Modos de ver John Berger 1972 Episodio 2. Subtítulos español

Summary

El guion explora cómo la desnudez femenina en la pintura europea tradicional refleja la mirada masculina y la objetivación de la mujer. Se analiza cómo la mujer se convierte en un espectáculo, evaluada y disfrutada visualmente por el espectador, especialmente por el hombre. La desnudez se presenta como una forma de vestimenta, una máscara que oculta la identidad real de la mujer, y no como una expresión de libertad o autenticidad. La narrativa critica la idealización y la pasividad impuestas a la mujer, y sugiere que estas representaciones han influido en cómo las mujeres ven a sí mismas hoy en día.

Takeaways

• 👤 La cultura de la mirada masculina juega un papel crucial en cómo las mujeres ven a sí mismas, constantemente evaluadas y comparadas con ideales estéticos.
• 🎨 En la pintura europea, las mujeres suelen ser representadas desnudas no como seres libres sino como objetos de deseo y placer para el espectador masculino.
• 🤔 La desnudez en el arte no es simplemente la ausencia de ropa; implica ser vista desnuda por otros, lo que puede convertirse en una forma de disfraz imputable.
• 🌍 La visión de la mujer en la pintura refleja convenciones y criterios de belleza que varían según la época y la cultura, pero a menudo perpetúan estereotipos de género.
• 👀 La mirada de los cuadros de mujeres desnudas es a menudo dirigida hacia el espectador, creando una dinámica en la que la mujer se percibe como objeto de deseo más que como sujeto activo.
• 🏆 La competencia y el juicio estético en la representación de mujeres desnudas, como en el mito de París, contribuyen a la noción de belleza como una cualidad competitiva y deseable.
• 🖼️ En la tradición artística, la desnudez de las mujeres se ha utilizado como una forma de vestimenta idealizada, en lugar de una expresión de la identidad o la sexualidad propias.
• 🤝 La interacción activa y equitativa en la representación del amor y la sexualidad es rara en la pintura, donde a menudo la mujer es presentada como pasiva y destinada a satisfacer el deseo del espectador.
• 💭 Las mujeres en la sociedad actual reflexionan sobre cómo las imágenes tradicionales de desnudez y belleza han influido en su autoimagen y en la forma en que se ven a sí mismas y a otras.
• 🔄 La crítica a la objetivación de la mujer en el arte y la cultura sugiere una necesidad de una representación más auténtica y diversa que refleje la complejidad y la agencia de las mujeres.

Q & A

¿Cómo se describe la percepción de las mujeres en la cultura de los europeos privilegiados?

En la cultura de los europeos privilegiados, las mujeres son vistadas principalmente como un objeto de mirada, una 'vista' para ser observadas.

Según el guion, ¿qué diferencia hay entre estar desnudo y ser un desnudo en el arte?

Está desnudo es estar sin ropa, mientras que ser un desnudo es ser visto sin ropa por otros, y no ser reconocido por uno mismo.

¿Qué revela el análisis de las pinturas al óleo europeas sobre cómo se juzgaban a las mujeres?

Las pinturas al óleo europeas muestran los criterios y convenciones por los cuales se juzgaban a las mujeres, cómo eran vistas y cómo su desnudez era un espectáculo para los que estaban vestidos.

¿Cómo se relaciona la historia de Adán y Eva con la percepción de la desnudez y el juicio en la cultura?

La historia de Adán y Eva muestra que la conciencia de estar desnudos surge tras comer la manzana, lo que cambia la forma en que se ven mutuamente, y la mujer es culpada y castigada por ser subordinada al hombre.

¿Qué sugiere el guion sobre la naturaleza competitiva de la belleza en el contexto de la 'Elección de París'?

La 'Elección de París' transforma la belleza en una competencia donde Paris elige a la mujer que encuentra más hermosa, lo que implica que la belleza se convierte en una cuestión de juicio y competencia.

¿Qué simboliza el espejo en la tradición de las pinturas al óleo europeas según el guion?

El espejo simboliza la vanidad de las mujeres, pero también refleja la hipocresía de los hombres que pintan a una mujer desnuda por placer y luego la condenan moralmente por su desnudez.

¿Qué opinan las mujeres entrevistadas sobre la influencia de las pinturas al óleo en su imagen propia?

Las mujeres entrevistadas consideran que las pinturas al óleo son idealizadas y no realistas, y no contribuyen a su imagen personal ni al placer de ver a otro cuerpo femenino.

¿Cómo se relaciona la desnudez con la identidad y el narcisismo según el guion?

La desnudez se relaciona con la identidad y el narcisismo, ya que se convierte en una forma de disfraz que no se puede quitar, y las mujeres se ven obligadas a 'vestirse' para el disfrute de los demás, en lugar de expresar su propia sexualidad.

¿Qué diferencia hay entre la forma en que los hombres y las mujeres se ven a sí mismos según los comentarios del guion?

Los hombres obtienen su imagen de sí mismos del mundo y sus acciones en él, mientras que las mujeres suelen obtener su imagen de los demás, lo que las coloca en una posición más pasiva en relación con su identidad.

¿Qué sugiere el guion sobre la importancia de la autoaceptación y la autodelight en la vida moderna?

El guion sugiere que la autoaceptación y la autodelight son importantes en la vida moderna, especialmente para las mujeres, ya que les permiten interactuar con el mundo de manera más auténtica y menos influenciada por las expectativas de los demás.

Outlines

00:00

👤 La mirada y la auto percepción de la mujer

Este párrafo explora cómo la mirada de los hombres hacia las mujeres y la auto percepción de estas influyen en su imagen y comportamiento. Se menciona que las mujeres son constantemente miradas y juzgadas, lo que las lleva a ser conscientes de su apariencia, especialmente en relación con los hombres. Se destaca la importancia de cómo las mujeres se ven a sí mismas y cómo esta percepción se refleja en la cultura, como en las pinturas al óleo europeas, donde las mujeres suelen ser vistas como objetos de deseo y juicio.

05:02

🍎 La historia de Adán y Eva y la creación de la conciencia del desnudo

Este párrafo analiza la historia bíblica de Adán y Eva y cómo su consumo del fruto del árbol del conocimiento los hizo conscientes de su desnudez, lo que simboliza la apariencia y la percepción de uno mismo y los demás. Se discute cómo la desnudez en la pintura europea se convierte en un medio para que los espectadores, generalmente hombres, juzguen y objetivizan a las mujeres, y cómo esto refleja la dinámica de poder y la subjetividad en la percepción del cuerpo femenino.

10:03

🎨 La desnudez en la pintura y la objetivación de la mujer

Este párrafo se enfoca en cómo la desnudez de las mujeres en la pintura al óleo ha sido utilizada para complacer al espectador masculino, y cómo esta práctica refleja una visión objetivante y de posesión. Se menciona que la desnudez en la pintura a menudo se presenta como una forma de vestimenta, donde las mujeres están expuestas y evaluadas por su apariencia, en lugar de ser vistas como seres con sus propias emociones y deseos.

15:05

👩‍🎨 La percepción de la mujer en el arte y la sociedad

Este párrafo presenta las opiniones de varias mujeres sobre cómo las imágenes tradicionales de desnudez femenina en el arte han influido en su auto percepción y en la sociedad. Se discute la idea de que estas imágenes pueden ser exageradas y no reales, y cómo esto puede afectar la forma en que las mujeres ven su cuerpo y su identidad. Las participantes reflexionan sobre la diferencia entre la imagen idealizada en el arte y la imagen que tienen de sí mismas, y cómo esto puede ser empoderador o limitante.

20:05

🤔 Narcisismo, identidad y la interacción con el mundo

Este párrafo explora la idea del narcisismo y cómo afecta tanto a hombres como a mujeres, pero de maneras diferentes. Se argumenta que mientras que la imagen de las mujeres se deriva de la percepción de los demás, la de los hombres proviene de su interacción con el mundo. Se discute cómo la identidad y el narcisismo pueden ser tanto positivos como negativos, y cómo la interacción con el mundo y la auto aprobación son cruciales para la formación de la identidad y la realización personal.

25:06

🌿 La autoaceptación y la libertad en la representación del cuerpo

Este párrafo reflexiona sobre la autoaceptación y la libertad en la representación del cuerpo, especialmente en el contexto de la desnudez. Se menciona cómo la mujer en la pintura a menudo se muestra en poses pasivas y cómo esto contrasta con la idea de estar en contacto con el mundo y con uno mismo. Se destaca la importancia de la autenticidad y la acción en la auto percepción, en lugar de la pasividad y el enfoque en la apariencia.

Keywords

💡mirada

La 'mirada' se refiere a la forma en que los hombres observan a las mujeres, y cómo esta observación influye en la percepción que las mujeres tienen de sí mismas. En el guion, se menciona que las mujeres se ven constantemente reflejadas en miradas que actúan como espejos, recordándoles su apariencia o cómo deberían ser. Esta mirada es un elemento crítico en la vida de una mujer, ya que su éxito se mide en gran medida por cómo aparece ante los demás, especialmente ante los hombres.

💡reflejo

El 'reflejo' es utilizado para describir cómo las mujeres ven su imagen en los ojos de los demás y cómo esto las lleva a juzgarse a sí mismas. En el guion, se sugiere que detrás de cada mirada hay un juicio, y a veces, el espejo que encuentran es el de su propia imagen, reflejada desde un espejo real. Esto se relaciona con la idea de que las mujeres están en constante autoevaluación de su apariencia.

💡nudez

La 'nudez' en el contexto del video se refiere a la representación de mujeres desnudas en el arte, particularmente en la pintura europea. Se discute cómo la desnudez en el arte no es simplemente estar sin ropa, sino estar desnuda delante de los ojos de otros, sin ser reconocida por uno mismo. Esto se relaciona con la objetivación de la mujer y cómo se convierte en un objeto de deseo y juicio, en lugar de ser vista como una entidad con su propia identidad y emociones.

💡juicio

El 'juicio' es un concepto central en el guion, ya que se refiere a cómo las mujeres son evaluadas y valoradas por su apariencia. Se menciona que detrás de cada mirada está un juicio, y que esta evaluación es crucial para el éxito percibido de la vida de una mujer. El juicio también se refleja en la forma en que las mujeres son representadas en la pintura, donde su desnudez es un medio para ser juzgadas por su atractivo.

💡identidad

La 'identidad' se relaciona con cómo las mujeres ven y se ven a sí mismas en relación con las expectativas y los roles impuestos por la sociedad. El guion sugiere que las mujeres están en constante búsqueda de su identidad a través de la percepción de los demás, especialmente de los hombres. Esto se ve reflejado en la forma en que se presentan y en cómo se ven a sí mismas en el espejo, comparándose con las idealizaciones del arte y la cultura.

💡espejo

El 'espejo' simboliza la vanidad de las mujeres, según el guion, y cómo se ven a sí mismas a través de la mirada de los demás. Se menciona que las mujeres son enseñadas y persuadidas para examinarse a sí mismas constantemente, y el espejo se convierte en una herramienta para ver cómo los hombres las ven. Esto se relaciona con la idea de que las mujeres están en una posición pasiva, esperando ser vistas y juzgadas por los demás.

💡competencia

La 'competencia' se refiere a cómo la belleza y la atracción se convierten en una cuestión de rivalidad entre las mujeres, según se describe en el guion. Se menciona el Juicio de Páris como un ejemplo de cómo las mujeres son evaluadas y comparadas por su apariencia, lo que lleva a una competencia por ser la más hermosa y, por ende, la más deseada.

💡disfraz

El 'disfraz' se utiliza para describir la forma en que las mujeres se presentan ante el mundo, como si estuvieran siempre vistiendo un uniforme que refleje un rol o una identidad específica. En el guion, se sugiere que la desnudez en la pintura es otro tipo de 'disfraz', una forma de vestir la identidad que se espera que tengan las mujeres como objetos de deseo para los espectadores masculinos.

💡pasividad

La 'pasividad' se refiere a la forma en que las mujeres son representadas en el arte y en la sociedad, esperando ser vistas y valoradas por los demás en lugar de tomar una postura activa y autodefinirse. El guion discute cómo esta pasividad se refleja en la forma en que las mujeres son pintadas, generalmente presentadas de manera languidez y sin energía, en contraste con la idea de que deberían tener un apetito y una pasión propias.

💡narcisismo

El 'narcisismo' se discute en el guion como una forma de autoapreciación que puede ser tanto positiva como negativa, dependiendo de cómo se relaciona con la identidad y la interacción con el mundo. Se sugiere que las mujeres pueden ser más narcisistas que los hombres, ya que su imagen de sí mismas está más influenciada por la percepción de los demás, mientras que los hombres pueden desarrollar una imagen de sí mismos basada en su interacción con el mundo y sus logros.

Highlights

Men dream of women, and women dream of themselves being dreamed of.

Women constantly meet glances which act like mirrors, reminding them of how they look or how they should look.

Behind every glance is a judgment, sometimes the glass they meet is their own, reflected back from a real mirror.

A woman in the culture of privileged Europeans is first and foremost a sight to be looked at.

To be naked is to be oneself; to be nude is to be seen naked by others, and yet not recognized for oneself.

In the nudes of European painting, we can discover some of the criteria and conventions by which women were judged.

The story of Adam and Eve illustrates the creation of nakedness in the mind of the beholder and the woman's subsequent punishment and subordination.

In medieval art, the story of Adam and Eve is often illustrated, emphasizing the moment of shame in relation to the spectator.

The Judgment of Paris, a favorite mythological subject, involves men looking at and judging naked women, transforming beauty into a competitive concept.

The mirror in paintings became a symbol of the vanity of women, yet the male hypocrisy is blatant as they depict women's nakedness for their pleasure.

Most nudes in oil paintings have been lined up for the pleasure of the male spectator, their nudity serving as another form of dress.

In European art, women are seldom shown dancing; they are there to feed an appetite, not to have any of their own.

The nude in European oil painting is usually presented as an ideal subject, said to express the European humanist spirit.

The program raises questions about how men see women or have seen them in the past and how this influences the way women see themselves today.

The image that women compare themselves with is often derived from photographs and advertising, rather than classical European paintings.

Nudity in paintings is seen as a uniform, representing readiness for sexual pleasure, rather than freedom or self-expression.

The concept of availability implies passivity, as women wait for someone else to act, contrasting with the active engagement with the world.

Narcissism is discussed as a phenomenon that affects both men and women differently, with women's image of themselves often derived from others' views.

The film suggests that women have been conditioned to see themselves as objects of beauty and desire, as portrayed in art and advertising.

One woman describes her realization that she always poses when looking in the mirror, influenced by the cultural ideal of the female form.

The discussion concludes with a reflection on the importance of self-delight and the need for women to have a sense of identity beyond how they are perceived by others.

Transcripts

men dream of women women dream of

themselves being dreamed of

men look at women

watch themselves being looked at

[Music]

women constantly meet glances which act

like mirrors reminding them of how they

look or how they should look

behind every glance is a judgment

sometimes the glass they meet is their

own

reflected back from a real mirror

[Music]

foreign

[Music]

[Music]

is always accompanied except when quite

alone perhaps even then by her own image

of herself

while she is walking across a room or

Weeping at the death of her father she

cannot avoid envisaging herself walking

or weeping from earlier's childhood she

is taught and persuaded to survey

herself continually

she has to survey everything she is and

everything she does because how she

appears to others and particularly how

she appears to men

is of crucial importance

for what is normally thought of as the

success of her life

[Music]

[Music]

a woman in the culture of privileged

Europeans is first and foremost a sight

to be looked at

what kind of sight is revealed in the

average European oil painting

the reporters of women as the reporters

of men but in one category of painting

women with a principal ever occurring

subject

that category was the nude

in the nudes of European painting we can

discover some of the criteria and

conventions by which women were judged

we can see how women were seen

Portland is a nude

in his book on the nude Kenneth Clark

says that being naked is simply being

without clothes

the nude according to him

is a form of Art

I will put it differently

to be naked is to be oneself

to be nude is to be seen naked by others

and yet not recognized for oneself

a nude has to be seen as an object in

order to be a nude

in the European oil painting nakedness

is not taken for granted as in archaic

art

nakedness is a sight for those who are

dressed that is why Mana is painting

which really marks the end of the period

I'm considering is so profound the

comment on all the works which preceded

it

The Story begins with the story of Adam

and Eve As Told in Genesis

and when the woman saw that the tree was

good for food and it was a delight to

the eyes and that the tree was to be

desired to make one wise she took of the

fruit thereof and did eat and she gave

also unto her husband with her and he

did eat

and the eyes of them both were opened

and they knew that they were naked

and the Lord God called unto the man and

said unto him where art thou

and he said I heard thy voice in the

garden and I was afraid because I was

naked and I hid myself

unto the woman God said I will greatly

multiply thy sorrow and thy conception

in sorrow Thou shalt bring forth

children and thy desire shall be to thy

husband and he shall rule over thee

things are striking about this story

they become aware of being naked because

as a result of eating the Apple each

sees the other differently nakedness is

created in the mind of the beholder

the second striking fact

is that the woman is blamed and is

punished by being made subservient to

the man

in relation to the woman the man becomes

the agent of God

in medieval art the story is often

Illustrated seen following seen as in a

strip cartoon

during the Renaissance The Narrative

sequence disappears and the single

moment which is NATO always depicted is

the moment of Shame

the couple wear fig leaves or make a

modest gesture with their hands

but now their shame is not so much in

relation to one another as to The

Spectator it is the spectators looking

which shames them

later as painting became more secular

many other subjects offered the

opportunity of painting nudes

but always in the European tradition the

nude implies an awareness of being seen

by The Spectator

they are not naked as they are

they are naked as you see them

often as with the favorite subject of

Susanna and the elders this is the

actual theme of the picture we join the

elders to spy on her

she looks back at us looking at her

sometimes the woman Susanna looks at

herself in a mirror

picture into herself how men see her

she sees herself first and foremost as a

sight

which means a sight for men

thus the mirror became a symbol of the

vanity of women

yet the male hypocrisy in this is

blatant

you paint a naked woman because you

enjoy looking at her

you put a mirror in her hand

and you call the painting vanity

thus morally condemning the woman whose

nakedness you have depicted for your own

pleasure

and thus incidentally repeating the

biblical example by blaming the woman

the Judgment of Paris was another

favorite mythological subject with the

same inwritten idea of men looking at

naked women and judging them

Paris Awards the Apple to the woman he

finds most beautiful

Beauty in this context is bound to

become competitive

the Judgment of Paris is transformed

into the beauty contest

Aesthetics when applied to women are not

as disinterested as the word beauty

might suggest

I don't want to deny the crucial part

that seeing plays in sexuality but

there's a great difference between being

seen as oneself naked or seeing another

in that way and a body being put on

display

to be naked

is to be without disguise

to be on display is to have the surface

of one's own skin the hairs of One's Own

body

turned into a disguise a disguise which

cannot be discarded

amongst the tens of thousands of

European oil paintings of nudes

there are perhaps 20 or 30 exceptions

paintings in which the artist has seen

the woman revealed as herself

this Rubens

this Rembrandt

this Georges De La Tour

these paintings are as personal as love

poems and their character is quite

distinctive

most nudes in oil paintings have been

lined up by their painters for the

pleasure of the male spectator owner who

will assess and judge them as sites

their nudity is another form of dress

they are condemned to never being naked

with their clothes off they are as

formal as with their clothes on

those who are not judged beautiful are

not beautiful

those who are are given the prize

the prize is to be owned that is to say

to be available

Charles II commissioned this secret

painting from laylee it's like hundreds

of others it might be Venus and Cupid

but in fact it was a portrait of one of

his mistresses nelgwin

it shows how passively looking at The

Spectator staring at her naked

her nakedness is not an expression of

her own feelings it is only a sign of

her submission to his demand

the painting when he shows it to others

demonstrates the submission his guests

envy him

by contrast in another tradition

nakedness is a celebration of active

sexual love as between two people the

woman as active as the man

the actions of each absorb the other

in oil painting the second person or the

second person who matters is the

stranger looking at the picture

compare the expression of these two

women

run the model for what is considered a

masterpiece by Aang and the other an ill

paid model for a photograph in a girly

magazine

obvious two

just the expression look

what do you see

it seems to me that in each pair the

expression is remarkably similar

and it is an expression of responding

with calculated charm to the man whom

she knows is looking at her although she

doesn't know him

it is true that sometimes a painting

includes a male lover

but the woman's attention is very rarely

directed towards him she looks away from

him or she looks out of the picture

towards he who considers himself her

true lover

The Spectator owner

this painting was sent as a present from

the Grand Duke of Florence to the king

of France

the boy kneeling on the cushion and

kissing the woman is Cupid she's Venus

but the way her body is arranged has

nothing to do with that kissing

her body is arranged in the way it is to

display it to the man looking at the

picture

the picture is made to appeal to his

sexuality it has nothing to do with her

sexuality

the convention of not painting the hair

on a woman's body helps towards the same

end hair is associated with sexual power

with passion

the woman's sex or passion needs to be

minimized so that the spectator may feel

that he has the Monopoly of such passion

there were paintings which depicted male

lovers since they exist but they were

mostly private semi-pornographic

pictures

in most paintings which were painted to

be seen rather than hidden

the only rival to the male spectator is

a Cupid

how extraordinary it is that the

pictorial symbol of passion was a small

boy

for a similar reason women in the

European art of the oil painting are

seldom shown dancing they have to be

shown languid exhibiting a minimum of

energy

they are there to feed an appetite not

to have any of their own

appetite was theoretically

gargantuan

the absurdity of this male flattery

although it was not seen as absurd then

reached its peak in the public academic

art of the 19th century

Prime Ministers discussed under

paintings like this when one of them

felt he had been outwitted

he looked up for consolation

the nude in European oil painting is

usually presented as an ideal subject

it is said to be an expression of the

European humanist spirit

and reject entirely the truth of this

but I've tried to add to it starting off

from a different viewpoint

Dura who believed in the ideal nude

thought that this ideal could be

constructed by taking the shoulders of

one body the hands of another the

breasts of another and so on

was this humanist idealism

or was it the result of an indifference

to who any one person really was

do these paintings celebrate as we're

normally taught The Women Within them or

the male warrior

is there sexuality within the frame

or in front of it

I showed the program as you have seen it

up till now to five women

it began to seem absurd that the only

images you were seeing were of women

silent mute so I showed it to them and

asked them to comment to comment not so

much on the program but rather on the

questions raised by it

above all on the question of how men see

women or have seen them in the past

and how this influences the way women

see themselves today we have an image of

course we all have an image of ourselves

and it's a visual image

but I wonder how much this sort of

classical European painting has shaped

that image in my own case I find it

quite impossible when I look at the

paint institution in your film

I can't take them seriously I cannot

identify with them because they are so

immensely exaggerated always you know

they fasten on to some secondary sexual

characteristics or at least enormous

breath some sort of great big bee sting

bottoms you know and those huge things

like that and they just aren't real

whereas with photographs

um you can you can feel that is

potentially that's possibly Me overall

you know it probably isn't but these

these nearly all the paintings you have

shown

um are what is called idealized

um and therefore they are to me very

unreal in connection with with any deep

down image that I might have of myself

and in connection with any deep down

pleasure that I might have in looking at

another female body they don't give me

that kind of pleasure at all

can admire them as painting but they are

they they don't mean human beings to me

um the image that I compare myself with

is the photograph because it's with

photographs that I've been encouraged to

think of myself in this way it is

essentially advertising for me that's

contributed to this and consequently I

find it extremely interesting to go back

and think of nudes in this way because

I've never done so but having seen the

film I have no doubt that the same thing

applies

and do you find the nudes in painting in

the same way you yes

well you can't get any information from

it can you it's no guide towards the

future information is lacking oh well

activity you know dynamism anything

it is how someone sees you and that's

all it's something laid upon you

I'm glad you showed them any picture

because I always find this

extremely shocking you know because the

men are dressed and the women are naked

and this seems to me sum up the whole

situation it's a humiliating position

and these women are well being

humiliated

um and I think this is part of the whole

scheme of things I mean I think most

people have had at some station and I've

nightmares about running through the

streets with nothing on and everybody

else's words and it seems to me one

element in the pictures

um very interesting thing you said in

the film was about

um how nudity was really a kind of

Disguise it wasn't the real person

themselves and free

but it was just another garment they

were wearing and worse than a garment in

the sense because it was something that

you can't take off this comes I think

from nudity being combined with a pose

and that's inevitable if you're going to

have a painting of a model

um

in a way

I think that we're always dressing we're

always dressing up for a part

always uh putting on a uniform of one

kind or another and I think women do

this almost more than men men have only

begun doing it fairly recently women are

always dressing

to show the kind of character that they

want to to represent the mother the

working woman the pretty young chick and

nudity is a uniform

in a way for I'm ready now for sexual

pleasure you see and so it doesn't you

you you can't com you can't identify

being nude with being free I've only

just recently read that book is

which describes um the way in which a

woman is reduced for the sex and

pleasure of the man she's in love with

to a complete object and what struck me

in all that book as the most impressive

image was the fact that she was told

that she was never to touch her own

breasts to entirely close her Mark or to

close or to put her legs together and so

the whole point about her stance all the

time was that she was available

and this the sense of being available

the sense of waiting for other people is

the very antithesis of action

and it you know just like the whole the

Brook Street Bureau advertisement Tony

hasn't run you know he's three minutes

late and ringing and you feel this whole

situation the number of women you've

talked to who say I stay in so many

nights a week waiting for somebody to

ring you know that the the concept of

availability implies passivity because

if you're simply waiting for somebody

else to act then you contact yourself

yes it's it's like

um you will awake when a man Taps you

you know when a man kisses you you will

arise and gets off your bed but um

really it's an excuse to get yourself

going I think doing it too shy

they're waiting too long

yes yes could I say something about

narcissism I think that both men and

women are narcissistic but in different

senses

and I think that one in sometimes I I

have the impression that men and women

are tremendously narcissistic and cut

off from each other by their images

themselves but that whereas a woman's

image of herself is derived directly

from other people the mirror you're

talking about a man's image of himself

is derived from the world that is it's

the world that gives him back His Image

because he acts in it and

you know women are drawn to him as a

source as a central activity and as a

source of work I mean since he is in the

world the fact that he values her is

important

um and so because they're sort of

centers of narcissism are different and

the women's is essentially only related

to the other person she's in a much more

passive position than he is in relation

to it yes

do you see do you see narcissism as

essentially a a negative or

positive

phenomenon well

I think that's very difficult to answer

but in the sense that it is related to

Identity

um it's a positive phenomenon and it

seems to me that what women envy and Men

A lot of the time is that they have a

sense of their identity but there is

something in them which is important to

them other than simply what other people

think of them and I think that that

thing

is the product of their interaction with

the world that is other things and other

people and it's sort of it's almost as

if through this interaction they

actually build up a store of worth a

sense of themselves

um which which is a constant I mean it

can't be lost but that because the woman

doesn't go out and act she doesn't

create the store

she waits only for the present

interaction with a man that and that can

go that can just end at any moment

there's something you know really I'd

like to to Chris around a little bit

because narcissism is a very sort of

pronounced way of stating a relationship

throughout whether it's a man or woman

isn't it but

um this other question which is

contained within it

doesn't go as far as it as an idea

is this sort of self-delight of a person

whether it's a man or a woman

in life and what they're doing in their

relationships with men or women

and it's a thing that matters

tremendously

and it's not only a kind of inner Thing

by which you live

but it's a really outer Thing

by which you gain relationships with

your own context in the world that you

can't game any other way that it's when

you have somehow been made so

unconscious of yourself

that you'll easily naturally sort of

compulsively go out

do whatever is going on around you now

we're not a child that thins more than

with people to be other things doesn't

it

mountains streams wherever you go

um uh and then only gradually

and go on

to make this kind of

absolutely necessary contact with people

but I do think that

the sort of essence of self-delight as a

kind of possible thing in the modern

world and something that sure women have

than men and want and must have

they

they are the compulsion not the person

the propulsion

make contact with the world as you are

living in it and when I say that I don't

just mean the people next door or your

friends I simply mean what is going on

well I don't know for sure about the

Delight I think it's a really

double-edged thing

um I know as I suppose I've always known

but I became aware of it in this film I

have never consciously looked at myself

in the mirror and seen myself as I am I

always see the image that I want I know

and my children notice it but if I make

up my face I put on a certain expression

if I from adolescence on if I see myself

naked in the mirror I have not thought

of myself naked I have thought of myself

as a nude and I think this comes very

largely from having been trailed around

all the major art galleries no lessons

you know this is culture this is beauty

the castle B

um of course up to a point I'm

advertising too but much more um the

painting thing

um that you you think the female body is

beautiful I am a beautiful object if not

I have to do something about it

um and therefore the painful part of the

narcissistic thing is I think the

feeling of inadequacy

um now this business of always posing in

a mirror I think one does absolutely

automatically and the result is that if

you actually catch yourself in a mirror

um by chance that's not deliberately

because you're getting dressed or

something or had a bath but because

there's one in the street or you catch

yourself in a shop window it's a

tremendous shot because you'll suddenly

see yourself as you are which is wind

blown untidy badly dressed tired and so

on you don't see the pose at all and I

think this is what happens to women that

they're always trying to measure up to

this erotic image that is projected

that there are some paintings and I

think at this moment in particular of

one painting where there's a woman who

is wearing a garment she's not nude but

it is a garment so loose so comfortable

so easy

and it's my idea very much

um of

what a picture of a woman might be like

it I think it's actually before your

period almost it's so long ago I mean

it's by laurenzetti it comes in the good

and bad government it's a fresco it's a

very very old you know and it is a

picture of a woman who is supposed to

represent peace it's quite extraordinary

but she could be one of the liberators

or trying to deliberate as young women

today she is at ease she is relaxed she

is not playing any part at all she is

able to combine pleasure with thought

and with dreaming

and she's she might spring into action

at any moment

and I for me

she she has much much more to do with

with with nakedness with oneself

with the truth about oneself and any

number of nudes that I've ever seen

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thank you

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