The Future of Accounting Qualifications: Brian Hock
Summary
TLDRIn the 'Accounting Influencers Podcast,' host Rob Brown interviews Brian Hawk, an expert in accounting qualifications and fintech. Hawk discusses the evolution of accounting qualifications, emphasizing the impact of technology and changing standards. He shares his experience in Russia and the importance of distinguishing between governments and people in political discussions. The conversation also touches on the relevance of certifications, the challenges of attracting new talent to the accounting profession, and the need for continuous professional development.
Takeaways
- 📈 Brian Hawk, a leading authority in accounting and fintech qualifications, emphasizes the importance of staying updated with technological changes in the field.
- 🎓 Hawk's career transitioned from auditing to training within the big four, highlighting the value of adaptability in professional development.
- 🌐 His company provides global training for U.S. based accounting certifications, underlining the demand for qualified accountants worldwide.
- 🔍 The discussion points out the evolution of accounting qualifications, particularly how technology and data usage have become integral to the role of an accountant.
- 📚 Hawk's experience in Russia showcases the impact of geopolitical events on business and accounting practices, and the importance of distinguishing between governments and people.
- 🤔 The conversation raises the question of whether certain aspects of accounting qualifications are outdated or not relevant to modern business needs.
- 🏆 The value of a certification is tied to its recognition by the business community and government requirements, suggesting that qualifications must keep pace with industry demands.
- 💼 There's a noted shift in the perception of the accounting profession, with a focus on the importance of work-life balance and the appeal of alternative careers.
- 🔑 Certifications serve as a 'passport' for professionals looking to move locations, providing a recognized standard of knowledge and skills.
- 🛠️ The script suggests a need for more comprehensive and rigorous examination methods that test the synthesis of knowledge rather than just memorization.
- 🌟 A call to view the accounting field as a 'profession' with a collective responsibility to maintain its standards and reputation, rather than just an 'industry'.
Q & A
What is the Accounting Influencers Podcast about?
-The Accounting Influencers Podcast features discussions with special guests from the world of accounting and fintech, focusing on current happenings and practical insights into what is working in the industry.
Who is Brian Hawk and what is his area of expertise?
-Brian Hawk is one of the world's foremost authorities on qualifications in accounting and fintech. He has over 25 years of experience in training and certifications, having started his own company in 2000 to provide training for accounting certifications globally.
How has Brian Hawk's career evolved from being an auditor to a training expert?
-Brian Hawk started his career as an auditor with Price Waterhouse but soon realized it wasn't for him. He transitioned into the training department within the big four and has since been involved in training and certifications, eventually starting his own company.
What changes have occurred in accounting qualifications over the years according to Brian Hawk?
-Accounting qualifications have changed significantly due to evolving accounting and tax standards, as well as the impact of technology. The use of data in auditing and management decisions has become a crucial part of the qualifications.
How has technology influenced the role of an accountant and the need for new skills?
-Technology has transformed the role of an accountant by introducing new tools for data analysis and management. Accountants now need to be aware of and skilled in using this data, as well as understanding how to protect it from security breaches.
What was Brian Hawk's experience living and working in Russia, and how did it influence his career?
-Brian Hawk lived and worked in Russia for 18 years, starting from 1994. His time there involved working with a car manufacturer and teaching accounting. This experience exposed him to different cultures and business practices, which contributed to his expertise in international accounting.
How does Brian Hawk view the current situation in Russia and its impact on the accounting profession?
-Brian Hawk believes the situation in Russia is a tragedy with far-reaching effects, including on the accounting profession. He emphasizes the importance of distinguishing between the Russian government and its people and the need for the conflict to end.
What are Brian Hawk's thoughts on the relevance of accounting qualifications in today's rapidly changing business environment?
-Brian Hawk acknowledges that while some aspects of accounting qualifications may not be directly applicable, they provide a foundational understanding that enables professionals to ask the right questions and understand the broader implications of financial data.
How does Brian Hawk perceive the competition between different accounting certifications?
-He sees competition between certifications as being based on business perception and government requirements. Certifications gain value when they are recognized and sought after by the business community and when they are legally required for certain roles.
What is Brian Hawk's approach to helping students prepare for certification exams?
-Brian Hawk focuses on motivation and understanding the 'why' behind pursuing a certification. He emphasizes the importance of knowing one's goals and being able to apply the knowledge gained during the certification process to real-world situations.
What does Brian Hawk predict for the future of accounting qualifications and the profession?
-He foresees a greater emphasis on international connections and the development of the profession beyond just the technical skills. He hopes to see a growth in professional organizations and a focus on what it means to be a professional in the accounting field.
Outlines
🎙️ Podcast Introduction and Brian Hawk's Background
The script begins with the hosts introducing the Accounting Influencers Podcast, where they discuss current trends in accounting and fintech with industry experts. The guest for this episode is Brian Hawk, a renowned authority in accounting qualifications and fintech. Brian shares his journey from being an auditor to his 25-year career in training, including his experience with certifications and his own company that provides global accounting training. The conversation also touches on Brian's unique background as a part-qualified accountant and former math teacher.
🌐 Evolution of Accounting Qualifications and Technology's Impact
This paragraph delves into the evolution of accounting qualifications, highlighting how changes in accounting and tax standards have influenced certification content. Brian emphasizes the significant impact of technology on the field, discussing the use of data in auditing and management decisions. He also addresses the importance of data protection, citing news stories about data breaches, and notes the necessity for accountants to understand and adapt to technological advancements.
🇷🇺 Brian Hawk's Experience in Russia and Global Business Dynamics
Brian recounts his unique experience living and working in Russia, starting from a young age in 1987 during the Soviet era. He discusses his academic background in Russian history and diplomacy, which led to multiple visits to the country and eventually a career there. The conversation shifts to the current geopolitical situation, with Brian expressing his views on the importance of distinguishing between governments and their people, especially in the context of the Ukraine conflict and its global economic repercussions.
📚 The Role of Qualifications in Professional Development
The discussion turns to the role of qualifications in professional development, with Brian sharing his insights on the importance of certifications for career growth. He talks about the value of broad-based certifications for entry-level professionals and the significance of specialized certifications later in one's career. The paragraph also touches on the adaptability of certified professionals and the importance of continuous learning.
🏛️ The State of Politics and Its Reflection on Business Practices
Brian and the hosts engage in a dialogue about the current state of politics, both in the United States and the United Kingdom, and how it parallels certain business practices. They discuss the loss of middle ground in politics and the impact of extreme views on society. The conversation also explores the importance of maintaining company values and making decisions that prioritize people over profits.
📉 The Relevance of Accounting Qualifications in a Changing World
The focus shifts to the relevance of accounting qualifications in the face of rapid changes in the industry. Brian addresses the concern that some aspects of qualifications may not be fit for purpose and discusses the importance of certifications staying current with industry trends, particularly in data analytics. The paragraph also considers the balance between the breadth of knowledge provided by certifications and the specialization required in certain roles.
🌟 The Value and Transferability of Professional Certifications
Brian discusses the value of professional certifications, such as the CPA, in the global job market. He explains how certifications can act as a passport, demonstrating a standardized body of knowledge that is recognized internationally. The paragraph also touches on the perception of value in certifications and how they can serve as a ticket to enter the job market.
🛠️ The Future of Accounting Qualifications and Professional Development
In this paragraph, Brian shares his vision for the future of accounting qualifications, advocating for a more rigorous and comprehensive approach to examinations. He emphasizes the importance of understanding concepts beyond memorization and the need for certifications to demand a synthesis of information. The conversation also hints at the potential introduction of new certifications and the expansion of continuing professional education (CPE).
🔮 Brian Hawk's Predictions for the Accounting Profession
Brian concludes the interview with his predictions for the accounting profession in the coming years. He foresees an increased emphasis on international connections and the development of a more profound understanding of what it means to be a professional. Brian also hopes for a stronger connection between professional organizations and the continued growth of the profession beyond just technical skills.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Accounting Influencers Podcast
💡Brian Hawk
💡Certifications
💡Technology
💡Training
💡Big Four
💡Data Analytics
💡Russian History
💡Interconnectedness
💡CPE (Continuing Professional Education)
💡Case Study
Highlights
Introduction of Brian Hawk as a world authority on qualifications in accounting and fintech.
Brian's transition from auditor to training within the big four, focusing on certifications for over 25 years.
Establishment of Brian's own company in 2000, providing global accounting certification training.
Discussion on the evolution of accounting qualifications driven by changes in standards and technology.
Emphasis on technology's impact on the role of accountants and the necessity for certification to adapt.
Brian's unique experience living and working in Russia, offering insights into the cultural and political landscape.
Reflection on the current geopolitical situation and its influence on business and the accounting profession.
Analysis of the disconnect between governments and citizens in various contexts, including the US and Russia.
Debate on the relevance and applicability of certain aspects of accounting qualifications in the real world.
The importance of certifications as a stepping stone for career advancement and professional development.
Differentiation between various accounting certifications and the value they hold in the business community.
Brian's perspective on the role of technology in simplifying tax processes and its implications for accountants.
Concerns about the image and perception of the accounting profession and the challenges it faces in attracting new talent.
Brian's insights into the future of accounting qualifications and the importance of adapting to a globalized business environment.
The significance of continuous professional development (CPD) in maintaining the relevance of qualifications.
Brian's vision for the accounting profession, emphasizing the need for a stronger professional community and ethical standards.
Final thoughts on the importance of the accounting profession's collective reputation and the impact of individual actions.
Transcripts
it's the accounting influencers podcast
with me and Rob Brown we bring you
special guests from the world of
accounting and fintech to tell you what
is happening and most importantly what
is working I'm thrilled to have with Mr
one of the world's foremost authorities
on the world of qualifications in
accounting and fintech it is Brian Hawk
good day to you sir good day how are you
today we're splendi Brian wonderful to
have you on with us for the benefit of
people that have not come across you and
the world that you have built for
yourself tell us a bit about you and
your life
well I started uh out of college I
started as an auditor and decided fairly
quickly that while I understand auditing
is a wonderful profession and that
there's a lot of people that enjoy it it
wasn't exactly for me it wasn't
something that I was looking forward to
and so I stayed within the big four I
was with price Waterhouse at the time
and I got into their training department
and so for the past 25 plus years I've
been involved in training in one way or
another
um almost all of it with certifications
for the past
23 years I started my own company in the
year 2000. we've been doing a lot of U.S
based accounting certifications but
providing training for candidates all
over the world India middle east Europe
North America all over
now I'm a part qualified accountant and
a former high school math teacher so
back in the day this would have been
around 2000 I was studying my
qualifications and and like some people
decided accountancy wasn't for me but
loved some aspects of it talk to us
about how the accounting qualification
has changed over the years if indeed it
has we know accounting's been ever
thirst and double entry bookkeeping but
the qualifications themselves have they
changed much
they've changed a lot of it driven by I
think really two things one is a change
in standards as Accounting Standards
change and as tax standards change
obviously what it is that's covered in
the certifications change and so that's
I think pretty straightforward but I
think the other area that the
certifications have changed a lot
recently has to do with technology all
of the uses of Technology the use of
data in auditing the use of data in
management decisions and just
individuals having to be aware of all of
the data that's out there how to use it
how to manage it obviously how to
protect it far too often we see
something in the news about a company
that didn't protect all of the data as
well as they were supposed to have and
so there's issues connected to that but
it's really I think a big change is
technology and how it is that technology
is changing the role of the accountant
when I took the CPA exam almost 30 years
ago it was paper and pencil and we
studied on in a book and there wasn't
online videos and all of that even study
tools but just in the profession it was
all work papers and papers were paper
and tick marks were tick marks that you
made and so as technology has come into
and obviously with everything that's in
the news today is going to continue to
impact auditing accounting the finance
Fields that's going to be a part of
where certifications have to keep up so
that people who are getting the
certifications have that kind of data T
background and skills to operate sure
well we'll go on more into that of
course but you use the phrase in the
news today
and I can't help but want to ask you
about Russia because Russia is big in
the news today you are in the unique
position of having lived in Russia tell
us a little bit about how that came
about and what your life was like over
there Brian and then we'll comment and
perhaps a little bit on what is
happening right now as it relates to the
accounting world yeah my uh career in
Russia actually started when I was 16
years old I went to then the Soviet
Union it was 1987 and so everyone can do
the math and figure out how old I am but
that's amazing because most Americans I
know don't even have a passport and
haven't been out of their own state so
that is an American boy doing it in
Russia at 16. so I went in 1987 and it
was a program that was called citizen
diplomacy where the idea was for
American citizens to actually connect
with Soviet citizens and I say that I
enjoyed it but I don't think it was
enjoyed in the same sense as going to
Disney World is enjoyed or something
like that and so I went back again uh
twice in college with youth groups and
when I was in college I before I became
an accounting major I was a Russian
history major a diplomacy and Foreign
Affairs major and then after a couple of
years I decided I wanted a job going
forward in my life and so I followed my
father's my older brother's footsteps
and became an accounting major but when
I interviewed I said I want to go to
Russia and so in when I graduated I had
offers from three different offices in
Russia and I went in 1994 to
a city that's about 600 miles a thousand
kilometers east of Moscow which is where
the Russian car manufacturers of one of
the the main passenger car manufacturers
I spent time there that's where I
decided auditing was not my life's
calling and it wasn't something I wanted
to do for the next 30 Years and I got
into training within the big four we did
a lot of Acca training back then and and
some SEMA training and I stayed in
training through that
um in the year 2000 I left Arthur
Anderson and started my own company to
do accountancy training CPA and CMA CIA
training and then it just kind of it
grew I stayed there I enjoyed it and
then 10 years ago a little more than 10
years ago
kind of I woke up and said well I think
I'm done here I'd spend 18 years in
Russia as at the start of my career and
we moved you know 11 years ago back to
the U.S but a lot of a lot of that time
was in training and the students I had
were brilliant we had people at that
time
we had to fly to the U.S to take the CPA
exam and so I joked I had a few students
I could have given them a book and sat
him on the airplane and told them you
have 10 hours and that would have been
enough for them to be ready to pass the
exam yeah but it was a great student
base that we worked with we had great
results and it was a lot of fun to to be
part of a lot of those young
professionals careers as they were just
starting in the career and I've lived
myself in Hong Kong for a few years and
it's not until you get immersed in a
culture as a someone living there not as
a tourist that you really appreciate the
the inner workings of a country that the
politics the people the society and so
having been there for so long like are
you okay commenting on what you feel is
happening right now because obviously
the war in Ukraine it's affected
business and life all over the world
hasn't it
I think it's a
it's a tragedy on so many levels and I
think that it's unfortunate that
a lot of people a lot of media are not
separating the Russian government from
the Russian people and I think this is
the case in every government I know not
every person is fully supportive of
everything that their government does
but I think in the case of Russia it's a
very it's an extreme situation where the
government is not acting at the will of
the people or at the you know at the
desire of what the people in Russia want
to have happen and it's just obviously
something that needs to stop as soon as
possible and I don't know what the off
ramp is for what's happening but it is
it's and it's disrupted so many people
not only in Russia and Ukraine but of
the Ripple effects through the economy
and we begin to see what we saw during
covid the interconnectedness of the
supply chain and how even one Link in
that supply chain falling apart or being
disrupted has Ripple effects that we
don't even really expect when something
happens and I can't have but draw a
similar parallel obviously not on the
same devastating scale but of a
government not representing its people
with the US government right now and the
whole Tick Tock Scandal and half of the
American population are on Tick Tock and
the sanctions that have been imposed on
this big social media company because of
data and everything else have been
imposed by the will of the government
and not necessarily the will of the
people do you have a take on that well
American politics is also how's that for
conversation yeah I think part of it is
the fact that I from what I see is the
middle ground has been lost in politics
and and it's you know whether it's
because everyone has to get on Twitter
and have the most extreme sound bite to
make it through all the Clutter that's
out there but it seems like
there's there's been a loss of
goals objectives what is fundamental to
a country the the values that a country
has and it's been lost into just trying
to become the most extreme one way or
the other without compromising no
willingness to listen to
the other side the other perspective and
it's something where I mean even you
know running a business it's a matter of
what are the values that you have as a
business and how do those values get
played out in the way you operate I just
was talking with somebody I know who
runs a business and the manager the
director of the business was very
successful they brought that person in a
few months earlier but they weren't they
weren't behaving properly in the office
so kind of bullying and just kind of a
inappropriate abuse of power and the
person said you know we've always saved
people come first and so we have to make
a decision are we going to actually have
our people come first or our profits
going to come first and I think that's
kind of what's happened in what's been
lost in politics we don't have a value
that we're trying to achieve and you and
I may have different ways of achieving
it but we both agree on what it is we're
trying to achieve it seems like we've
lost
a discussion of what the goal is and we
get lost in an argument about how to get
where nobody really agrees where we're
trying to even go
um
and in the UK here we used to laugh at
American politics and send how you
clowns had really got it wrong but we
are really making a mess of things over
here right now so you have not got the
Monopoly on crazy politics well I think
too part of it is if you look at what
happens to politicians it raises the
question of who wants to become a
politician who wants to get into that
where everything you do is criticized by
half the population
um there's so many personal attacks and
I think there's probably a lot of people
that would be happy to be in that middle
of the road or a lot closer to the
middle of the road and work on that
consensus
that just don't want to go through the
terrible experience of being in the
public eye right now yeah I'm bringing
it back to the topic of qualifications
accreditations
I kind of help thinking that's a lot of
accountants I speak to feel it certainly
aspects of the qualifications are not
fit for purpose and they accuse the
people that are set in the exams that
govern embodies the professional
Institutes of being out of touch and not
representing but public accounting or
professional accounting is down there on
the coal face is there some element of
Truth to that well I think there is when
you look at
what a certification is trying to do in
terms of whether or not a certification
is a very broad-based certification or
whether it's kind of more of a niche
certification and not choosing if this
isn't an exam I've ever been involved
with but there's a certification
certified fraud examiner yes well that
seems pretty specific what it should be
okay it's examining fraud and so that a
narrow certification should still be
fairly specific to its target audience
or its Target its goals its values or
its Mission however we want to look at
it yes when you start getting into more
broad-based certifications that are what
people do right out of University or
while they're in University and so CPA
Acca SEMA different kind of broader
based ones yeah there is there is going
to be part of that certification that
nobody's ever going to use you know I
passed the CPA exam 30 years ago one of
those exams was U.S tax
well the tax code today is significantly
different than it was 30 years ago and
so any element of a certification that
deals with tax
is going to kind of be outdated
6 12 18 months after the person passes
that exam and so it's important for the
certification to maintain kind of job
awareness what it is that is happening
in the world one of the exams I'm
involved with CMA Certified Management
accountant they're in the process of
doing their job survey where they go out
to all the members everybody anybody has
the opportunity to share what do you do
in your job essentially and that they're
able to then take that information and
see what it is that people are doing
where things are going what the trends
are and that's where more IIT shows up
in certifications if there's a
certification now in accounting or
finance that doesn't hover data
analytics and the use of all of that
data yeah they've failed to stay
as current as they probably should be
with what it is that people are doing
I remember my days as a maths teacher
Brian where I'm say teaching the
children Pythagoras and right angle
triangles or some algebra and and the
kids are very naturally asking so why
are we doing this we're never going to
use this in real life it's not
applicable to what I'm going to be
facing out there and some accountants do
level that accusation that how relevant
is this what I'm doing right now to
what's going to be happening out there
in the real world and they've got a
point to an extent haven't they they do
and again this comes back to when you
have a job that is very narrow in what
it does yes and part of the way I look
at this is that the larger the company
you're in
most likely the more narrow the scope of
your job if you work for a huge company
you might be an accounts receivable but
if you're in a small company you do
everything capable isn't a full-time job
and so you're in accounts receivable and
payable and so when you get into one of
these you know into a very narrow job
yeah a lot of what you've studied in
your certification is not relevant but
the way I look at it is
a certification really shouldn't be
about what you're doing today
when you choose a certification and look
at your certification it should be based
on five years from now
five years from now I want to be the
finance director I don't want to be the
accounts payable person I want to have a
larger role and so the certification is
part of that education process and
getting those skills and the knowledge
so that when that promotion opportunity
comes up when somebody asks you hey what
what do you want to do next you have an
answer and you've also demonstrated
I'm actually being proactive here and
getting myself in a situation or
position to be able to do that job
five years three years down the line but
honestly Brian how many people know what
they want to be doing in five years
certainly when I think back to when I
was 20 years old I thought I knew it all
but I really knew nothing and I had no
clue about where my life was going and
in what direction I wanted to push it so
they take a qualification with the hope
of getting a broad education broad scope
open up some doors and maybe try a few
things and pick a lane so it does need
to be wide in its remit doesn't it to
hit a lot of bases well I think
the way I when I talk to students yeah
and go back to CFE nobody knows they're
going to become a fraud examiner no
until three weeks before they get
promoted into that position or drafted
into that position yeah and so the
specialty certifications are the ones
that I look at that are a little bit
later in your career
after you have a sense of what it is
that you want to do I mean if you go in
and you get a job in the big four or any
audit firm you don't know what area you
might end up in or what industry you
might end up in if you leave the firm
and go to one of your clients and so at
the beginning those General
certifications are kind of a ticket to
enter
you need to have that certification and
I agree it may not be terribly relevant
but the firm the company you you know
that's part of their resume selection
gets you in the game doesn't it Prime
it's the entry okay yeah and it's
something
we have our oldest son is in college
right now and he's in his second year
and you know he talks about what he
studies in classes and sometimes I kind
of think well that's probably never
going to be used again in your life
after this class is over but part of
that is it's how to learn it's how to
learn how to study and starting to put
pieces together and so from a
certification standpoint when you're
looking into the future even if it's not
something you do right now it's how a
company operates somebody in the company
is doing that at some point you're going
to come into contact with that person
and if you're able to speak
intelligently if you're able to
demonstrate you understand what the
finance function does or what the
procurement function does you're a step
ahead of somebody who doesn't have that
background and doesn't have some base of
knowledge to even to understand what you
don't know I think that's something
that's important too I know enough about
a topic I mean if you take a
professional certification you are not
an expert in anything
you don't come out as having the
equivalent of 20 years of experience in
any field
but you have enough to know what
questions to ask you know enough to
recognize well what you've told me
doesn't make sense or I need a little
more information or something and so
it's it's not necessarily to have every
answer yourself through the
certification process but to know what
you don't know and what questions you
need to ask to get the information that
you need and indeed where to go or who
to ask right to get those questions
answered that's a part of it isn't it
yeah would you say that there's any
competition between certifications we
talked about the CPA exam in the UK
we're here we have the ACC and the
chartered accountancy exam you'll have
seen the differences between them all
Brian is one better than the other are
they just different are they almost the
same
they are different and
which one is better for you comes down
to a couple of things one is if you want
to be a fraud examiner well certified
fraud examiner is the certification that
you need of course but it also has to do
with business perception
and for whatever reason CPA seems to be
recognized around the world as one of
the Premier accounting certifications
but if you look at CPA one of the four
exams is U.S tax
okay so how many people do U.S tax even
in the U.S CPAs aren't involved in in
tax all the time well the U.S dollars
even losing relevance Now isn't it we're
so topical at the moment one of the
exams is audit yeah and so it's possible
that somebody outside the United States
is taking CPA because that's what the
market wants
even though what they're learning
becomes a memorization exercise I need
to learn U.S tax code just to pass this
exam nobody's ever going to ask me a tax
question again nor should they
but I needed to pass this exam and so
part of the issue with certifications is
one way a certification gets value is
the business Community Values it you
look for a job and it says CPA CA
whatever required or preferred
well you may not think that that
specific certification is going to add a
lot of value to you
but if you want a job that's the price
of admission in a sense yeah um and then
also certifications get value because of
government requirements you know you
have to be a CPA in the United States to
sign an audit opinion well outside of
the United States there is no legal
requirement at least not many that I'm
aware of where you have to be a CPA to
do something your company may want you
to be a CPA if you're outside but and so
a lot of it comes down to what the
business Community perceives to have
value and so the competition between the
firms is really to get the HR companies
to Value their certification as one that
they want to put into advertisements for
job placement offers
so let me push back on the perceived
value of the qualification we've heard
stories here on the show of businesses
that are hiring non-accountants to do
their taxes and audits because they're
bringing in software accredited
specialists
and it is very much about the software
you mentioned the importance of tech at
the top of the show so they they say
they don't need qualified accountants so
they'll at least for the majority of the
work they will get it done by people
that know how to use the zero and the
sage and the Intuit and everything else
and who actually needs a qualified CPA
is this some kudos to that I absolutely
agree that is my personal taxes I paid
forty dollars a year I get a software
program it asks me a series of questions
I say yes no and at the end it tells me
if I have a refund or if I owe and so
there are a lot of those positions in a
company that aren't in need of a
certified person the way I look at that
the the kind of responses to where the
certified person belongs is to use that
data to use that information and right
ratio analysis I can give you a formula
and a company's financial statements and
you can calculate any ratio I tell you
the person may not know what it is but
we can say take this number divided by
this number multiply it by that and you
get three
well the certified person or the
knowledgeable person they may not even
be certified but the experienced
knowledgeable person is able to take
that number
and what does it mean
just good is this bad if this is bad
what do we need to do to fix it what are
the issues that led to this and so it's
not the creation of the data that you
need an experienced and certified person
for it's the use of that information for
the company and making decisions
I take your point and we're moving now
from the Realms of compliance
and Regulatory stuff to the area
advisory and what we do with that data
I've got a friend called chat GPT I'm
sure you know him they that can
interpret U.S tax law and interpret
various tax codes and regulations and
everything else and come up with a
pretty good answer
so a lot of that heavy lifting is
already done but it's still there in the
qualifications isn't it
to some extent yes I think it's it's
something that I mean
part of the question about using the
data is do you understand how the data
is created and for example in the CMA
exam they cover accounting but they
don't test debits and credits right it's
what are fixed assets why are what are
the issues that we have about fixed
assets rather than when we buy a fixed
asset what's the debit and the credit
because again that debit and credit you
and I aren't making that anymore in most
cases but what does this information
mean why do we care how do we use this
information and how does this go in with
all of the other information that we
have as a business
to making the decisions that that we
make and it's again
in terms of taxes
of I don't understand in the United
States how so many people don't do their
own taxes because it's up to a certain
point it is yes no yes yes no yes yes
isn't it really right and you and you
can upload your tax documents to the
software and it does it all magically
but when you start getting into
corporations and you start getting into
different types of investment vehicles
that's where you want your you know
that's where chat GPT is probably not
your best Tax Advisor or tax planning
but I agree there's a lot of that kind
of basic information data entry that
doesn't need to be tested it's that data
analysis and the use of that information
and making decisions that makes good
sense so what degree do you feel a
profession has an image problem Brian
and I'm alluding here to the fact that
fewer and fewer people are taking
accounting degrees few and fewer people
are coming into the accounting
profession
people are leaching out of public and
private accounting we call it private
accounting here to go into industry and
into Commerce and maybe out of the
accounting professional together so
that's not just because of the the
qualifications that are arduous and
rightly so it's because the profession
as a whole So speaking to that a little
bit for us I think a lot of it's
lifestyle and the perception is that if
you go in work for the big four or you
know you're you're going to work however
many 60 80 hours a week during busy
season and business keeps getting longer
and longer for whatever reason yeah in
the U.S part of the problem is to take
the CPA exam you need to have a master's
in accountancy so it's a five-year
degree and so I said my son's in college
if he wants to go into accounting it's a
five-year degree
and he doesn't make any more or he can
go into Finance get a four-year degree
and make more than if you stayed the
fifth year in accounting and so kind of
becomes an accounting question yeah or
you're going to a law degree and you
come out with the starting salary of 120
150 000 a year and not 60 or 70 000 a
year and you think um what should I do
here but I think I think part of it too
is lifestyle just in terms of the
perception and people are realizing that
you know I don't need to spend all that
time for three years
working 80 hours a week
the upside isn't there and there's other
Alternatives going into industry one of
the things when I write speak to
students I say you know you want to
follow your passion well your passion
might be music and maybe you can't sing
or play an instrument but you love music
well the music industry has accountants
the music industry has Finance people so
go work for a record label as the
account in the accounting department and
there's there's ways that we can connect
with what it is we enjoy doing in life
as part of our profession without being
a professional athlete or professional
musician or whatever the case may be and
that doesn't require being an auditor
for three years at the beginning of your
career so yeah there is a there is a
shortage of people coming into it into
the profession coming out of college and
that's
you know it's it's a in a sense it's a
you know we're talking about math
earlier it's an applied math question
this is the cost of my five-year
education this is the benefit this is
the cost of a four-year education and I
make more money with one less year of
education so
I'm passionate I'm fascinated about what
your job involves Brian I remember back
when I was teaching mathematics
I ended up coming out of teaching
because I was coaching coaching kids to
pass tests it became more about that
coaching and the test and the exam type
League tables if you like then it was
about educating children but you're very
much in the business aren't you of
coaching and helping people to pass
intense rigorous academic qualifications
so what is your role involve
there is an element of coaching I think
a lot of it comes down to motivation
um when you're studying and you have a
two-year plan that you're going to be
studying it takes some commitment to to
make it through that because we know in
today's world there's all kinds of
alternatives for our attention and to
come home and Tuesday night you're going
to study and not do whatever other
Alternatives your friends have come up
with it's a sacrifice isn't it right and
so part of it is motivation part of it
is just kind of helping people
keep their eyes to what it is that
they're doing I always say when you
start a certification there's one
question that if you can answer it
correctly you'll pass and if you can't
answer it correctly you'll fail just so
you can start at the beginning the
question is why are you doing it why do
you want to become whatever
certification it is
and the nice thing is is there's really
no incorrect answer to this you just
have to have an answer
and I when we used to have live taught
classes I'd ask a group and people would
say oh I want to be smarter I want to
learn more you know but then finally
some Brave person would say I want more
money
and I said yeah that's the reason most
people
start a certification is they want more
money and you just need to remember that
that this period of sacrifice to pass
the exam is going to be a better job a
promotion a higher salary a bonus and
that's what it is that I'm I'm trying to
do but if you don't know why you're
doing it don't start because
Tuesday night you're going to end up
doing something other than studying yes
mindset is such an important part of it
so the qualifications themselves I've
got a black belt in kickboxing and
you'll appreciate then I'll give those
away they don't give a CPA qualification
away without a lot of hard work and and
many people fail it same with the
chartered accountancy qualification what
is good
about accounting qualifications right
now
well the thing that I think is the big
the biggest benefit of it has to do with
individuals who
in a sense want to move locations okay
and
this has to do with the university you
attended okay I went to Miami University
and if I say to somebody outside of
where I live that I went to Miami
University they think I went to Miami
Florida and they have pictures of Disney
World and sunshine and palm trees yep
the Miami I went to is in the state of
Ohio it snows and so the when I went to
Miami my Miami it was a top five
accounting program in the country
but nobody knows that wow and so when I
go outside of whatever geographic area
that people know Miami is a good school
my education means nothing it's just you
know I I don't know where you went and I
don't know how good of a university that
is so if I want to go to another country
or to another part of the country
my education okay I have a bachelor's
degree but you know who knows well once
you pass a professional certification
whatever it is
everybody knows well that's the exam
this is the syllabus that this person
knows 70 75 percent of maybe not all of
it but they they know most of it
Universal it's transferable right it's a
passport it demonstrates you have this
body of knowledge because I may have
studied a set of classes in my
accounting degree and you may have
studied most you know a lot similar but
I took an International Accounting track
and you took a tax track or something
like that and so your accounting
education and my accounting education
are different
but once we've both passed the same exam
well maybe your county University was
better than mine worse than mine
whatever but here's a standardized test
that we have both passed and we know we
know what we know yeah
that's a very good diplomatic answer
let's say then I made you the tsar and
the overlord of accounting
qualifications worldwide and you are
above all the governing bodies and
professional institutes and
accreditations and universities and
everything you are the man so I'm hiring
you for this job if you get it you start
Monday what would be one of the first
things you would want to put right Brian
well
I'm not going to make any friends with
my students or people and I would I
would make the exams harder
that's interesting I would I understand
that
multiple choices easy to grade and quick
to grade and it doesn't require people
to read it but to me there needs to be
an element of
whether you call it a case study or
something but where you bring the
knowledge from different parts of the
exam together being eroded from
qualifications Prime of these
um
some yes I think
um some are only multiple choice that I
know some have some element of writing
in it but it's a smaller I don't want
writing from the standpoint of do you
know where to put commas and can you
spell every word perfectly and all of
that but just the the community bringing
together information outside of a
multiple choice question yeah and and
are are you able to you know and maybe
even questions where there's not a right
answer but you know explain why what do
you think the company should do what's
the strategy that the company what are
the things that the company needs to
take into account and so those large
case study competitions that
universities have and the I'd like to
see more of that within the exam and not
as much of a and less of a Reliance on
multiple choice quite and I understand
there's great science behind them and
they're and it's not just a random
question that somebody's created but I
would like to see more of a synthesis of
all of that information that an exam
covers into
a more comprehensive approach that's a
very honest answer and talking to some
of my friends in education there's
certainly an accusation that A Levels
which is the main qualification in the
United Kingdom you would call it high
school over there in the US but we we
got very deep with three of our subjects
that those a-level exams that you come
out with at 18 have become easier and
the reason for that is because grades
have become higher
and some say it's because the exams have
become easier another says because the
study habits now and the online tools
and the videos and YouTubes and
everything else and the way we teach and
the way we learn and the coaching has
become more prevalent is there any
truth in accounting qualifications
becoming easier or
pass marks going down or more people
qualifying well I think for most exams
the pass rate stays fundamentally the
same okay I understand it may go from 45
to 48 or right I mean but but it kind of
bounces around that 45 to 55
percent but I think
well when I took the CPA exam there was
four exams and I had to go two exams on
Wednesday and two exams on Thursday wow
so it was
16 hours of exams over two days yeah
well now it's one exam at a time you
take one exam then you study for the
next exam and you and so
is that easier did they make the exam
harder
um and so with a pass rate too you know
you can
have a Target pass rate that you want to
achieve as an organization and get to
that I think it's it's a question that's
a very valid question is in terms of
what we expect from students even here
in high school college
um I you know I said my son's in college
and uh I guess I'm now old enough to be
one of those people that says when I was
young but I it seems like there's a
slightly different
um
requirement for exams and accounting
exams and I remember when I was in
college and so you know a different
culture I guess different way that
students learn and what we expect of
them probably starting very early in
their educational career
and with the younger generation you see
coming through if you were to Advocate a
more rigorous
case study based approach to
examinations how would that go down
that would be a tough sell wouldn't it
probably
um if it proves to be more difficult I
what I would like to do by making it
diff more difficult is to separate
people who've just memorized yes the in
the bullet points that's fair I want the
test to be more than just the bullet
points and this is one of the things
when we with our materials we try to
make it so that we want you to
understand the concepts I don't want to
give you a mnemonic device that these
are the five words you need to know yeah
I want you to know what those five words
mean what those five words represent why
we have those five words and not just in
the multiple choice question like oh
that one's not one of the five words I
memorized so therefore it must be right
answer or there's only one of the five
words I want it to be tell me about
those five words what's the why is that
number important why did we learn these
five words and so I I would like to
think that for students who have taken
their preparation seriously
it really doesn't change their result
but for students that are just trying to
I'm going to memorize the the fewest
things I need to memorize I'm going to
hack it yeah yeah good to just try to
you know maybe I fail but I if I get
lucky on this one or I'll either get
lucky this attempt or the next one and
I'll make it yeah that's very fair Brian
this has been an excellent conversation
on the world of qualifications as it
pertains to the accounting World a
couple more questions to finish off we
will put on your our show notes Hawk
International Hawk training this stuff
that you do but for the benefit of
people that go to your website what kind
of things would they see and how can you
help them
we help people right now pass the
certified management accounting exam
which is as the name indicates
management accounting as I said it
covers some fun very good business
certification if you're an entrepreneur
if you're running your own business this
is what you need we also have certified
internal auditor
um materials helping people who want to
get into internal audit who are who or
who are already in internal audit we are
going to be rolling out probably by the
time this gets made out posted uh
enrolled agent the U.S tax certification
and we're just looking to kind of build
out a library of the support that we can
provide to professionals
um a growing library of exams we've been
doing it for 20 years now and we've
enjoyed every minute of it and we're
looking to to build out we've done CPA
in the past we might be doing CPA again
in the future
but it's just a matter of helping and
also one of the things I tell people is
if you talk to me about what exams you
should study I'm very likely to tell you
not to study one of the ones I have
material for because if it's not what's
going to serve you in your career I
don't want to I don't want you to spend
your time and money on something that in
two years you're gonna think what was he
talking about when he told me to do this
it's all personal in terms of what you
want to do with your career and whether
or not we can help you do that
is that a trend as well Brian are we
seeing more and more Niche specialist
qualifications where we have the
certified trusted advisor the Certified
International tax specialist and I'm
making these up but you get the idea
well you might not be there might
actually be those yeah it is becoming
one of the things too is that there's a
lot of certifications that are
essentially
courses that are offered by that body
then whatever body it is they've they've
got a self-study course they've got
their own course about you know
International tax planning and I
apologize if there is one that does this
but just an organization says oh we're
going to make a course and we're going
to make an exam and when
the exam is given by the same people
that write the materials and it's kind
of a closed Circle
that's almost like a continuing
education course that they're trying to
make into a certification and so the
those Niche certifications run that risk
of just becoming a just a closed Circle
a closed community but when you're
talking about Acca and SEMA and CPA
these are programs that universities run
yes that companies have programs that
all of their staff go through or they
internationally recognized yes and so
it's a matter of those certifications
are going to
still be those leading certifications
that businesses want their people to do
because it's learning more than just one
little niche thing but yes there are
going to be all kinds of Niche
certificates that are created partially
Because the Internet allows those Niche
Professionals in different countries to
connect whereas 20 years ago
they may not have had that opportunity
to connect to create a body to
to put together an exam but now they can
and quickly Brian do you play in the CP
space in the UK we call it continued
professional development CPD are you in
that at this moment no we're not I would
expect by the end of the year we
probably will be because that's how
qualifications stay relevant current up
today isn't it well ideally that's how
it is as long as the CPE continues to
stay relevant to what's happening and I
think one of the things is you take tax
if you're a tax professional your tax
CPE every year needs to be
the tax code for whatever jurisdictions
it is that you're that you're working in
if you're looking at accounting or
auditing a lot of it needs to be I.T
based in terms of the technology the
tools the analytics
um just even the amount of data that's
collected every day these days increases
um and so yeah CPE is important it's
what makes my 30 year old CPA exam
hopefully still means something if I I
I'm not licensed I haven't maintained it
but hopefully helps that have value
going forward and you don't sit down and
ask your CPA for advice and you get 30
year old advice based on when they took
the exam yeah but yeah that it's it's a
an important market and one that
hopefully is adding value and isn't just
a again getting back to making it more
difficult not just a tick box that says
yes I sat through this webinar for 45
minutes and I answered three poll
questions and therefore I get
an hour of CPE or whatever the case may
be it's a bit of a mockery isn't it I
find a question Brian this has been
fascinating let's get your crystal ball
out you've been in this game a long time
you've seen a lot of change here and
you've seen a lot of good things built
into the qualifications and
accreditations what do you think we're
going to be in five ten years what will
things look like then from what you see
now
I think there's going to be
a recognition that there's a lot more
International connection and
certifications are going to start
becoming more relevant around the world
and not just a national certification
but there's going to be some element of
hey you know International is part of
business today
um I think I also hope that
people begin to think past just the exam
right now I think a lot of people see
their certification as I took the exam
I'm done I'm going to do my CPE every
year tick the boxes and put it on my
business card
there needs to be a development of the
profession itself and the professional
organizations that you're a member of
once you pass these exams that's all the
networking that staying current that's
actual continuing education when you go
to these conferences and events where
they have speakers from businesses and
people that are implementing these
things and people that are dealing with
chat GPT in their business and their
Tech and their service or however it is
that they're dealing with it and so I
would like to see a continued growth of
the profession
part of professional certifications
certifications I think is very well
developed and everybody knows those but
there's actually two words professional
certification
and so I think maybe there's going to be
a development I'd like to see a
development of that professional part
that organization those skills in
addition to just the debits and credits
but what it means to be a professional
well what would go a long way towards
that Brian to put in my two penny worth
as we say here is stopping calling it an
accounting industry and starting to call
it an accounting profession because it
came to the legal profession and the
medical profession these people sweat
Blood and Tears to get the
qualifications and then demean it by
making it blue collar no offense but
putting industry next to it and so many
influencers and people within accounting
use that face particularly in the US I
have to say
well it is a profession and yes and part
of being a profession is main well one
of the I look at as being part of a
profession is you're aware that others
around you are part of it yes and that's
not just you against the world but if
I'm an accountant and you're an
accountant we we're connected to each
other and how what you do as an
accountant will reflect a little bit on
me and and when you see the companies go
bankrupt two weeks after their audit
report came out that everything is fine
there's a there's a hit to the
profession there that people begin to
say well wait a second they just got an
audit report that said everything's fine
two weeks later they're under
it I mean the ink wasn't even dry yet
yeah and there's problems and so that's
part of being a profession that what
happens within one part of the
profession does impact both positively
and negatively you know it's one of the
things I say when you're whatever
certification you are the only reason
that certification has value is because
the people who came before you
got that certification and did well
and the business Community said hey you
know I know somebody who had that
certification they did really well I'm
going to give you a benefit of the doubt
I'm going to hire you hoping that you
share those same characteristics as the
other people I know with that
certification and that whole profession
is part of that
Amen to that Brian Hawk superb message
thanks so much for your passionate and
you're interested that's been excellent
thank you
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