Integrating Circularity in the Supply Chain - Anois
Summary
TLDR这段视频脚本中,主持人麦迪逊采访了全球设计机构Anish的创始人兼全球设计总监弗兰克·奥康纳,他是一位拥有30多年循环经济经验的行业领袖。弗兰克分享了他如何将系统设计思维应用于组织战略,以促进可持续性、循环性和责任性贯穿整个价值链。他强调了设计思维、商业模式、品牌价值和供应链之间的联系,以及如何通过多方利益相关者合作来实现这些目标。此外,弗兰克还讨论了他与联合国的合作,以及如何将欧洲的可持续实践应用到全球范围内,特别是在发展中国家。他鼓励企业诚实透明地与消费者沟通,即使在追求完美的过程中可能会犯错。最后,他强调了跨行业合作的重要性,以及如何通过分享知识和最佳实践来共同推动向可持续和循环经济的转型。
Takeaways
- 🌟 弗兰克·奥康纳是全球设计机构Anish的董事,专注于可持续性和循环经济的设计价值创造。
- 📚 他在循环经济领域拥有30多年的行业领导经验,专长包括政府政策、商业实践、生态设计教育以及可持续和循环经济发展。
- 🏆 弗兰克创立并领导了2006年的获奖生态设计中心,致力于推动系统设计视角,帮助组织构建涵盖价值链、供应链、品牌、产品包装和商业模式的全面战略。
- 🔄 他强调了循环经济的重要性,认为循环性是可持续设计的一个子集,而可持续性是一个更广泛的概念,包括社会、伦理、环境和经济元素。
- 💼 弗兰克认为,设计应从一开始就考虑减少浪费,并且产品设计应与业务模式相结合,以实现资源的最大化利用和最小化环境影响。
- 🔗 他提倡跨行业合作,通过分享知识和最佳实践来促进不同行业间的学习和改进。
- 🛠️ 弗兰克强调了设计思维的重要性,认为设计不仅仅是为了客户,还要考虑运输、分发、服务行业、包装以及产品的回收和再制造。
- 🌐 他分享了与联合国和欧盟委员会合作的经验,强调了在不同国家和地区推广可持续实践的重要性,以及根据当地情况调整策略的必要性。
- 🔍 弗兰克认为,企业需要采取系统视角,理解产品在整个生命周期中的影响,并寻找方法来保持材料的循环利用。
- 🤝 他提倡企业间的诚实和透明,鼓励企业公开其可持续实践的进展和挑战,以及他们计划如何改进。
- 🚀 弗兰克鼓励创新和持续改进,相信通过分享知识和最佳实践,企业可以不断提高其可持续性表现。
Q & A
弗兰克·奥康纳是谁,他在循环经济领域有哪些专长?
-弗兰克·奥康纳是全球设计机构Anish的董事,拥有超过30年的循环经济行业领导经验。他专长于政府政策、商业实践、生态设计教育以及可持续和循环经济的整体发展。
Anish机构的使命是什么?
-Anish机构的使命是通过系统设计视角,帮助组织制定战略,将价值链、供应链、品牌、产品包装和商业模式整合在一起,以实现可持续性、循环性和责任贯穿整个价值链。
弗兰克·奥康纳如何看待循环经济和可持续性之间的关系?
-他认为循环性是可持续设计的一个子集。对他来说,可持续性是全面的,包括社会、伦理、环境和经济要素。循环性虽然重要,但应在可持续性的整体框架内考虑,确保产品在不损害环境和人民的情况下,通过设计和技术手段实现资源的最大化利用。
在设计产品时,为什么需要考虑整个价值链?
-考虑整个价值链可以确保产品设计不仅满足客户需求,还要适应运输、分发、服务、包装、回收、再利用和再制造等环节。这有助于减少对地球的损害,并确保材料能够为后代所用。
弗兰克·奥康纳如何定义真正的成本,并如何将其纳入产品设计?
-真正的成本是指在整个价值链中纳入所有外部性的成本。这包括环境影响、社会影响和经济影响。在产品设计时纳入真正的成本概念,可以促进对资源的负责任使用,并推动企业采取更加可持续和循环的做法。
为什么跨行业合作对于推动可持续性和循环经济至关重要?
-跨行业合作可以促进不同行业之间的知识共享,因为不同行业的企业可以在没有直接竞争的情况下更开放地分享他们的供应链管理、商业模式和可持续性实践。这种合作有助于企业学习并实施更有效的可持续策略。
在推动循环经济的过程中,企业应该如何处理罕见或关键材料的使用?
-企业应该意识到罕见或关键材料的稀缺性,并评估其在整个产品生命周期中的影响。可能需要重新考虑产品设计,以减少对这些材料的依赖,或者寻找替代材料,以确保资源的可持续利用。
如何确保企业在实施可持续供应链时采取整体或全面的方法?
-企业需要采取整体方法,考虑产品设计、业务模式、价值链和供应链的每个环节。这包括与多方利益相关者进行合作,确保从原材料采购到产品最终处置的每个步骤都符合可持续性和循环经济的原则。
为什么说透明度和诚实对于企业在可持续性和循环经济中的成功至关重要?
-透明度和诚实有助于建立消费者和利益相关者的信任。当企业公开其可持续实践、挑战和进步时,它们能够展示其对可持续性的承诺,并鼓励消费者和其他企业采取类似行动。
弗兰克·奥康纳如何帮助企业识别和解决他们在可持续性和循环经济方面面临的真正问题?
-通过与企业进行深入对话和合作,弗兰克·奥康纳帮助它们识别整个价值链中的关键问题,并提供定制化的解决方案。这可能涉及挑战传统的业务模式,提出创新的设计思路,或者促进与其他行业或部门的合作。
在推动可持续性和循环经济的实践中,企业如何确保他们的实践与品牌价值观保持一致?
-企业需要确保他们的可持续性和循环经济实践与品牌价值观相一致。这可能包括在产品设计、材料选择、生产过程和营销策略中体现这些价值观。通过这种方式,企业可以在市场上建立一个与其可持续性承诺相符的强大品牌形象。
Outlines
😀 欢迎与介绍
本段介绍了视频的开场,主持人向观众介绍了嘉宾Frank O'Connor,他是全球设计机构的负责人,专注于可持续性和循环经济的设计。Frank拥有超过30年的循环经济行业领导经验,专长于政府政策、商业实践、生态设计教育以及可持续和循环经济发展。此外,他还创立并领导了获奖的生态设计中心。主持人表达了对Frank的欢迎,并期待与他就循环经济和可持续性进行对话。
🔄 循环经济与系统设计
Frank O'Connor分享了他和他的合作伙伴Jude Cherry创建的机构——Aniish的使命,该机构采用系统设计视角,将价值链、供应链、品牌、产品包装和商业模式整合在一起,帮助组织看到更大的图景,理解不同连接如何工作,并制定真正嵌入可持续性、循环性和责任感的策略。
🚀 从废物到资源的转变
Frank讲述了他如何从1988年开始关注废物问题,并提出封闭循环经济的概念,这后来发展成为循环经济。他在日本公司工作期间开始考虑如何设计出浪费更少的产品,并与大型全球企业合作,推动从设计初期就考虑减少废物的理念。他还提到了在90年代末与一家日本公司合作,探索如何将产品重新带回市场,而不仅仅是回收它们,这让他意识到商业模式的重要性。
🌐 可持续发展与品牌价值
Frank分享了他在21世纪初与生产环保产品的公司合作的经历,强调了设计与品牌价值相结合的重要性,并提出了道德品牌与循环商业模式相结合的观点。他还提到了在设计中考虑废物作为资源的重要性,并强调任何浪费都应被视为设计缺陷。
🌟 国际合作与知识共享
Frank讨论了他与联合国的合作,特别是在亚洲、非洲、东欧和拉丁美洲的工作,旨在将欧洲的循环经济理念和实践带给发展中国家。他强调了共享学习、理解不同地区、行业和文化的需求,并根据当地情况调整政策的重要性。
🔧 循环性与可持续性的区别
在这段对话中,Frank分享了他对可持续性与循环性之间关系的看法。他认为循环性是可持续设计的一个子集,强调了可持续性是一个包含社会、伦理、环境和经济元素的全面概念。他指出,尽管循环性很重要,但它需要与责任和伦理元素结合在一起,以确保产品和供应链在环境和社会责任方面的可持续性。
🤝 合作与战略制定的重要性
Frank强调了在设计和实施可持续供应链时,与各利益相关方合作的重要性。他分享了自己在设计可回收产品时的经验,以及如何通过与不同行业和部门的合作,找到更有效的解决方案。他还讨论了如何将设计思维与商业模式相结合,以及如何通过教育和政策制定来支持可持续实践。
🔗 连接独立供应链与循环经济
在视频的最后部分,Frank讨论了如何将各个独立的可持续供应链连接到更广泛的循环经济中。他分享了通过跨行业合作和知识共享来促进不同公司之间的学习和合作的经验。他还强调了在不同行业之间建立联系的重要性,以及如何通过这种方式促进创新和更有效的资源利用。
Mindmap
Keywords
💡可持续性
💡循环经济
💡生态设计
💡价值链
💡多方利益相关者
💡品牌价值
💡透明度
💡责任
💡系统设计
💡教育
Highlights
Frank O'Connor是全球设计机构Anish的董事,专注于可持续性设计和循环经济。
Anish机构的使命是帮助组织构建涵盖整个价值链的可持续、循环和负责任的战略。
Frank拥有超过30年的循环经济行业领导经验,并在政府政策、商业实践和环境设计教育方面有专业经验。
Frank创立并领导了获奖的生态设计中心,致力于推动多利益相关者协作和系统思维。
循环经济与可持续发展之间的关系被讨论,强调了循环性是可持续设计的一个子集。
Frank强调了设计废物减少和资源再利用的重要性,并分享了他早期在设计和废物管理方面的经验。
在90年代,Frank与苹果、戴尔、IBM和微软等大型全球公司合作,推动设计以减少废物产生。
Frank讨论了设计、商业模式和循环利用之间的关系,以及如何将这些元素整合到可持续性中。
他分享了在欧洲委员会和中国政府间的贸易项目中,如何推动产品和材料的多生命周期价值链。
Frank强调了透明度、问责制和系统视角在推动循环经济中的重要性。
他讨论了与联合国的合作,以及如何将欧洲的循环经济理念应用到发展中国家。
Frank分享了如何通过设计思维和系统设计方法,帮助企业实现从线性到循环的转变。
他讨论了供应链中不同部门间的合作,以及如何通过跨部门学习促进知识共享。
Frank强调了企业在推动可持续性变革中的责任,以及如何通过教育和政策制定来支持这一变革。
他分享了如何识别和解决企业在可持续供应链管理中遇到的实际问题。
Frank讨论了如何通过跨行业合作,促进不同行业间的资源和知识共享。
他强调了分享知识和最佳实践的重要性,以及如何通过开放和合作来推动创新。
Transcripts
good morning everyone today i'm here
with frank o'connor who is the director
of global design
agency anish it was created uh
to create value and design for
sustainability and circularity
he has been a industry leader in
circular economy
for 30 plus years with specialized
experience in government policy
business practice education for eco
design
and overall sustainable and circular
economy
development it is an absolute pleasure
to welcome here today
in addition to all of his expertise he
founded and led the award-winning eco
design center
in 2006 and it's my absolute pleasure to
welcome him so without further ado
um frank welcome i'm really excited to
talk to you about circularity
and sustainability and get this
conversation going thank you madison and
thanks very much for the invitation i'm
delighted to be here
speaking to you today great i wanted to
just jump in here and kind of allow you
to share
what you're doing on a day-to-day basis
and with that
i would like to know what really is the
mission of a niche
yes so um it's very much a system design
perspective
myself my partner jude cherry we set it
up a number of years ago
it was very much based on our combined
experience of looking at sustainability
over the last 20 30 years like i set out
in the late
80s uh calling for a circle economy in
ireland in my
uh similar thesis in 1989 so it was very
much
what we realized over time there was a
lot of interesting work happening
in isolation but someone needed to very
much take a systems lens so what we've
done with a niche
is very much uh setting strategy with
organizations around the idea bringing
the value chain supply chain
the brand the product packaging and the
business model together
so very much helping organizations to
see the bigger picture
how the different connections work and
then which with that setting a strategy
that really embeds sustainability
circularity and responsibility
right across the entire value chain
that's amazing i think it's very
important and something that we also
stand by at ica is the idea of
looking at all the pieces along the
supply chain and that bigger picture
like you just mentioned
and then going back and figuring out
important strategies to really help
you know the industries and understand
what we can do to make these
transformations
and i think you know i want to talk to
you now about how are you currently
transforming the supply chain space uh
you know business space
to be more circular and you know maybe
if you'd like
you can touch upon your expertise
currently but also your past
experience with unito and the european
commission as well because i know that
over the past 30 years you've continued
to be a leader in this industry
so your experience you know is
really really wide and i'd like to get
your opinion on what you're currently
doing and
maybe some things in your past that
you've also done
great yeah well what i'll do is i'll
kind of give you a quick journey through
how i've come to this point and i think
it helps set the context
very much for what we're about at the
moment like when i set out
back in 1988 when i started my first
project
it was very very much a focus around
waste a recognition that we were
producing a lot
of waste and uh what i set out to do was
to understand why we were producing all
this waste and why it wasn't being
recognized as being a resource
and so that's when i called originally
for what i called a closed loop economy
back in the
80s which is very much evolved now into
the circle economy
it was it was a waste focus initially
and then i ended up working
doing a masters on design and ended up
working
in design within the japanese company
where i started to look at
how we could design out the waste
and turn it into resource instead of
looking at things like design
for recycling or design for repair
and so that was the early 90s and and so
around that time i worked with a lot of
the big i suppose global players like
apple
compact dell ibm microsoft and it was
around the idea that if we design it
right from the onset
the waste shouldn't be an issue but then
as i realized as the
as the decade went on i was doing a phd
between 95 and
and 2000 cell phone the phd and
multi-stakeholder life cycle
and i suppose techniques for design and
when i was doing that kind of
research in parallel i realized that a
lot of the design effort that we put in
in the early 90s
was not wasted wasn't fully thought out
so we were kind of learned about waste
being a resource and then i sort of
recognized you could design things
differently like recyclable repairable
but what i hadn't considered in the
early 90s was
the business model to go with it and so
i started working with a
consulting a japanese company in the
late 90s and they
they employed me to look at how they
could bring the products
back into life but not just recycle them
but bring them back into the market as
refurbished
we manufactured product and that's when
i began to recognize the business model
element was key as well
so you got your waste is resource you've
got your design
approaches and techniques and then you
got this business model to go with it
and so around the early zero zeros i was
working a lot with
companies who were producing what was
considered more eco-sustainable products
but also what they were doing is maybe
not really connecting that fully with
the design
rules that had been set in the past for
quality but also
there was a lack of understanding around
the value of the brand so i started to
connect more and more i suppose around
the early zero zeros the importance of
having an ethical brand
to match with that circular business
model that would go with that
sustainable eco design
and uh and and still keeping that
mindset that any waste is actually a
resource and it's very much a design
flaw
if it becomes a waste because there
should be always some way to connect it
back
now in parallel i suppose with that
you've got this kind of journey where
you go from
discussions in the 80s around closed
loop economy
and industrial ecology late 80s early
90s
and then you're moving very much into
the kind of
conversations around i suppose
industrial symbiosis obviously there's
an element of that but very much
around what is sustainable development
and then leading into that you have the
kind of whole
cradle the cradle movement coming into
zero zeros
and then that led to social economy but
as all of these kind of
economic discussions were happening i
suppose in parallel i was actually
working with different businesses and
realizing
very much that you had to take a systems
perspective so when i set up
what became a quite you know well-known
international research center and
i set up the ecosystem center in 2006
that was very much to bring those
connections together
to understand how systems worked but
through helix collaboration
so basically when i finished my phd i
kind of proved thesis that you needed to
develop multiple lifecycle products and
you needed to do that by
multi-stakeholder collaboration
along the value chain so i engage with
key value stakeholders doing my phd
and develop methodologies to do that so
when i set up the economic design center
in 2006 it was very much taking those
ideas forward
but to do so on a collaborative basis
between the public and the private
sector
so very much around the idea that we
would as an organization
fit into the middle of a triangle and
each one-sided
one one corner was government for policy
one was business in terms of
products and services and the other was
education in terms of courses
and as an organization we would move
between these and ensure the policies
fit the business
and the education gives the graduates
the right skills to go into the
companies to deliver the policies so
that was very much developing that
systems thinking element as well
around collaboration and then i carried
that forward into the
i supposed to about a decade ago where i
didn't decide that i needed to move on
to the next level where i left that
organization behind me because it was
it was something i tested and it was
working but i needed to kind of
innovate myself again and move much more
into a systems perspective
and so that's kind of leads to where we
are now where we're now in the
circular economy come bonus economy
which people are talking about but for
me
fundamentally it's still about the same
issues i'm interested in
sustainable products ethical brands
responsible value chains and circle
business models
and the idea that the four of those come
together to form a framework
for looking at any industry any sector
or any business
so myself my partner what we do is we
very much invade
obviously research international best
practices everything we do
but with a company it's very much about
making those connections so making sure
that everything you produce
it's what the business model is going to
offer it's with the value chain in terms
of where the supply comes from
and how you maintain that value and
continue beyond the single life into
multiple life
but also links back to brand values so
it's kind of um
while it's quite complicated because
it's a complex system
we also try and break it down to a level
that a business can understand
and put systems in place to actually
make it happen um so
really we asked certain questions to
complete and so that would mean that
a lot of companies aren't prepared to
have those conversations still which is
a pity but it's true
because we want everything to be trans
and transparent
we want full accountability and we want
companies to really take that system's
perspective
and so that will manifest itself true we
work with every sector from
food and drink uh to electronics to
consumer products to automotive to
furniture it's a whole mix of industries
and you mentioned briefly in terms of
the u.n and yeah i've been working with
the u.n since the um i suppose what 12
14 years at this stage possibly more and
that's been very much about
taking the thinking that me and my
various teams over the decades have been
trying out and bringing that to
developing and transition countries so
most of my work with the un is very much
working maybe
in asia africa eastern europe may be
working with latin american countries
it's very much working with
predominantly
policy makers in these countries but
also businesses as well
and some educational groups and it's
very much understanding what we're doing
in europe and also understanding what
they're doing as well and seeing what is
appropriate to transfer
and and would our policies be effective
there do you need a very different set
of policies so it's
really very much about building capacity
but not i suppose not
really forcing what we're doing because
obviously
depending on the region depending on the
sector depending on the culture
there's so many different factors you've
got to take into place but very much to
urine is very much about that shared
learning
and understanding that it's supposed to
be a responsibility to
share what we're learning in our regions
but also understand
you know i suppose the impact of what we
do what
how that impacts other parts of the
world and i suppose that's it when you
come to um
global supply chains or value chains
they you know
some products connect with most parts of
the world and then in terms of european
commission a lot of the work
um it's been again a mix of stuff but
very much around the idea of moving very
much away from just
focusing on single issues like energy
efficiency in products and buildings
to a more holistic perspective so recent
work is very much around the idea of
bringing
repair ability durability access to
spare parts
looking at much more holistic
sustainable indicators
for products and buildings and materials
in general so things like product
passports and
so i just finished a project recently uh
working with the european commission
and the chinese government particularly
looking at trade
and trade between those regions and what
that means from
each perspective whether you're a
company or policymaker or education
institute
and how we can ensure that we end up
with much more
of a multiple life cycle type i suppose
if you like value chains but also that
are fair
and socially just and you know obviously
you're not you know you've got things
like obviously employment you've got
things like
sharing the world but also very much
that impact that has on on the ecology
as well so
it's trying to bring that perspective
thank you so much for sharing it is
very fascinating just to see over these
years you know
how your role has kind of shifted but
you know at the end of the day like you
said you care about the set
set principles and whether that be you
know responsible
you know value chains and ethical
product design
think all of these things that you care
about you've found different ways to
apply that but
you're continuing to work towards that
and that holistic view is something that
really stands out to me throughout that
entire conversation and listening to you
know how you are
currently and how you have transformed
supply chain and value chains to be more
circular
and i think the idea of holistic is
really important as it kind of is
kind of a transition from just
sustainability to circularity and
accountability transparency really
taking it
to the next level and i think that
you are such an expert in this area and
this is something that i bring up with
a lot of different people i talk to in
the industry and i it's really
interesting because i always get
kind of a different perspective and my
question to you now is
after all of these different roles but
you know your common goals of
working towards the things that are
important in terms of circularity and
responsibility
what is the difference between just a
sustainable supply chain or value chain
and a circular supply chain or value
chain um you know
is it just taking it one step further or
you know
is sustainability enough or is
circularity really needed
you know and i think that at isda we our
education
program for the cssdp closes with a
chapter on circular economy because we
think that
that really is so important and you know
there's sustainable steps that you can
make along
the way of your supply chain but at the
end of the day circularity is the end
goal
you know from our understanding and so i
would like to get your opinion on that
and what really
differentiates sustainable practice from
circular practice
no it's no i mean it's very important i
mean it's an important
question um i suppose one of the things
i i would um
reflect a lot on i mean for me this has
been a
it's obviously been my career but um
it's also been my passion
i mean this is something i do because i
believe in it and
i suppose that's been reflected in my
work over the years you know i'm driven
by my motivation to change things and
when you think of things like
sustainability or circularity or
you know lots of terminology like i
mentioned earlier
you know when i started out there was
closed loops
and it was industrial ecology was
emerging
and then over the decades we've had
things like creating cradle and
performance economy and green
green economy and circular economy now
and then there's a lot of conversations
i don't know if they're happening much
and
over by you guys but in europe there's a
lot of conversations around the donors
economy which is again
just kind of like when it comes to
practical elements very much
similar to the circular economy but so
what i suppose what i would say a lot of
these sort of
terminology often can be quite trends
and they'll come and go but
like you say it's fundamentally it's
about the values behind it
and for me that's what i've kind of
maintained is that
core value system which was supposed was
embedded in me
as it happens by my parents and how i
grew up
and that was respect for i suppose
our fellow human beings and also respect
for the environment
my parents instilled that and that i
took that with me along my career
now the difference between
sustainability and circularity
i would probably view it quite
differently perhaps what you said there
is
to me circularity and i'm coming
predominantly
always from a design lens is circularity
is actually a subset of sustainable
design
so for me sustainability is
all-encompassing so you've got the
social you got the ethical
you got the environment and you got the
economic element
and the challenge with sustainability
has been
obviously because it's quite difficult
to define and agree what it is
but also the difficulty of bringing in
what what i define it and i suppose i've
been using the term for a number of
decades notice idea of true costs how
you bring in those externalities along
the entire value chain now me
circularity is very very important
but it really is a subset so like
recently i mean i say recently a couple
years ago i wrote a chapter for a book
where i looked at 25 years
of eco sort of sustainable design
within the electronic sector based in
the work i've done back in the 90s with
people like apple
and i looked at 25 years from like about
1993 to
maybe um get 25 years on from that and i
started to about
2018 and i sort of looked at what had
happened
and within that i kind of very much
framed circular
design and also you got your circular
supply chains
within the overall umbrella of
sustainability and i think that will
continue to do that so
for me circularity is very important but
a lot of circularity that i'm seeing in
practice
doesn't have the responsibility
the ethical elements embedded into it
so you can have products that are
circular and supporting supply chain
but they could still be doing damage to
the environment they could still be
damaging the people
or the environment everything produced
you know or
maybe there's other elements as well so
around energy consumption stuff so
circularity i think for me is
you know is quite narrow when in terms
of sustainability
now it's an interesting conversation
because i was based in the netherlands
up to a couple years ago and then we
moved we were looking relocated back to
ireland
in the last couple years and in the
netherlands a lot of conversations
three or four years ago was very much
around how you represented it there that
circularity is very much an advancement
of sustainability and i kind of never
really agree with that
to me so clarity is very important
but you got to put it in context the
main you got to get the
overall balance between like i say
ethics
social considerations environmental and
economic
and you've got abortion definitely you
know it's it's and it's not
well it's not easy i mean i'm doing it
over 30 years and i haven't got the
answers yet
but but you keep trying and i think it's
that true cost element you see circle
i've seen a lot of companies going down
the circular route and really what
they're doing
in many ways is just kind of and if you
like reinventing
what was before a recycling but now it's
a
circular you know but actually it's
still just recycling and i suppose the
challenge is to maintain the value of
the resources
to get get that value across the value
chain so it's a fair system
but also ensure that it's somehow
um obviously got the ethical elements as
well
so yeah so for me it's very much i think
that's super interesting because like
you said
you know you're in the netherlands and
you that's how it was presented to you
as
you know circularity was an advancement
of sustainability
and i think that's why i like to you
know ask everyone that i get to the
privilege of speaking with you know
their opinion on this because i think it
is very
dependent on where you are in the world
i think there's different
philosophies you know and i it's great
that you know everyone in this industry
like you said you know you've
kind of taken your career and you're
really passionate about this and i think
that
um at the end of the day we want to have
both you know
why not be sustainable and circular
because you know that covers both bases
um you know like like you just talked
about the importance of having ethical
practices
we want to make sure that one or the
other doesn't exclude those
practices you know in terms of right so
really it's just it sounds like such a
simple question
but it's something that is taken very
differently from you know
experts around the world and i think
it's a very interesting conversation
but at the end of the day like you're
saying it doesn't really the terminology
is
doesn't really matter it's that we want
to nail these practices down and
make sure that we're being accountable
in terms of business accountability
environmental accountability you know
transparency
ethical you know actions value chain
everything in that sphere the terminal
terminology is one thing but it's our
actions that are really the most
important absolutely and
i suppose one of the things i looked at
when i did that kind of 25-year study
i mean i realized a lot of the practices
that we were doing back in the 90s
they're still as relevant as today you
know so
you know that there was a lot of design
development solutions
tools techniques about in the early 90s
and i was involved with i was looking to
be involved with that kind of period
but there still is applicable no but
they might be called something else
and if you also because i suppose i've
always looked at design globally for
over 20 years
if you go for example to china or you go
to
europe or you go to the us you'll
probably find
that in china they'll call it
green design in europe they'll probably
call it
eco design in parts north america
they'll probably call it design for the
environment
and they'll probably if you sit down
with the different stakeholders you'll
probably find that they're all really
referring to the same thing now there
will be always some differences to
culturally as well
and that's kind of like the project we
were walking recently with china it was
really interesting because we were
sitting down with
policy makers businesses in china and we
were kind of bringing the european
perspective and that kind of
how you define it sometimes can actually
make it more difficult to progress and i
suppose i've always tried to bring it
back to
i was very lucky my first company that i
worked with my first major company that
i work because i work with smaller
companies but the first major company
was a japanese company
who basically instilled good practice
of value chains of manufacturing
no waste everything was value and you're
into your brilliant training for my
point of view from day one
and um so i kind of took that idea
forward that
if you're designing it's good design if
i call it sustainable you call it
circular
fine but what we're both trying to do is
we're both trying to get the
maximum return for for the customer but
also making sure we're having minimal
damage on the planet and we're making
sure that the
materials that we use could be around
for future generations so you've got
for me and i suppose the conversation we
have with businesses
always goes back to the business values
what are those exactly
what are the values because it's how you
take those values and that's why a lot
of times medicine
you know when you work with certain
businesses they get uncomfortable
they're like oh i don't want to talk
about this element but actually this is
the fundamental element
you know that's why i know i watched
some of your previous interviews and
discussions and
i know patagonia has come up a few times
and um
yeah patagonia is one of those
interesting companies that manages to
have those conversations about values
you know and puts them out there
and also i suppose what we always
encourage to do is
it's very hard to try and be perfect
because it's a complex system but
do as best you can but be honest and be
opened
tell your customers and your
stakeholders this is how far i've got
yes it's not ideal but i'm trying to get
to the next stage and tell them how
you're trying to get the next stage and
i always think like
companies like patagonia it's their
honesty
it's what you buy into you buy into the
fact that you they say
what they do on the team and they'll do
their best to make it the best product
and they'll provide the best service
and if they make a mistake they'll put
their hands out there and say yes we've
made a mistake
and it's because that is is the key to
us
and uh you know i suppose um
you know like um that's that's
challenging for like homies maybe
there's a fear element and i can
understand why you know
it's such a competitive global markets
and stuff but ultimately
we need more of those patagonias telling
it
as it is you know to really begin to
disrupt
the global market and it will take time
for sure i hear you on that and i think
that
you know we talk about that terminology
it's the end of the day it's just the
terminology and it's going to change
with time and place but
to communicate these practices and to
really inspire these companies to make
transformations
it is kind of the way in which we have
to speak to them um to educate them
using these terms so as much as
you know people like you and me in the
sustainability sphere
are like the term isn't really that
important it's the practice and it's the
transparency behind the term
um you know it is a way to communicate
between the sustainability and the
business sector so
at the end of the day we really need to
you know continue to work towards those
type of things and i think that
like you said you know talking about
giving the example of patagonia you know
they're a great example of someone that
continues to be
transparent and accountable and um it's
you know very supportive of
their hard work um and i i guess i'm
gonna shift gears just a little
bit here and move on to kind of the idea
of
what you think the most important
sustainable practices are
to minimize gaps in circular supply
chain and
maybe you can touch upon the importance
of collaboration
and the creation of strategy with
stakeholders um i know that's something
you're definitely an expert in you know
we've talked you've talked about
stakeholders and
um the idea of having a really designed
strategy to
kind of combat these
efficiencies yeah and that's you know i
suppose
something i i suppose what i learned
early on in my career by making mistakes
like i said we
the first flagship project i was
involved with which was
a computer keyboard we designed it
as a team to be recyclable and
this is to disassemble it to recycle it
and then some years later i went to the
recycling company and found that they
weren't
taking it apart they were actually
shredding it and that was kind of a
you know real lesson to me was the
reason they weren't
taking it apart like we expected was
there wasn't the value in it for them it
was more value to shred it
and turn it into fluff and i suppose you
know that's kind of
shows very much that need to have that
conversation up front and so my phd was
very much about
how can you have those often
conversations
if i design here in my studio in
isolation
you know it might be a nice functional
product but really would it be
appropriate for the value chain and i
think
collaboration is ultimately key and it's
how you get
you know if you've got a design in
mindset for the customer which has
always been the
obviously focus of design but also it's
got to be
for transport distribution it's got to
be
for maybe the service industry packaging
for for beyond the customer maybe take
back reuse remanufacturing so it's kind
of that
wider what i would call multiple
stakeholder perspective
how you get their input around the table
at the early stage of design and then
you link that to the business model
i mean that's ultimately seems to be the
big challenge since
still i mean i'm still talking to large
global businesses
who already know i suppose after
conversation go oh okay
like they're gonna come to us with a
design problem
and they'll go away with a business
model problem
because we'll say look guys the design
is not the issue here
it's the business model and the business
model requires
much broader conversations and it
requires you to
know from the outset what's going to
happen to your product beyond that two
years of use
and if you really want to keep those
materials in circulation
you might decide not to sell it you
might decide to lease it
and if you decide to lease it then you
know you might decide to bring it back
and if you decide to bring it back then
you might decide to design it
in such a way that it's far more modular
and those modules can easily be service
repaired or replaced
maybe it's the aesthetic cover on the
outside whatever it is
but it's a different mindset of thinking
and that requires a far more extensive
form of collaboration
so it's it's a collaboration that really
i think
pushes the boundaries for businesses in
terms of
trust and two-way dialogue because i
suppose a lot of supply chain stuff has
been very much
forced on the lower tiers you got to do
this because
you know we need you to do this but
really this type of
i suppose fully sustainable software
system
requires a much more of a dialogue and i
suppose for us we're still finding that
is that you know people say oh we need a
lot of new design solutions well
actually
a lot of the design tools and techniques
and methods for for disassembly repair
etc
they are there for quite a while okay
not more is that link
to the business model and then somehow
to ensure that it goes across the value
chain and uh so a lot of our
conversations like i say is um
we actually end up not having the
clients because we go away and say
that's not your problem your problem is
a different problem
and they go oh god i didn't think of
that before and you have this
conversation and then they go away
and they have to come back when they're
ready but they're like i said it could
be that they have to speak to different
people
maybe they have to start out themselves
i mean i have had businesses
who've come specifically to help for me
to help them
design products to be recycled and i've
said no
and they got frustrated in fact it was a
business that i ended up
speaking for quite a few months to all
the senior managers
that i'd have them around the table they
don't listen to me for hours which was
quite unusual
but i would never do what they wanted me
to do and eventually
they agreed to go with what i was saying
was basically what i was saying is you
need to look
at your entire value chain forest and
understand
that if you design that particular
product to be disassembled
it's never going to be disassembled so
you're going to waste your design time
you're going to put all these little
techniques in but no one's ever going to
take it apart
and so when we mapped out them what we
found was
that actually they were using a material
in their product
which was a rare or critical rare
material
and they hadn't realized how rare it was
and they also hadn't realized that at
the time
the chinese government had bought up a
lot of business and brought up a lot of
processing capacity for that material so
anyway long story short
the problem that businesses sometimes
think they have is not the problem
and that's where you would not expose
you know come in a lot of ways and go
okay bounce it over to us and that's why
we have a session now where we do like a
one-hour session with businesses which
is like
just basically intense one hour they
throw all the problems at us and we kind
of bounce out these bathrooms
that works quite well you know i mean
for us sometimes it means that we
probably won't get as many clients
because we're actually pushing back
stuff to them saying look you got to
start this stuff out for us
yeah you you know for sure and i think
you've definitely brought up so many
different points
just within that and the idea that you
know strategy is
like something earlier you talked about
the word holistic and
um something at isda we also talk about
it
our sustainable supply chain courses
developed in mind
the chapters build upon each other you
know it's important that you take a step
back and look at the entire process
because sometimes like you're saying um
you know one person might think they
have a certain issue
but it's actually derived from something
way earlier on in the value chain or
a practice that they should also work on
as well and i think
that's really you know what you're
talking about here is the idea of
again that a holistic view and that
creation of strategy that
is taking everything into mind and you
know it at first it might seem like a
lot but at the end of the day
there is ways to find you know
profitability and maintain the business
model
while still making these changes and
it's just a shift in mindset
and looking at it in a different way
perhaps and that's you know where
you can come in and really help these
corporations and these industries
understand
the most important and the most
sustainable ways about going about
making these changes
definitely definitely that's a ja and
that's it it's very much i suppose
you know combined with like over 50
years that's what we do is like say you
kind of
best way companies can use this a lot of
times it's like a sounding board a
critical board someone can just bounce
over to us and say
what you think and like you say it's a
lot of times
it's not what businesses expect you know
they're not because i suppose
because we were us as a business we were
set up with a very strong
we're both i suppose big into the
ethical aspect of business and
um so our business that's our
foundational values so how we work with
other people is we're not necessarily
looking to generate work we're looking
to provide solutions for companies to
make a difference so
it's quite a different approach so we
don't want clients to be dependent on us
we want
clients to be independent you know
interdependent to certain extent with us
and other stakeholders that they're
constantly involved in learning
but it's like we what we want to do is
build their capacity but also like say
it's asking the right
i mean a lot of this medicine really is
asking the right questions you know
yeah it's that idea of you know sharing
the body of knowledge and collaborating
in that sense as well
it's you know for you you know giving
you helping
industry understand solutions and uh
creating
strategy and design that they can then
take and become independent and
hopefully
continue to use on a day-to-day basis in
their value chain operations their
supply chain practices
similar to us you know we we hope that
they take the education from our courses
and they go out there and really
start to implement these changes at the
end of the day that's you know what we
both want in the sustainable spheres
to actually help people understand it's
you know
for a while it's like why are we hiding
you know all of this knowledge you know
let's get it out there and see what
people
can do because at the end of the day i
really think maybe i have a positive
outlook on this but i'm optimistic in
the sense that
you know when people know better they
hopefully will start to
do a little bit better and it's always a
step in the right direction and
you know if we aren't out here trying to
stress the importance of collaboration
and creation of eco design strategies
and so forth you know we really aren't
doing our best and i think that it's
something that
you've shown you know at the end of the
day you really just you're passionate
about this and you want to make those
changes
you know regardless of industry i think
it's something that
definitely shines throughout this
conversation um
and i think you know just to wrap up
here we've talked about so many great
things and
uh i want to get your just your last
take on
how can we connect you know individual
sustainable supply chains you know
supply chains that are sustainable in
themselves you know correct maybe you
work with
one one industry and they have you know
really
narrowed down their practices and
they're being ethical they've maintained
their circularity
etc etc but how can we connect those
individual
independent supply chains to the overall
idea of a circular economy or a
sustainable economy
you know should how important is that
industries are intertwined
and or should they remain you know
circular or independent with themselves
well i suppose no it's a good question a
complicated question really but
it's interesting because over the years
what i've
found and i've done a lot of um
cross-sector type
and knowledge sharing and capacity
building and what i mean by that is i've
developed a lot of programs for uh i
suppose national international programs
to develop businesses and around those
i've usually built in the idea that if
you have different sectors talking to
each other
you can learn a lot so the past i would
have got like
maybe food and drink chatting the
furniture uh
chatting to solar technology maybe or
you know my
heavy manufacturing or whatever and i
found that
you could get a lot by bringing
different sectors together because
actually
they wouldn't feel like they're in
competition with each other so they're
automatically more open
but also there's a lot of sharing and
knowledge around how they manage their
supply chain or their business model or
whatever so on that level
i think bringing these different sectors
together makes a lot of sense because
what i found was we managed to bring a
lot of knowledge sharing
across different sectors so in other
words even if a company was already
pretty good
they could learn a lot from another
company maybe it's something small maybe
something big so that
i think is very important and then i
suppose
you know it's i suppose it's hard to
force companies to go to do it anything
is in the day they're all really busy
and stuff but i suppose
it is the kind of holy grail in many
ways is how you can kind of
get them to keep engaging and making
their supply chains better
um i'm not really sure other than
um you know because there's a lot of
focus on
um maybe kind of carrot or stick
how do you get companies to change do
you have to force them to exchange or do
you have to
incentivize them and i'm guessing from
experience over the last 30 years
you probably need a bit of both um but
the companies that are doing stuff good
you want those companies to
share what they're doing but like of
course you know learn from each other
it goes back to that whole collaboration
idea you know maybe
there's two different corporations in
different industries and they're
producing different things but
the values and the principles behind
their value chains and their supply
chains they are parallel in a sense that
they're both ethically maintained and
they're being you know transparent about
their practices those are things you
know shared knowledge
like yourself you're talking about here
and you know
potentially i think something
interesting we can talk about maybe you
know
for example the idea of product design
and maybe there's a piece of your
product that you can't
circle back into your value chain but
maybe a different industry could use
that spare part
absolutely absolutely i mean we had some
really interesting collaborations over
the years i mean
i suppose much more than expected you
know bringing these different companies
together in different programs
and uh yeah it's been amazing you know
like you said it could be something like
a tangible component or material
but it might be just knowledge of how
you deal with supplier how you educate
suppliers in terms of
sustainability absolutely you know
they've been
those discussions have been extremely
rich whereas i found when you bring
four or five companies together from the
same sector
they're a bit fearful i guess because of
maybe they see them as competition
and you know but they open up their
doors they take them around the factory
run production and they share so much
stuff and even the companies i've found
over the years that i've done the
programs with
they were maybe a bit skeptical issue
like what are we going to listen to what
are we going to learn about
from a disabled sector but then they're
like oh i'm so enthusiastic
and then when the program finishes the
companies end up maintaining the
relationship
because they're realizing that you know
we're all in beginning today we're all
in the same
similar journey we're all trying to do
the right thing i mean most people out
there
you know are trying to do the right
thing sometimes it's just we don't have
the tools and knowledge or
our capacity to do it and it's a lot of
times we just follow
that we follow the skills but people
have good intentions and
uh it's how you i suppose the challenge
over the years has always been how you
make it as
easy as possible to bring those
connections together and
again there's no holy grail but you just
have to keep trying stuff but definitely
madison bringing different companies
from different sectors together i found
it
to be a very rich experience for
everyone for sure and at the end of the
day you know
something you can grow and we're all
taking from the same planet
so you only have one we all originating
from the same
you know source of resources and you
know if you're creating something from a
finite resource stock
regardless of the industry there's a
need to work together to
you know find a better solution and you
know
i think it'd be very interesting to have
a conversation later on and just
the surprising amount of partnerships
like you talked about i would love to
hear more about that maybe at a later
time
on you know for example what industries
are you know taking spare parts from
each other and how are these
um supply chains becoming intertwined i
think that would be a very interesting
topic for them
exactly and i suppose i've always had
this idea i suppose i'm an idealist you
know i believe
anything is possible i've always
believed that so i think change is
always possible
that's why i'm so passionate now as i
would have been 30 years ago because
i've always believed we can change
things but i suppose
around that i've also had this idea that
this is an abundance
so that the more you can let go the more
it frees you up to bring in new
knowledge so my
idea from the outset has always been
about the more i learn about stuff
the more i give it away it's been my
work with my clients and my friends and
my networks
and it's the same i find on this kind of
sustainability level
if you give out your ideas about what
you're doing
and people going well actually people
are going to be able to compete no that
frees you up
to innovate to the next level you know
and that's the way my career is
you know it's really at the end of the
day mindset and you know
like i said before being optimistic you
know in a
in a place that can seem overwhelming
it's a space that for a lot of
industries is new to them but it's
people like you that continue to work
hard over these past 30 plus years and
you know make it easy for corporations
to understand and really implement these
changes and
thank you you know i thank you so much
for being here with us today and sharing
your optimism and your passion
um it definitely goes without being said
i walk away from this conversation
with the ideas that you know for you
traceability and ethical practices as
well as value chain responsibility is
also important and
it's it's really important that we
continue to work towards these practices
and
you know 30 plus years of expertise
is phenomenal and you know i really
appreciate your time today and getting
the opportunity to speak with you and i
i could see us you know talking in the
future again about these
interesting partnerships and how you're
continuing to transform this space
great well thanks a million looks a
pleasure to chat to you madison and
uh look the best to look with everything
and uh yeah look forward to chatting in
the future hopefully
a nice one yeah great thank you so much
thank you madison
you
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