any

company but especially a startup that's

trying to grow you'll know in terms of

how they they operationalize their

decisions who has fit and who doesn't

the ones where all their processes are

breaking and you can't figure out what

to put on the road map is usually the

one that's company a they're just broad

they have multiple positions and they

haven't really carved out a core

position and they haven't really found

fit with any given segment and so we're

trying to encourage Founders here to

move don't be company a be Company B um

there's a time for company a in

experimentation but then you have to

make that

choice and so okay those are our

principles for positioning to to recap

think small in the early days position

relative to where you are and what the

actual Milestone is for you in terms of

goals um and and in doing so it's really

about just making some simple choices

who you're for um what you're building

it to do and if you get those right um

you're on the the right path and so now

I want to share with you what we call

our minimum viable positioning framework

this gets a little bit more t IAL into

how we do

this uh and so you'll you'll recognize

some similarities here even to the cube

model and how we think about things and

so the the flow when we're working with

with Founders um is usually starting

Market first as I said in the very

beginning we were big Believers and like

you got to know who you're building for

what problem are you solving and it

starts with who has the the freaking

problem um in B2B there are two elements

to pull on there uh the department um

sometimes we'll call this team or the

champion and and what we say in B2B is

because it's multi-person you want to

pick the person or team that is close

enough to the problem you have but has

enough influence to basically be your

biggest cheerleader and get you in front

of a bunch of different audiences and

stakeholders to eventually sell your

deal um and we would say position for

them and then you can always support

with additional messages for these

different audiences but this is going to

be the one to help you translate that

company type usually is industry

sometimes it's business model but it can

also be other criteria and things like

well what teex stack are they on and

like what integration is it that's going

to power this eventual use case that we

have and so that's really step one here

is identify the audience of who you're

positioning for who you're actually

going to message for and then there's

two approaches um that we've uncovered

doing this with over 150 companies to

actually explain your product and the

idea is it's all about finding reference

points to explain your product on or

against the most direct one is on use

case telling them exactly what they

would use your product to do um for very

novel new products this isn't always the

best route because the use case isn't

that well known it's like well we're not

really doing that which is brings us

into the competitive anchors and even

though we use the word competitive here

these are again just reference points so

it's not always a replacement even

though a lot of times it is these are

tools methods existing product

categories or sometimes specific

competitors for people to understand

when they might use your product and so

this is the model and example is

probably the best way um to unpack this

a bit so I actually uh I just posted a

version of this today but if we took

slack as an example and again everyone

in the room knows who this is we're in

Tech and so you kind of have to flash

back to when slack was beginning they

are horizontal they also have to start

kind of Bottoms Up from those smaller

cubes and the way they think about

messaging themselves and so you start to

get a sense here of like well these are

the different teams they could have

positioned for in the early days as well

as the different company types that

they're now and they have go to market

programs that now span all of these and

what we surface here are potential use

cases and potential competitive anchors

to explain you against so if we take

this one here basically when we do this

with Founders we flush them all out and

then we basically pressure test and say

like which one is the product actually

really good at related to where the

problem sucks the most and which way of

explaining it's the most compelling and

so if we take engineers at software

companies doing code reviews you can

start to imagine and this flushes this

out what the actual expression of that

positioning could look like

um where you're actually saying like hey

you would use slack to do code reviews

and here's exactly how you do it and the

benefit that you could unpack and slack

actually does this if you go to one of

their sub Pages this is how they're

leading with a message this how they're

positioning for engineering teams um in

one of their subg go to market

programs now what if slack this one

starts went the competitive route and

not only does this one go the

competitive route but this is actually

and I'll share you a little bit more in

a second this is audience agnostic

positioning which we don't always

encourage you could see the grade out

there's no Department there's no company

type this is what they have on their

homepage and so they're trying to speak

to all of these audiences which I guess

they can get by with a little bit today

now that they have a little bit more

brand recognition but here they're

positioning against email and so when

they're explaining themselves to support

this positioning instead of saying

here's all the use cases they reference

email as a way to then understand oh I I

know what I would use slack for uh and

then they can craft a message to support

how they actually do that a couple more

examples here I brought up audience

agnostic positioning in that slack

example here are two more especially for

horizontal companies where and Loom did

this for a while in their growth stage

where they positioned against very uh

not email but unproductive meetings and

in a competitive framework another thing

to keep in mind usually when you're

doing competiting especially when it's a

replacement angle it's a reflection of

energy you're trying to say don't go

left go right don't book a meeting send

a video link instead that's what Loom

was trying to do by creating that

reference point as a way to explain the

product CLE did it a little differently

they weren't trying to get you to stop

scheduling meetings online that's what

you were doing that's the use case the

activity that's already being carried

out they're simply saying we've got a

10x better way to do it and so the

energy is more of a capture of existing

energy and saying hey we do it better

we're not trying to reflect the energy

and so these are the options that

surface themselves and and what what

will happen now is you'll start to see

these show up likely in in messaging

everywhere um we can't unse see them as

you progress and even in like if you go

dig into these Pages they're likely

using some layering of both approach

from a positioning standpoint it's

really just a matter of what you're

leading with what's the tip of the spear

to get people to understand you that

starts to surface your potential value

related to your

application and then final example here

uh in the canvas this is our company

Fletch we are very focused right so when

we think about minimum viable

positioning not only are we anchoring on

use case in the way we position

ourselves uh but we also have the rest

of these these boxes filled out in

detail in the way we explain ourselves

and so when you think about how you

might apply this it's really about how

many of these anchoring points on the

lefthand side that represent the market

elements can you lean into to more

clearly explain your product and as you

might imagine the more elements you have

the more specific that cube is right

we're basically picking a more specific

segment in the

market and so that's our that's really

how we view positioning our minimum

viable positioning framework to surface

options um and really again it's about

figuring out what's the clearest most

compelling way to explain your product

to your ideal

customer um I have some key principles

on messaging I said I'd keep this to 20

minutes and so I'm going to I'm going to

fly through these a little bit they're

very straightforward um and we can

always Circle back and and double click

into some of these examples the

principles that I want to share and

really the first one I really hit home

because it ties directly into

positioning but it's a mistake we see

all the time Market to your s not your

Tam Market on use cases not outcomes

we'll talk about this lead with

capabilities not benefits share first

order benefits not second and third

order and then message on surface level

problems and so I'll try and do a let's

do like a minute per on each of these

and then we'll get to some good Q&A and

so this is probably one of the biggest

mistakes we see I've hit on this a bit

so I'm actually just going to share with

you an example of what this starts to

look like if you start to message to too

many segments at once when you're early

um flat out it's just not going to work

no one knows who you are you're going to

be broad you're going to end up with

messages like this where you basically

say it could do anything and it could be

for anyone like you got to avoid this um

we see this show up uh and sometimes we

like to poke fun of it at larger

companies um we see this show up all the

time these are actually messages that

were used by very successful companies

uh and we think they were doing

themselves a disservice one platform

many solutions one workspace endless

Solutions connect everything achieve any

thing and this again was a was a real

one that we saw that uh we can't believe

they're they're using that as a message

Market use cases not outcomes so um what

this really gets into is avoid

abstractions avoid what and this is

counter to what you hear in a lot of

like marketing gurus that are out there

um that say sell the progress sell the

outcome and there's some truth in that

you do sell the outcome but when you're

positioning and doing early messaging

the burden is on them even just

understanding what the heck you do and

who they're for and so you can't do

outcomes until they're clear on what the

use case is and what they' actually do

with the product and so we've got some

funny examples here um real

advertisement on the Le hand side

actually telling you what you could do

with that you would go swimming in these

shoes if they heard a B2B marketer they

probably wouldn't do this and we see SAS

and B2B scattered with this kind of

thing all the time um Apple we joke

Apple does a really wonderful job and gr

granted they are a consumer product that

has a physical good so it's kind of

baked in but for them if it was SAS

they'd probably lead into one of these

messages I'll skip through some examples

here this is really the key thing I want

to want to be able to share be concrete

and we see this a lot executive ego is

same thing as Founders Vision be

specific on what your product can do

today those use cases and ignore these

abstract outcomes that happen later so

really key principle in our

framework next one here lead with

capabilities not benefits this goes hand

inand with the previous uh principle

that we have but this is where it it

really starts to get into like get into

the product and we we built our value

prop framework um one of the core

elements in there that we think was

missing of like what's in a value

proposition is this this terminology we

call capability and the way we defined

it is it's the it's what someone would

actually do with the feature and so loom

video and screen recording what would I

do with it record a quick uh

demonstration videos to share with your

team benefit the outcome of using that

capability and so this is really

important here capabilities end up being

um not only the bridge to benefits but

they're the thing you should lead with

right so they they're the connecting

piece of oh there's the use case here's

the capability for how I would actually

address that use case here's the benefit

of the capability and then I can get to

these higher level second order outcomes

as I'll speak to in a moment so really

important and sorry for flying around

but we I want to hit on these and get to

the get to your's questions uh share

first order benefits not multi-order

benefits and so assuming your leading

with use case and supporting with

capabilities then we talk about benefits

and these come in a lot of different

flavors this is the key visual that I

want to

share the core takeaway here is your

your broader outcomes and benefits are

going to be your least differentiated

and in

B2B all roads lead to get more customers

save time make more money grow revenue

of some way shape or form but everybody

says this and so like if you say this

it's it's just not differentiated right

and so what we say is pull come back to

as close to the product as you can and

speak to those benefits all right so

Asana your team will complete projects

way faster it's like that's if you use

their project management tool that's a

first order benefit that you could use

to message you could always walk it out

well if I complete projects faster I'll

launch more features if I launch more

features I'll increase my customers will

be happier if my customers are happier

they'll probably tell more people about

it and if they tell more people about it

more people probably get more customers

and more customers means more Revenue

there's such a tendency to message out

here and when you sell you do have to

eventually get to this on a personalized

level but when you position in Market

you got to stay closer to here one more

example here just to kind of hit this

home like real uh real messaging in the

wild none of these products directly

compete with each other we got gong

that's like Revenue intelligence you

know listening in on sales calls Mutiny

really website personalization fcus is a

product LED growth dream data is a

attribution tool they're all completely

different serving very different use

cases they all say grow revenue and they

all sound alike and they're doing

themselves a disservice from a

positioning standpoint okay last one

here message on surface level problems

so like the the final piece of like the

the value proposition in our in our

model and our framework um we see this a

lot with and this is well-intentioned

but this issue happens um yeah we we'll

work at this example

example the idea here is that your

target prospects and customers likely

don't know as much about the problem

you're solving because if you're

building your product from a really

differentiated way usually it means

you're solving it from a core first

principle standpoint so like core

problem and so if we walk out this

example uh there could be tempting let's

say you're a warehouse solution um that

you basically have an efficient rotation

system for warehouses so that packages

are always delivered on time it can be

tempting to mesent message near the

bottom down here where um you're really

speaking to like is your Warehouse shift

rotation system not very efficient your

target audience probably doesn't think

of this right and so when we go back up

to the surface this is like what are

they really struggling with these are

the things they're struggling with well

our packages keep getting delayed well

why are they getting delayed uh well the

loading process takes longer than we we

realize why does it take longer well we

have really limited staff to load the

trucks why do you have limited staff

because employees have been taking

unscheduled time off why are employees

taking unscheduled time off because we

don't have an efficient system right and

so even if this is the problem you're

solving you have to message on the

struggling moments because this is

what's going to earn you a conversation

where then you can educate them and

bring them down to the root cause of

this and so same idea here and then

we'll jump to questions but for gong um

gong basically is solving at the very

core it's a data Silo problem data's

everywhere it's not connected and then

there's all these lost insights but if

you go to a VP of sales and tell him

he's got a data Silo problem he's gonna

look at you weird and be like get out of

here I don't what are you talking about

data Silo problem but if you go to that

VP of sales and you say hey I bet you

listen to one of your your reps and

they're not using the most up-to-date

pitch they're likely going to change

their tune B oh my gosh that's exactly

what I'm struggling with with and then

you create this opportunity for dialogue

and conversation around like well how

are you actually going to make sure that

my rep is using the right sales pitch

and this goes into then like you can

apply your product into this piece and

so last principle for us message on

service level problems and not uh root

cause problems when it comes to your

marketing all right and that is uh what

I wanted to cover um probably a good

segue into Q&A and uh I will be able to

hang around also for a bit of the the

networking awesome awesome thank you so

much for that presentation Rob I think

the content was amazing the folks agree

you can probably see all the emojis on

your screen right now a ton of Applause

Hearts all that good stuff and also a

really cool thing is we had over in fact

we still have over 300 people uh live

with us so yeah awesome I you're a

pretty popular guy like like ahan

said totally appreciate you all sticking

around and uh thanks for joining us

today what's the best way Daniel to

maybe knife into some of these questions

awesome so what I'll do is I'll just

bring uh the questions on stage one by

one and we can kind of go through them

uh I know you spoke about this briefly

at the start of your presentation but

just for the folks uh in the audience

could you maybe talk about this again

how do you know when you've achieved

product Market fit for an early stage

startup

yeah it this is one of those funny

things where um if you have to ask you

don't have it kind of a thing and so

some of the other definitions that come

in that I think are more

qualitative um the one that I I've

always quite liked U just from a

qualitative nature and I believe it's

Michael Cel at YC talks about it of like

it's basically when people are pulling

the product out of your hand faster than

you can actually build it right so

things are fundamentally breaking the

issue is that's not a very helpful

definition right and so for us I I come

back of like how do I know I have fit it

starts to get when it really comes back

to two words predictability and

repeatability across everything that

you're doing and so in our model when we

think about repeatability can I continue

to get in front of new prospects that I

that I think will likely buy my product

right and that's part of that go to

market fit if you get in front of them

and that's really the name of the game

for early stage you're going to have

some success and then then the question

is can I repeatedly close them like how

good am I at closing them right that

solves for the first half of the

equation of can I show value can I show

that credibility and trust that I

actually can solve the problem enough

for them to give me money big part of it

then they come into the

product you actually have to get them to

value and so it's very possible to have

a really good foothold and path into

product Market fit where you're finding

people you're selling people but if the

product doesn't do what it says it does

and you see this in SAS you'll hear the

terminology like a leaky bucket it means

you don't have all the way fit you found

you found a real Market problem you

found a real way to sell but your

solution's off and so you that's where

you start to fix fix the Leaky bucket

and there's a t you start to get into a

bunch of stuff of like where's the value

are we activating right is there too

many features all the things um but if

you actually solve for those three

things retention will be there and not

only retention upsell cross sell word of

mouth and the whole system becomes

stable and so um good question big

question that's how we think of it in

terms of the the moving pieces and

parts awesome thank you for that answer

and I think this is a good segue into

the next question here from Brian is a

con MP the best way to find product

Market fit in the idea stage uh pre MP

like what's kind of the best structure

here yeah best is relative I love coner

MVPs I think not only are they cheap and

easy to do but they're just super

effective they force you to actually

prioritize the most critical pieces of

that first part if you're actually

trying to sell something the coner

approach is basically how we built

Fletch my partner and I we started

publicly trying to scratch problems on

LinkedIn where we're like Consulting in

public trying to say hey this is an

issue with product marketing and this is

an issue with messaging all these things

and like we didn't have it yet this is a

few years ago now and people would come

in and what that got us is a little bit

of trust and credibility where someone a

Founder would eventually raise their

hand and say hey can you help me and

we'd hop on a call and we' like what do

you need help with and we were pitching

really from the hip live we had we

didn't have very many Frameworks we

didn't have a service in this analogy

from a software standpoint don't have

the whole product but we did have we

knew we were on to something in terms of

our approach and so we were very

comfortable and this is what I encourage

early stage founders you have to be

comfortable selling something that isn't

there it's it's not sketchy because if

your intentions are in the right place

you are there trying to help and you

should use that honesty as a as a place

to balance the conversation and this is

what a lot of Founders get wrong is they

think like no if I don't have it that's

like sleazy sales stuff you should tell

your early prospects after you've had

the conversation that oh by the way like

this is like the first time we're doing

this right and so like because with

there comes benefits it's like well you

get white glove and we're going to

customize it for you but just know like

there might be some bumps along the way

and like that tells you that you're on

the right path and so the short answer

to your question I love the concierge

model I think it's underused um but it

is relative to what you're building

because you know if you're going a

high-tech route you know you think

SpaceX and all that you can't really

coner a rocket and so you just got to be

mindful of your constraints um and

prioritize the key pieces of like what

you're testing in a way that's really

reasonable and also

ethical awesome yeah you can really con

as a rocket so unfortunately no yeah

unfortunately so moving on to the next

question here uh we have this from

pashal how can one position scalably

with multiple products for example

multiple HR product startups positioning

for scale yeah this one here we see this

all the time find the wedge um actually

if you give me if you give me one moment

here I can bring up another visual

that'll help guide this answer the fact

like especially early stage right and so

I know we don't have the context totally

of whether you're um you have traction

or you're just getting started and

here's the visual you think about but

especially if you're just getting

started share my

screen when you have multiple products

right this goes into that piece of I am

either a suite or I am a a platform that

can do all these things there's three

ways to approach that the one that I

can't recommend more is sell the main

wedge and and stripe did this for a

while stripe has 19 products today in

the financial space which they call like

their financial infrastructure but if

you go even to today's positioning they

position around payments the first three

Scrolls of their website are all leading

with payments payments payments because

they know if they can be well known for

payments they can then upsell and cross-

sell all their other products and bring

you into that Suite it's this is also

the best route because remember you have

limited resources so the idea that you

think you can go build three use cases

for three different groups at the same

time like getting one to work is super

hard you're not going to get three to

work it can happen takes a lot of time

this is where we start to get into

selling multiple wedges Monday did this

the issue here it's so Capital intensive

this is huge risk bet and they basically

outraised everyone they built multiple

products and then they went to Market

with three products and then used them

as this like cohesive platform on the

back end you can do it not one I

recommend especially not for early early

stage and definitely not for like

finding fit I think it's super risky and

then this last one is just selling the

bundle calling yourself the thing like

we do all things and it's really just a

collection of multiple

products you can do this route if you

have virality in your product so you

think of the kendley the Looms the

slacks right like C Le is a great

example by using the product there's a

lot of talk of product like growth they

have built-in virality

everyone who schedules with someone on

calendly sees the product and how it

works and then they likely try it out

they can get by and they're again

they're not a platform so it's probably

not the perfect example but they can get

by doing broader things and like Slack's

probably the better example where

there's multiple pieces in it the other

thing to remember when you're doing this

bundle piece and even Microsoft is like

the gold standard this took them like 50

years they didn't even do it this way

they're doing this now they started with

the wedge I'm pretty sure they built

either word or Excel first and then they

branched out and so um it's an awesome

question to recap I highly recommend

focusing on a single use case fine fit

with one product one segment first and

then you can broaden and scale and

expand from there

sequentially awesome and because you're

talking about Monday and obviously they

they've raised a bunch of money we have

this question here Rob what's the

average time to find product Market fit

in SAS uh they've seen 12 months 24

months in various publication of course

that depends but for investors Etc uh

that knowledge it's it's kind of

important right and just to kind of add

uh add to this a little bit maybe Rob if

you have any insights on uh you

know the time that one should spend

looking for product Market fit as it

relates to trying to raise funds because

we're kind of now seeing more and more

uh investors looking for more product

Market fit ready startups right because

because of that's because of the way the

market is right now the pedul has swung

back right money is harder to come by uh

and you're seeing a lot of VCS that are

being thinking about efficient growth

and profitability which you don't

usually see um I think that's exciting I

think it does put pressure back on the

founders um but in a good way it makes

them get their priorities straight and

so uh there's a couple questions in

there the first one time to product

Market

fit my goal is not to scare Founders in

the

room many years is the the benchmark

like to me five plus years if you're

lucky if you're fast the news and media

they show companies that find it in 18

months they are the outliers they are

the 0.01% of the 1% and so I hope

everyone has that um it's so rare and if

you even if you ask those Founders the

ones that find it that quickly they'll

be the first to tell you how lucky they

are they either they got found some

crazy Trend and actually they didn't

even find it they bumped into it like

something happened you know you look at

like Co happening right I think that

vaulted a lot of these companies these

remote first products right into fit

before they were ready and that's that's

fine and the ones that are surviving and

flourishing they basically like oh

we better figure this out and great now

they're super profitable and successful

and they had all the growth the reality

is this stuff is just incredibly hard

there's no Playbook right there's guides

and Frameworks and models you can follow

which is why we do this to help bring

some of the complexity out of it um but

it just takes really

really hard work for a lot of time and a

lot of focus and um I think I don't

think it's talked about enough because I

think a lot of Founders jump in assuming

like I'm gonna give this a try for 12

months um I think that's a pretty poor

mindset to building things I think even

if you're and you're not GNA be able to

predict where it goes you should be

really excited about the space that

you're in and I think that's where the

concept of pivots comes in where sure

you can give it a try for 12 to to 24

months knowing that you might then have

to build a whole new thing on mon 25 but

where you're you're still on the two

three five 10 year track uh and so they

just take a lot of

time uh that was the first piece in

terms of length to fit uh Daniel helped

me out there was a second component in

there um and I'm yeah yeah more so the

the question was you know what should uh

you know Founders expect in terms of

like how quickly should they be looking

for product Market fit as it kind of

relates to fundraising right fundraising

that's what it was um to me I look at

fundraising uh it's kind of interesting

and they there's actually studies that's

kind of backed this up Founders are very

uh willing to take risk but when you

actually like boil it down they're

actually quite risk averse and that's

how I think about fundraising I would be

very reluctant to take

money um I would only take money if it

helps me scale something I've already

built to me taking money to figure out

how to finish building the plane in the

sky I always found as like that's silly

and um there's some there are exceptions

I would say like if you really do have a

reputation and accessibility to the

money like there's some people that'll

say yeah take it and run with it you're

doing it on someone else's dime that's

fine to me what I see is that money

without fit or without a good portion of

fit if you think across our model is a

recipe for disaster you're going to make

all the wrong decisions at all the wrong

times because it's well it's time to be

at 10 million ARR I guess I better come

up with a plan for 10 million ARR that's

not how the markets work right that's

not how customers get value from your

product you have to build it Brick by

Brick and so like to me the inverse of

this question is like why do I think

most companies fail the venture-backed

ones scaling too fast and at the root of

that is taking money too early and so

there's no set Benchmark it kind of

depends on access to funds how willing

you are to to take the risk that you

could build it midair I think about the

Benchmark for me is that when I when I

feel and a lot of this is qualitative

but also when I have proof of

repeatability um and predictability then

I'm ready to take money because then

it's not I I can actually see the

potential outcome and I know exactly

what I'm going to use the money for and

I just think not enough people they just

like get money and I guess I build a

team I'd rather give me money so I can

go put X dollars into this and Y dollars

into that for the next 12 months so that

I can get result Z like that's how I

think about it and if I don't have X Y

and Z in that in that answer I'm just

not ready and I would say most Founders

aren't yeah and I think it also kind of

speaks to determining whether or not

you're even a went your back about

business too right because a lot of

Founders they set they have their heart

set on raising but like as you kind of

go along look for product Market fit

build out your product you realize hey

maybe you know I don't I can make like a

100 million you know well that's that's

that is a beautiful question too it's

like what are your goals and VC money

will tell you your goals it's to be a

billion dollar company it's to get to

100 million

ARR most Founders they don't really want

that goal like some Founders want you

know some of them just want to solve

problems and work on cool stuff that's

great some of them do want to make $10

million retire early you know work on

things they're passionate about that's

cool too it's like each Financial goal

has its own route and um like I I look

at a lot of venture I look at a lot of

startups that are trying to be billion

dooll companies and I go and I see so

many that are like man there's a

wonderful $50 million business here and

you're screwing it up trying to turn it

into this billion-dollar company I I

think that I probably have that sense

like once or twice a week when I work

with a lot of these

Founders yeah and interestingly we had

um GOG who's the founder of Maven and

udmi he also kind of spoke about this in

one of our webinars last week was just

about how uh you know when you take wec

money it's essentially do or die right

so sometimes you end up realizing hey

this is like a $10 million problem right

or maybe like a 100K problem and not

like a 100 million yeah so what I'll do

is I'll move on to the next question uh

we have a few more minutes before we hop

on

uh to the networking Lounge so we have

this question here from Ali from a sales

Business Development perspective what

are some signs that your product Market

fit isn't working or your Market isn't

respond responding as you

anticipated yeah first thing here if you

go back to our model can you get in

front of your target audience repeatably

and so one of the first questions I

would ask a Founder

is how many meetings are you getting

every day every week and then you know

you then look at there'll be a sum

number or hopefully it's big but it's

probably not just based on the way the

question is framed it's like okay well

what are you doing to try and get those

meetings and then what you could start

to do is see you know what tactics are

being effective not that the goal is to

test those go to market motions and

channels but it'll show up two ways in

terms of like is it working sheer

metrics like are we getting in front of

people the other one is

qualitative and the tricky thing here is

that most Founders take shortcuts in the

early days and I'm going to pick on um

running ads for a minute there ads Can

Be an Effective testing strategy early

on so I'm not saying it can't work this

way but if you start by running ads to

me it's to me it's lazy um number one

it's very inefficient and overall

ineffective as a channel anyone will

tell you that and that's why usually

when you see companies um go to scale it

will be on their list of their dashboard

of the worst performing Channel tactic

thing that works the other thing is that

ads you can't get any of the qualitative

insights that you can from interactions

with your target prospects and so I

always encourage

Founders the first thing you have to

solve for you have to be able to be in

front of your

customers at I would say at all times is

the goal but at the very least least

like half of the day and so like the

analogy I have in my business is is

LinkedIn we spend our whole day on

LinkedIn on any given day we're posting

every day responding in the comments I

get to chat with 10 to 20 Founders there

on any given day I've got 20 to 50

Founders messaging me asking questions I

get to interact with them there I meet

with probably somewhere between 10 and

25 Founders a week on little

consultation sometimes sales calls I'm

interacting with founders there and I

spend the rest of my time with Founders

in our work I am 100% immersed in my

Target customer and so I know what they

think I know where they hang out I know

what their problems are there's no

replacement for spending all that time

when you run an ad I spent $100 this

many people

clicked you get none of the insights you

have no idea what questions are behind

it you have no idea the context and

details and so um I may be expanding on

this question a little bit too much but

I I always just bake it down to like can

you get in front of your customer and it

the last thing I'll say and this is

really funny because I there's some

Founders we come across they have

wonderful ideas and they're like it's

perfect for and then they'll insert name

they'll say like director of product at

these kind of companies in this industry

like that's awesome do you know any of

those people and then they're like well

well no no I mean we'd have to go talk

to them it's like there's your first

problem you have you have no access to

the people you're trying to help right

and this is why all the advice of like

solve your own problem solve your

network problem people you're really

close to you have to have it in some

level or if not you got to solve for it

really quickly and so access to your

customer like the number one leading

piece and there's a lot of ways to

measure

that awesome so there you have it folks

you have to talk to your customer so uh

Rob what I'm going to do is I'll head on

to the last question here and I think

this is a pretty good one from Richard

uh how do I know if it's a product

problem rather than a market problem

when trying to find product Market fed

or wi ver you know this is uh this is a

pretty awesome question so thank you for

this Richard um it's an awesome question

because it's not always going to be

obvious right um one of the one of the

ways to think about it if you go back to

our framework on product Market fit of

like the find sell get to

Value if you struggle to get people to

value you like that's where that's where

it's going to show up first right and so

there's a um there's a peer of ours who

helps with product Market fit his name

is Rob Snider um and he posts a lot

about it on LinkedIn he's got an

interesting framing of product Market

fit is about and it's very similar to

ours but a repeatable case

study um and so when you get into that

and so when you start to say like oh is

there not a market or is it my my

product sucks it's about splitting that

out splitting out our model a little bit

and so there is a market if you can get

in front of people right the eyeballs if

someone's willing to talk to you about

some challenge or activity they're

having it's a really good signal of a

potential Market because time is their

currency right if they're not willing to

give you time First Signal h no one man

people say this is a problem but no one

wants to talk about it and we see this

one a lot where a problem will just be

out there but it's not severe enough or

it's not expensive enough for someone to

actually go solve what we would say is

there that's a potential Market that has

not yet become a market and this is a

spectrum right because obviously some

people are going to care about that

problem more than others and this is

where that volume comes in and so that's

the first thing can you get people to

talk about the problem you're solving

good signal there a market the next big

one will they put money where their

mouth is time is a good one but when it

comes to fit we're building businesses

here you got to have the exchange of

cash and so attack for early stage

especially idea stage but this works

across the board if you're ever in a

conversation with a prospect or a

customer or maybe you're just doing

Discovery and research make sure you're

teeing it up almost like it's a sales

call even if you're not and at the end

of the session say hey and there's a lot

of ways to do this say hey you know what

right now we have a 50% off discount I

can get you signed up for X dollar can I

have your credit

card the moment you bring money into the

equation everything you will hear after

you put that pressure on them is the

truth and I've seen this I've done so

many Market Discovery customer Discovery

interviews and so many don't ask this

question and it blows my mind because

you'll get so much bad data you'll ask

someone man is this important yeah that

problem's important oh what are you

doing about it well we struggle with

this and it's like well let me show you

what I've got and then they're like this

is amazing this is so cool I love what

you're building it's it's I love it they

give you all this positive stuff you're

ready to run back to your team and say

they love it let's build the thing let's

turn on marketing you ask the question

okay it's $100 can I sign you up well

well you see and then they're going to

tell you what they really think and and

it happens over and over and over again

so try and close um the Crux of this can

you get in front of them are they

willing to give you time are they

willing to give you money if not there's

probably not a market and it's not a

product

problem it's a market problem the

product problem will show up when

they've given you money and and then the

thing's breaking and everybody

leaves probably a product

problem awesome awesome there you have

it folks Rob thank you so much uh for

doing this with us and to everybody on

the call today thank you so much for

joining

us uh

Rob yeah awesome uh before we kind of

close things out Rob would you want to

maybe share some insights or any pardon

words um the biggest one I'll hit it

again it's not a crazy idea figure out a

way to just live with your customers if

you're not your customer that is the

especially for the early stage folks if

you're later stage get specific those

are like would be the two takeaways that

are like underlying everything that we

do and how we help early stage companies

um other thing I know there's a lot of

folks in here a lot of questions we

didn't get to uh feel free to find me on

LinkedIn connect we connect with

everyone again you guys are basically my

Market and my peers in a lot of

different ways um we're very active

there so join the conversation we're

posting every day um give us a little

bit of time we haven't we don't use Ai

and we haven't outsourced any of our

messages yet which is getting a little

difficult but uh please drop us a

message and we'll we'll do our best to

get back to

you awesome thank you so much Rob for

being here uh folks thank you for

joining us uh before we close things out

remember we do still have time for our

networking so Rob hopefully if you have

a little bit of time uh the FI team will

also be there

and you can also talk to Founders from

across the world and another really

exciting thing is we have an event on AI

in finance coming up on Wednesday I'll

share the link in the chat if you want

uh you know uh if you want to kind of

like upgrade update your uh Financial

operations using Ai and automation feel

free to uh join that event folks thank

you so much for joining us we'll see you

in the next

one