"This is NOT The Way To Defeat Hamas" Piers Morgan vs Mehdi Hasan
Summary
TLDRThe transcript presents a detailed conversation focused on complex international relations, particularly addressing Israel's actions against Hamas, political leadership responsibilities, and the impacts of these actions on global perceptions. It explores criticisms and defenses of various responses to terrorism and political strategies, incorporating discussions on media representation, political accountability, and the broader implications of military and political decisions. The dialogue navigates through the nuanced viewpoints on combating terrorism, the ethical considerations in military retaliation, and the role of media in shaping public discourse around these contentious issues.
Takeaways
- 💬 Mehdi Hasan expresses strong opposition to Israel's military actions against Palestinians, arguing they are disproportionate and fail to address the root causes of conflict.
- 🔥 The dialogue touches on the challenges of defeating Hamas and explores the idea that Israel's approach may exacerbate rather than resolve the situation.
- 🚨 Hasan criticizes the framing of questions around Israel and Hamas, suggesting it reflects a lack of understanding of the complexities of the conflict.
- 🚫 The discussion includes a critique of the U.S. response to the Israel-Hamas conflict, with a particular focus on President Biden's policies and their impact.
- 💡 There's a debate over the use of the term 'terrorist,' with Hasan arguing for consistency in its application to both Israeli and Palestinian actions.
- 📌 The conversation explores the role of media and public figures in shaping perceptions of the Israel-Hamas conflict, including criticisms of MSNBC's handling of Mehdi Hasan.
- 📈 The script delves into broader issues of politics and policy, including critiques of the Trump administration and discussions on the domestic achievements of the Biden administration.
- 🔴 Hasan and the interviewer engage in a heated debate about the implications of woke culture, censorship, and the dynamics of political and social discourse in the U.S.
- 📝 The script touches on controversies around critical race theory and transgender rights, reflecting broader cultural and political debates.
- 👨💻 Mehdi Hasan outlines his reasons for leaving MSNBC and discusses the launch of his new media venture, highlighting his commitment to speaking freely on contentious issues.
Q & A
What was the interviewer's initial question about handling the situation as the Prime Minister of Israel after a specific atrocity?
-The interviewer asked the guest to imagine being the Prime Minister of Israel and questioned how they would respond to the atrocity, suggesting the challenge of addressing such a situation.
How did the interviewee respond to the suggestion that Israel's actions were necessary to defeat Hamas?
-The interviewee rejected the premise that Israel's blunt and brutal methods were the only way to defeat Hamas, indicating disagreement with the approach suggested.
What was Med Hasan's stance on Israel's military response to an act of terrorism?
-Med Hasan clarified that he does not consider Israel to be terrorists, explaining that their response, although massive, was to an act of terrorism that demanded significant military action.
Why did Med Hasan believe the Prime Minister of Israel should resign?
-He believed the Prime Minister should resign due to responsibility for botched security, support for Hamas through financial means, and failure to address internal issues leading to public protests.
What was Med Hasan's critique of the scale of Israel's response to Hamas?
-Med Hasan criticized the scale of Israel's response, questioning the necessity and morality of the extensive casualties, especially among children, and comparing the situation to historical atrocities.
What is Med Hasan's view on defeating Hamas?
-He believes defeating Hamas requires a strategy different from Israel's current approach, suggesting that military action alone, especially when it targets civilians, is not an effective solution.
How did Med Hasan describe the nature of Hamas as a challenge to Israel?
-He described Hamas as a symptom of broader issues rather than the core problem, indicating that eliminating Hamas without addressing underlying issues would only lead to similar groups emerging.
What criticism did Med Hasan have for the way the media and certain individuals label Hamas?
-He criticized the selective use of the term 'terrorist,' arguing for consistency in its application to all parties that commit violence against civilians for political purposes, including actions by Israeli forces.
Why did Med Hasan believe the Israeli government's strategy is not solely focused on defeating Hamas?
-Med Hasan suggested that Israel's actions, which he described as genocidal, aimed at erasing the population in Gaza and taking back control, rather than just defeating Hamas.
What was Med Hasan's assessment of Joe Biden's presidency in terms of domestic policy and foreign policy, especially regarding Israel and Gaza?
-He praised Biden's domestic policy as impressive but criticized his foreign policy for supporting Israel's actions in Gaza, which Hasan saw as enabling genocide, calling it a moral failure.
Outlines
🗣️ Political Perspectives on Israeli Actions and Media Influence
This paragraph features a scripted dialogue focused on the conflict between Israel and Hamas, exploring various viewpoints on Israel's actions, the role of the media, and the implications of these actions on both the political and social landscapes. The conversation critiques the blunt approach of Israel's military actions, challenges the premise of defeating Hamas through such means, and discusses the media's portrayal and influence on public perception. It highlights the complexity of responses to terrorism, the importance of strategic and moral leadership, and the controversial aspects of media coverage and political discourse surrounding these issues.
🤔 Reflecting on the Morality and Strategy in Conflict Response
This paragraph delves into the moral and strategic considerations of responding to provocations in the Israel-Palestine conflict. It draws parallels with historical events like 9/11 and the invasion of Afghanistan, questioning the efficacy and morality of large-scale military retaliation. The dialogue criticizes the notion that brute force is the only way to address terrorist acts, suggesting that such approaches may not only fail to solve the underlying issues but also exacerbate them by creating more victims and further entrenching adversarial ideologies.
🏛️ Questioning the Intentions and Strategies of Israeli Policy
The conversation shifts to scrutinizing the intentions behind Israel's military strategies and the possibility of alternative responses. It challenges the view that Israel's actions are solely aimed at defeating Hamas, suggesting instead that they may be aimed at broader objectives such as territorial control or population displacement. The dialogue also touches on the international and domestic implications of these actions, including the political dynamics within Israel and the broader Middle Eastern context. It questions the ethical considerations and long-term consequences of such strategies, emphasizing the importance of understanding the root causes of the conflict.
🌍 International Reactions and the Moral Quandaries of Warfare
This section explores the international reaction to the Israel-Hamas conflict, particularly focusing on the moral quandaries posed by the high civilian casualty rates. The dialogue examines the difficulties of combating embedded militant groups without causing extensive harm to civilians, especially in densely populated areas. It critically analyzes the premise that certain militant actions justify extensive military responses, discussing the broader implications for international law, human rights, and global perceptions of justice and morality in conflict situations.
💡 Media Influence and Political Accountability in the Israel-Hamas Conflict
The dialogue addresses the influence of media coverage on public perception of the Israel-Hamas conflict, discussing the roles of journalists, commentators, and broadcasters in shaping narratives. It highlights the importance of accountability, both in political leadership and media reporting, questioning the effectiveness and morality of Israel's military strategy. The conversation also touches on the potential biases in media coverage and the challenges of maintaining journalistic integrity and objectivity in highly polarized environments.
🎤 The Power of Public Figures in Shaping Discourse on Conflict
This paragraph focuses on the impact of public figures and celebrities in shaping discourse on the Israel-Hamas conflict. It examines the reactions to statements made during award ceremonies and on social media, discussing the implications of such comments for public perception and political debate. The dialogue also considers the role of the entertainment industry in addressing or ignoring global conflicts, highlighting the tension between advocacy, censorship, and the commercial interests of media and entertainment platforms.
📺 Exploring Media Censorship and Career Implications for Journalists
The discussion explores the challenges faced by journalists and broadcasters in covering the Israel-Hamas conflict, particularly in relation to media censorship and career implications. It touches on the experiences of individuals who have faced professional consequences for their coverage or commentary on the conflict, discussing the balance between editorial independence, political pressures, and the commercial interests of media organizations. The conversation reflects on the importance of diverse perspectives in media coverage and the role of journalists in holding power to account.
🔍 The Intersection of Sports, Culture, and Politics in Public Discourse
This final paragraph debates the intersection of sports, culture, and politics in public discourse, particularly focusing on issues of identity, rights, and representation. It examines the controversies surrounding transgender athletes in sports, the censorship of educational materials, and the politicization of cultural and social issues. The dialogue challenges the framing of these debates by media outlets and political figures, emphasizing the need for nuanced discussion and the importance of recognizing the rights and experiences of marginalized communities.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Hamas
💡Israel
💡genocide
💡terrorism
💡MSNBC
💡media freedom
💡critical race theory
💡Joe Biden
💡fascism
💡woke left
Highlights
Med Hasan argues against the premise that Israel's methods are the only way to defeat Hamas, suggesting a nuanced understanding of the conflict.
Hasan suggests resigning as a responsible act for the Prime Minister of Israel in a hypothetical scenario, emphasizing accountability.
The discussion touches on Netanyahu's strategies and public opinion in Israel regarding his leadership and actions against Hamas.
Piers Morgan and Med Hasan discuss the moral quandaries and the scale of Israel's response to Hamas' actions.
Hasan points out the problematic approach of addressing Hamas as the root problem rather than a symptom of broader issues.
The conversation explores the complex dynamics of labeling groups or actions as terrorist, with Hasan criticizing a double standard in questioning.
Hasan addresses his departure from MSNBC, shedding light on media dynamics and his move towards independent journalism.
The discussion includes critical perspectives on Joe Biden's presidency, particularly his handling of foreign policy and domestic achievements.
Hasan and Morgan debate the implications of Biden's response to the Israel-Hamas conflict and the broader impact on his presidency.
The conversation shifts to cultural and political polarization in the U.S., with a focus on the woke movement and free speech issues.
Hasan challenges Morgan's framing of the woke left as the main source of cultural controversy, advocating for a broader understanding of censorship.
The debate touches on transgender rights and sports, highlighting the complexity of navigating fair competition and inclusivity.
Hasan and Morgan discuss the political and social implications of book banning and critical race theory in American education.
The dialogue reflects on the nature of fascism and the use of the term in political discourse, especially in relation to actions by the woke left and Donald Trump.
The interview concludes with reflections on the challenges of media representation and the need for nuanced debate on contentious issues.
Transcripts
I want you to imagine that you are the
prime minister of Israel when that
atrocity happens what do you do that's a
great question how else do you get rid
of Hamas if you don't go about it in the
blunt brutal manner that Israel is doing
I don't accept the premise of your
question that this is the way to defeat
Hamas I think your questions reflect a
little bit of a naivity about what
Israel is doing here people do ask me do
you think Israel are terrorists and I've
said no but I have repeated well I have
repeated because I think they interest
why because they were responding to an
act of terrorism so heinous it demanded
a massive military response no Med it's
not your show it's mine when is when did
Israel kill what we need to have is hang
on when did Israel kill 1200 of
Palestinian civilian were you fired by
MSNBC because of what you
said well M Assan is a broadcaster with
a big bite his MSNBC show as a L
cancelled the end of last year but not
before his criticism of Israel's war in
Gaza had sparked plaudits and protests
around the world he's best known for his
tongue lashing monologues and probing
interviews which have made him a big hit
online there also people your government
has killed you accept that right you've
killed children or do you deny that no I
do not I do not de yes you did this is
awkward for you because you did I've got
the tax returns in front of my face the
former president of the United States
today threatened America's Jews do you
believe that if elections are held on
time in October of this year that your
besieged party can still win and that
you can still be prime minister again
surely that's a pipe dream now I think
it was not C of Communism no so when KL
marks was talking about religion being
the opiate of the masses that was just a
throwaway
line look people look at
me and the president can be a liar
there's no contradiction between those
two statements well now's joined the US
Guardian using his first column to call
Israel's offensive a genocide also
started his own media company it's a Teo
news is New York Times bestseller win
every argument was notably written
before he'd appeared on this show and
now Med Hasan is uncensored medy how are
you I'm good thank you for that
introduction P we' we've had a few
ding-dongs on uh on X formerly Twitter
over the years uh recently I've noticed
a patent where you've started a few
tweets saying I hate to admit this but I
agree with Pierce
Morgan
yeah you've said some sensible things
about the conflict in the Middle East
you've said some sensible things about
islamophobia I feel like you've matured
over the
years uh I've been following what's
happened with you with great interest
and as somebody who was at CNN and left
left there pretty abruptly myself a few
years ago after a series of very Lively
debates with members of the NRA about
gun rights in America you know I could
see what happened with you and we'll
come to that a little later but first of
all how are you enjoying the freedom of
your new
life very much so um I'm someone as you
said who likes to speak out I'm known
for speaking very freely and look it's
great to have your own Enterprise start
your own Media company I'm 44 years old
I've worked for the BBC for sky for alaz
English for NBC for huff post and it's
good to actually be my own boss for a
little while and to be able to
especially at a time perers when the
world is going through so much you have
the the war in Gaza you have an election
in the US you have the rise of fascism
globally there a lot I want to speak
about both online and in my shows and in
my writing and you know it is good to be
uncensored including on this show it
certainly is it's great to have you um
let me just take you back to October the
7th I want you to imagine and it's a bit
of a leap I I admit but I want you to
imagine that you are the prime minister
of Israel when that atrocity happens in
Israel what do you do
that's a great question so short answer
is I resign because I'm the responsible
for that attack I'm the one who botched
security at the border I'm the one who
propped up Hamas with money from Qatar
over the years and allowed them to be
propped up as a way to divide the
Palestinian people I'm the one who's had
millions of my own people on the streets
for months protesting against my
authoritarian reforms to Judiciary so I
have some shame I have some self-respect
I have some honesty and I say I quit let
someone else do this because I have
failed for 20 years okay Netanyahu did
not do that and interestingly although
the majority of Israelis would like him
to go they also want him to finish the
job in destroying Hamas there there's
not much ambiguity in terms of how
Israelis feel about the mission plan um
but there's obviously a lot of concern
mounting around the world about the
scale of Israel's response and that's
really what I I guess my my question was
alluding to I'll be honest I've said
this a lot on my on my un sensed show
that I felt a real moral quandry you
know I can go back over tweets I've done
back in 2014 where I said that Israel's
response to uh provocation by uh
Palestinians at the time was bordering
on terrorism you know I have somebody
who when I was editor of Daily Mirror
opposed the Iraq War before during and
after very viciously and I think that
aged pretty well that campaign um I'm
somebody that when the Qatar World Cup
happened you know I sprank to defense of
qatar's right to host the World Cup and
Expos a lot of Western hypocrisy And yet
when it comes to this particular
conflict I I feel genuinely conflicted
for one of a better phrase and and the
point of my conflict is this really is
that the reason I asked you that
question about if you were the prime
minister of Israel it's very very
difficult to know how any prime minister
of Israel could have responded in a
particularly different manner to the way
that Netanyahu did putting aside all the
reasons that you say he should have
resigned and by the way I broadly agree
with them um in terms of the Israel
people the prime minister at the time
the response to what happened that day
was going to always have to be enormous
wasn't it so you're right in terms of
the emotional response it was going to
be enormous and I would take us back to
911 P you mentioned Iraq after 911 there
was an emotional response in the US that
something had to be done right there's
you know there's the famous Yes Minister
dialogue something has to be done this
is something let's do it and we invaded
Afghanistan which didn't solve the
problem of terrorism made it worse
punished innocent people who had nothing
to do with 911 and you'll remember at
the time pce both parties in the United
States supported going into Afghanistan
only one member of Congress not Bernie
Sanders Barbara Lee of California voted
to oppose that war two decades on many
people would say she was Vindicated even
though she was an isolated voice and she
was going against a tidal wave of
opinion from liberals and conservatives
said we have to do something and I get
that after an atrocity happens people
want to do something but the best
leaders the most strategic leaders the
most moral leaders are the ones who can
take a pause take a breath and say are
we going to make the situation Better or
Worse are we striking out strategically
or just for the sake of Vengeance and
revenge and you talk about Israeli Prime
Ministers having to do this look they
didn't have to do it on this level I
think a lot of Israelis despite
supporting Netanyahu would argue it
didn't have to be done like this there
are different ways to retaliate against
Hamas the irony is no Israeli government
has done it like this before this is the
greatest death pole for Palestinians of
any war in Israel's post 1948 history so
the fact that he did it like this was
unique I mean look the statistics speak
for themselves P you know them you've
said them on this show the level of
killing the number of kids killed you
have one former un official saying this
is the highest kill rate in the world
since Rwanda right of any conflict since
Rwanda do not tell me that the only
response uh to a brutal attack on
civilians in Israel on October the 7th
was to produce a conflict that had a
kill rate equivalent to rwanda's sorry I
don't accept that here's what I would
say playing Devil's Advocate and you
might think I'm literally Playing
devil's advocate but I'm going to play
it anyway which is all that is true the
death toll is horrific the percentage of
children being killed is horrific but I
would say as a caveat to this that if
you think about it from the Israeli
perspective they've got 35,000 Hamas uh
terrorists and we'll come to whether you
think they're terrorists or not in a
moment but got 35,000 Hamas soldiers
Warriors terrorists whatever description
you want to call them depending on whose
side you're on and they are embedded
amongst a civilian population where half
that population is under
18 how else do you get rid of Hamas if
you don't go about it in the blunt
brutal manner that Israel is doing and
if you do it the way they're doing it
how do you avoid the kind of casualty
rate of people under 18 given that's
half the
population so three things very briefly
number one you do it by not deliberately
targeting civilian targets and schools
and hospitals and cemeteries and mosques
and universities and churches you don't
have snipers shooting at hospitals or
Christian women inside a church that's
how you avoid the casualties number two
I don't accept the premise of your
question that this is the way to defeat
Hamas I think even if I'm an Israeli
Hawk I criticize Netanyahu and say this
is not the way to defeat Hamas this is
actually absurd to think you can defeat
Hamas in this way we have countless
episodes from history that show us this
is not how you defeat a gorilla movement
of resistance movement a terror group as
you say whatever words you want to use
in fact you have Israeli General saying
this can't be done in this way and
number three look the reality is Hamas
is a symptom of the problem as long as
you treat Hamas as a problem rather than
as a symptom of the problem you're never
going to get rid of Hamas or if you do
by some fantasy means get rid of Hamas
you'll just get another version of Hamas
because now you've got tens of thousands
of Orphans you've got people who have
lost their kids their spouses their
siblings what you think they're not
going to fight back in the years to come
you you think they're not going to take
how absolute Madness to I feel I feel
the same way I we agree so yeah I think
broadly speaking I do because I think
you can't kill the ideology and in fact
all you will do is entrench the ideology
I think and that's what I don't think
Israel have thought through to a logical
end game which is you're not going to
get rid of the thinking that inspired
herass because a lot of people will have
suffered such apping grief with their
close
family descri they going get
revenge I think you're being a little
too generous to these is here and and
with the greatest respect I think your
questions reflect a little bit of a
naivity about what Israel is doing here
you're you're starting from the premise
that Israel is trying to defeat Hamas I
don't accept that premise I don't
believe that's what Israel is trying to
they wouldn't be doing it this way I
think they're trying to take back Gaza I
think they're trying to erase the
resistance in Gaza I think they're
trying to get rid of the people from
Gaza I think this is their you know
they've mowed the lawn as they put it in
previous Wars this time they're going
into erase the population you know you
know there's a plausible
genocide Justice if you listen if you
listen to Israeli officials as you know
it's laid out in the South African
petition they are very genocidal in
their approach to flattening and burning
down Gaza it's not about destroying
Hamas and if it was about destroying
Hamas why has Netanyahu and smotrich and
others talked about how Hamas is asset
to Israel why did they say that openly P
well he was clearly massively deluded I
think Netanyahu about having anything to
do with Hamas I think the netanyahu's
plan was quite straightforward which was
to separate Hamas from the Palestinian
Authority and create a split in the
Palestinians at an official level and he
thought that that was the best way of
preserving security for Israel he
couldn't have been more wrong I mean the
thing I do want to ask you you I I don't
think you've called Hamas terrorists in
fact you've gone out of your way to call
them Fighters do you still think that or
do you accept that what they did on
October the 7th was an act of terrorism
on a heena scale and therefore you have
to call them terrorists so you're wrong
uh uh p uh in my very first MSNBC
monologue after October 7th I refer to
what happened on October 7th as
terrorism in fact when I was 16 years
old I wrote a letter to The Independent
Newspaper condemning Hamas bus bombings
in the mid 1990s uh so you're wrong on
multiple levels I don't expect you to
know about my 16-year-old self but
clearly uh my MSNBC output is all is all
there for anyone to see so just to be
clear just to Bear to be clear you it
was an act of terrorism and Hamas are
terrorists that's your position I think
I think the Hamas fighters who went into
Israel and killed civilians and
kidnapped babies certainly I would call
them terrorists just as I call Israeli
soldiers who kidnap children and kill
children terrorists I use the terrorist
label more freely because otherwise it's
just a politicized empty phrase that we
just apply to our enemies what I would
say peers is that I find it a problem
and you you know this you've joked about
all the memes about you this obsession
with what we call Hamas which is a
question you pose let's be honest Piers
to most of your pro Palestinian Brown
guests you don't ask your Israeli or
Jewish your pro-israeli guests to
condemn Israeli terrorism or Israeli war
crimes at the start of an interview in
the way you do I've been I've been asked
directly whether I think Israel are
terrorists and I've said no so I don't
think they are I think they had a right
to defend themselves the question is the
scale that wasn't that wasn't the point
I made peers that wasn't the point I I
said when you have Israeli
guest let me finish my sentence no Med
it's not your show it's mine I wanted to
say that the whole interview by the way
so we got that other way that's a I'm
joking but the point I would make make
is I I think that I asked all the pro
Palestinian guests who've come on that
question quite quickly because I think
it it reveals a state of mind if like
you and I'm sorry I I didn't realize you
had in that first piece of number 7bc
done that so I I take back the
suggestion you hadn't and I'm glad that
you have that you have called them that
I don't think you can call them anything
else so the moment you have a pro
Palestinian guest who wants to avoid
calling what Hamas did an act of
terrorism by terrorists I think it's
very revealing about their mindset and I
think it's the wrong mindset here's my
problem with that why is that not
applied to your Israeli guests I would I
would be I would be fine peers if you
had Palestinian guests and You Begin by
asking them do you condemn Hamas war
crimes because what Hamas did on October
7th was a war crime but then you should
start with Israeli guests and
pro-israeli guest saying do you condemn
Israeli war crimes which have been
documented by the UN every Human Rights
group on the planet you don't you had
naftali Bennett the former Israeli Prime
Minister on a couple of weeks ago I
watched the interview your opening
question was how comfortable are you
with the way Israel is Prosecuting the
war bit of a soft to start with you
didn't ask him to condemn Israeli
terrorism Israeli war crimes Israeli
genocide in Gaza so a lot of people look
at that and they say I they get your
intention but it comes across as a bit
of a racist double standard well look I
don't think it's a racist double
standard and I think that nobody has
given Pro Palestinian voices a bigger
platform more consistently since October
the 7th than me uh and and if you go
back and look at those interviews you
know I think that Clips get taken out of
context and people assume they know what
I've said and often it's completely Mis
leading I've tried to be fair-minded
about it people do ask me do you think
Israel are terrorists and I've said no I
don't think they are but I have repeated
well I have repeated because I think
they interest why because they were
responding to an act of terrorism so
heinous it demanded a massive military
response the question for me that's
caused me a moral quander is what is an
acceptably proportionate level of
response and I don't know the answer but
I don't think you can call people
responding to an act of Terror on that
scale terrorists for responding what you
can do is hold them to account the
problem the problem if you go to Gaza if
you go to Gaza piers and you talk to
Palestinians they will say that Hamas
were responding if we play The Who
started it game we go back many decades
when when is kill what we need to have
is hang on when did Israel kill 1200
hundreds of Palestinian civilians when
did they kill 800 Palestinian civilians
in one few hour period right in the way
that Hamas killed those definition of
terrorism how many hours you do it in I
can mention many Israeli massacres going
back to Sabra and chatila which they
oversaw going back to Kia and Ariel
shiron going back to Dear Yen where rape
and violence happen the point is not to
compare atrocities the point PE is to
have a consistent moral principle which
is to say if you kill civilians for a
political cause you are a terrorist on
that basis Hamas have committed acts of
Terror and Israel have committed acts of
Terror I think that's only fair to say
that yeah listen you're perfectly
entitled to say it of course you are um
at the Oscars on Sunday Jonathan GL
laser uh won an award for best
International Film for the zone of
Interest a movie about uh the Holocaust
and uh he's a director he he said this
when he was on stage our film shows
where dehumanization leads at its worst
it shaped all of our past and
present right now we stand here as men
who refute their jewishness and the
Holocaust being hijacked by an
occupation which has led to Conflict for
so many innocent people whether the
victims of
October
whether the victims of October the 7th
in Israel or the ongoing attack on Gaza
all the victims of this
dehumanization how do we
resist now that that prompted a lot of
reaction as you'd imagine New York Post
columnist John podet said on X Jonathan
Glazer you can go bleep yourself and
stuff your Oscar up your bleep to which
you replied cry more Ben Shapiro wrot an
next in Jonathan glazers zone of
interest you don't see one Jew these are
the best Jews to Glazer The Faceless
victim screaming in a distance
ironically he's the villain picking up
awards from the bodies of these
Anonymous dead Jews while ignoring the
living ones getting slaughtered
slaughtered in the Gaza envelope by
genocidal murderers um listen you've
seen the way that that debate played out
interestingly to me before we get to
what Glazer said been really struck by
the fact that throughout the entire
Hollywood award season be it movies
television music
I don't think there's been a single
statement by a big star about the Israel
Hamas War which is pretty well
unprecedented for the biggest bunch of
virtu sigers in the world a what do you
read into that and and secondly on
Glazer speech was that the right time
and place to say it and what do you
think of the reaction from prominent
Jews to what he said well let's work
backwards uh yes it was the right time
to say it why not and I've been
depressed to see that the award ceremony
season has not seen anyone mention an
ongoing genocide in the Middle East in
which 12 a half thousand children
minimum have been killed in the space of
a few months so I'm happy he did it I
find the controversy to be uh
manufactured I find it deeply dishonest
you have people like Megan McCain uh and
others tweeting that he said he refutes
his jewishness just flat false I'm glad
you posted and played the whole clip
here because a lot of people have been
very sneaky in posting a portion of his
statement to make it sound like he was
refuting his own jewishness what he said
as you we all saw is he refutes his
jewishness being hijacked by the
occupation which is how a lot of Jewish
people a lot of young Jewish people
especially in the United States feel and
that's why so many of us who are critics
of Israel say let us disentangle the
political ideology of Zionism being
pushed in the occupied territories from
Judaism one of the world's great
religions which is not responsible for
the crimes of Benjamin Netanyahu or
bizal smotrich so I think he's been
completely smeared and I hope he sues
some of these people uh number two in
terms of
Hollywood for four years of trump
Hollywood celebrities spoke out against
fascism authoritarianism human rights
abuses at the border and now suddenly
they've all lost their voices which
tells you a great deal about how this
issue uh is so censored in the US to use
a phrase that you like uh it's not
uncensored we know that people in
Hollywood in the media in politics
elsewhere do feel a pressure not to
speak out on this do get worried about
losing career opportunities uh my good
friend Mark rfal was up for an Oscar I
was hoping he'd win because he's one of
those bold folks who does speak about
Gaza and Palestinians I know he would
have devoted his speech to it sadly he
lost to his fellow Marvel character
Robert Downey Jr but look it's a real
problem that in Hollywood there is so
much censorship at a time when people
talk about free speech and artists for
free speech and I'm glad Annie lenx
spoke out I'm glad Jonathan uh Glazer
spoke out I just wish more people were
were you fired by MSNBC cancelled by
them because of what you said about the
Israel Hamas War as many people think
you
were so just to clarify I was not fired
uh I chose to quit but after they cancel
my shows they did cancel my shows yes
and I was disappointed who wouldn't be
uh to lose my two shows uh you'd have to
ask them why they cancel the shows they
never said it was about Israel Palestine
people can speculate um I then decided
that look it's an election year I've got
a lot I want to say uh and I asked to
leave and they very graciously allowed
me to Exit my contract you know about
cable news contracts Piers but could it
the reason I'm ask you is it could you
have been a victim of the very thing
you're talking about which is a
censorship driven by big media companies
in America most of who whose tentacles
end up in
Hollywood I appreciate your questions
Pier but you're going to have to ask
MSNBC get them on and Grill them I might
do that um you also said about Joe Biden
that he was the most impressive
president of my lifetime that was in the
guardian uh a calendar year ago do you
stand by
that uh so quick quick bit of caveat
there I was asked by the interviewer not
yes Med you know how do you consider no
no I I will clarify at the time I was
asked is he the great I said he's the
best I'm surprised he's the most
impressive president of my lifetime and
then the next slide which is in the
piece was but then again who's he up
against Ronald Reagan George Bush Senior
Bill Clinton George Bush Jr Barack Obama
Donald Trump not great competition the
bar is very low but he exceeded that bar
I mean Barack Obama's probably the only
person who comes close I think he's
better than Obama in domestic policy I
was talking very much about his domestic
record and I stand by that Biden's
domestic record is the most impressive
domestic record since LBJ you look at
the list appears you know it American
Rescue plan inflation reduction act the
bipartisan infrastructure agreement the
gun control legislation the chips act
the packed act we could go on and on
record low unemployment it's a great
domestic record feel a butt coming
having said that obviously the butt is
October the 7th obviously what he's done
uh on the foreign policy level in
enabling Israel's genocide in Gaza in
arming Israel over a 100 times according
to the post uh since October the 7th in
giving a blank check to some of the
worst fascists in Israel that will be a
stain on his record on his career on his
presidency for many decades to come and
it's a real problem for a lot of people
in this country who supported Biden up
until October 7th I meet many Biden
voters I meet Biden donors who say we
cannot vote for him in November and that
is a real problem so yes I stand by that
headline from last year in domestic
policy terms but overall I would never
say that statement again because he's
been so disappointing on the biggest
moral issue of our time I also thought
the withdrawal from Afghanistan was
absolutely disgraceful and what that did
to we disagree on that I think it was
one of the best things he did but the
way that it was carried out means that
basically millions of Afghan women got
thrown back to the Taliban wolves how
can that be good for
them unfortunately there were no good
options in Afghanistan it was America's
longest war we had failed to quell
terrorism or defeat the Taliban in those
20 years as Barbara Lee warn back in
2001 and our presence there was not
making things better if in many ways it
was making things worse
look the withdrawal was not great
shambolic in many ways but I'm not sure
there was a way to withdraw that
wouldn't have been chaotic if they'd
given lots of notice there probably
would have been an increase in killings
and let's not forget this was Donald
Trump's plan that Biden executed I'm
glad he executed I'm glad that Donald
Trump promised to pull out of
Afghanistan but Joe Biden did it he
ended America's longest war he ended
America's drone War uh he did a lot of
good things on foreign policy until
October the 7th but abandoning Afghan
women to the Taliban wouldn't be
categorized in my list of good things
for an American president to
do there's zero evidence that our
presence there would have helped Afghan
women in the long term in fact Afghan
women continued to be killed maimed and
have their lives destroyed while America
was on the ground Afghanistan the
question you have to ask Piers is how
long were we going to stay there another
100 years 200 years sometimes you have
to stay somewhere a long time to prevent
the people who you displaced coming back
the longest war in American history but
the Taliban seed power literally in days
and they immediately dragged those
millions of women back to the Medieval
ages I mean things it got immeasurably
worse very very quickly for Afghan women
you know whether it was school or that
being allowed out and so on so it that
to me is a calculation if you're an
American president you got to make that
calculation does keeping a few thousand
troops in a place like Afghanistan
prevent the Taliban doing what they've
inevitably done from the moment they got
power
again I think the few ,000 troops were
not having an impact if you look at the
stats Piers uh civilian casualties were
up um the the level of drug production
was up the level of territory control by
the Taliban was up no serious military
Observer thinks that we were winning in
Afghanistan should the Democrats win the
election in November if Joe Biden
insists on being the
candidate I I don't quite understand the
question ask you do you think he'll win
but the more interesting question is
should he win I mean is he it good for
America if a guy who is literally almost
incapable now of speaking a sentence
without making a GFF or staying on his
two feet um should he be the candidate
would that be such a bad thing for
America for the next five years that it
should render the Democrats
disqualified so I'm going to agree with
you from a different direction I'm going
to say that morally he probably
shouldn't be the candidate for president
given what's happened in Israel a lot of
people would prefer stand aside given
the horrific record over the last few
months and the way in which he has as I
say written a blank check to Netanyahu
while netanyahu's carried out what the
top Court in the world calls a plausible
genocide I think there is a lot of blood
on his hands and it would be better for
Democrats given you've seen the
uncommitted vote peers in Michigan in
Minnesota in some of these states uh
could end up costing the Democrats the
presidency so strategically and morally
he probably should step aside but he's
not going to he is the candidate whether
we like it or not and the reality is the
other candidate is Donald J Trump your
old friend and if we're going to talk
about mental unfitness we can't start by
talking about Biden we have to talk
about the most mentally unfit person
ever to run for any office in the United
States and that is Donald J Trump well
that listen that you're perfectly
entitled to your view of him uh but the
reality is that after four years of
Donald Trump's administ surely you don't
disagree P well I'm going to explain to
disagree I'm going to give you some
facts about Donald Trump which are I
think quite startling given what you've
just said one is that in in 2020 nearly
10 million more Americans voted for
Trump than first time around after
looking at him as president for 4 years
that would suggest that a lot of
Americans simply don't agree with you um
secondly this time round he's now got
Muslim and Arab voters migrating away
from the Democrats because of of Joe
Biden towards Donald Trump and when it
comes to the black vote in America even
more extraordinary according to a New
York Times Senate poll released at the
beginning of this month the support
among black voters for Trump is now 23%
which is a 19 percentage point increase
since the same poll in October 2020 so
for the guy who many like you would say
is an appalling racist it seems a lot of
non-white people in America rather like
what they see and what in back in the
white house why
okay
so I mean you said going to deal with
some facts you didn't give me any facts
about Trump you gave me some facts about
Trump supporters do I deny he has
support of course not I spent the last
eight years documenting the crazy high
levels of support for Trump and in 2020
it was deeply shocking to see people
voting for him after everything they had
seen over the previous four years and it
is very worrying about the trends in
American society and it is a fact that
he's a racist I just say I think he's a
racist he's a racist by any definition
of the term and you know you said you're
going to give me some facts about Trump
let me give you some actual facts about
Trump and mental Fitness let's just talk
factually Donald Trump recently confused
uh Nancy Pelosi with Nikki Haley he
claimed he ran against Barack Obama in
2016 he ran against Hillary Clinton uh
he thought that we're about to enter
World War II we've actually had World
War II if we enter another world war
it'll be World War II he thinks you can
stop a hurricane with your nuclear
weapon he thinks you need ID to buy
cereal uh he thinks you can buy
Greenland from Denmark he thinks England
and Great Britain are the same thing he
thinks that stealth bombers are
literally invisible he thinks that you
can beat Co by injecting disinfectant
into your veins the idea that this man
should be allowed near a school board is
absurd the idea that he should be
allowed near the White House again after
everything we know about him Madness and
in fact I believe you called him mad
after January the 6th and I agreed with
that him mad on I've been very critical
of him on many occasions when I felt he
deserved it but I've also tried to I've
also tried to understand why so many
Americans gravitate towards him and I
think what's Stark at the moment if you
look at the the polling for Biden his
approval ratings are shockingly low
given who his opponent is likely to be
um but also particularly amongst
Democrats two-thirds of Democrats don't
think you should run again and they cite
his age and physical and mental
incompetence as the main reason I that's
the reality this is why I think for the
Democrats there's a really sharp click
ticking clock coming here isn't there
where I do think if they persist in
having Biden as the nominee which relies
on him you know standing down which I
don't think he'll do I think that's how
they lose I think you put almost anybody
else in there against Trump for all the
reasons you've just cited they'd have a
much better chance but you see here's
the problem Edie Jo Joe Biden could not
list the things you just listed and
remember them himself so you know when
he tries to talk about Trump's mental
incompetence he forgets halfway through
what he's supposed to be saying that's
the
problem is Biden Gaff prone yes he's
been Gaff prone for a while has it
become worse clearly he's old no one's
debating he's old I think he's trying to
lean into his age now if you look at
some of the ads you look at a state of
the union he did a very good State of
the Union by the way with the exception
of Gaza was a very strong and energetic
performance I don't think anyone can
deny that the issue of course is we have
a media that's singularly unable to
cover Trump properly that's one part of
the problem and of course the age issue
on the Biden front is a I've never
denied that's a problem it is a problem
but the reality is when you say the
Democrats make it he can't be made to
stand out he's winning primaries it's a
democratic process and he's winning if
people want to run against him they can
they didn't and I'm not sure I agree
with you when you say another Democrat
could beat Trump if you look at the
polling other Democrats the vice
president
Fair well not according to the polls the
polls suggest people like vice president
Harris lose much bigger to Trump
definitely not har I'm not talking about
her Joe Biden is the one Democrat who's
beaten Trump he did beat Trump you
mentioned 10 million more votes for
Trump he beat Trump by over eight
million votes I think it was if memory
serves me correctly in 2020 in fact
Donald Trump has never won a popular
vote against a Democrat he lost to
Hillary and he lost to Joe Biden talking
of votes um at the Oscars Barbie got
flatlined by Oppenheimer you said on
MSNBC last summer these are grown men
losing their minds over a movie about a
doll what has happened to conservative
movement there was a time when
conservatives talked about taxes
regulation defense foreign policy but
now it's just Barbie this doctors use
that Bud Light Mr Potato Head uh it's
childish ridiculous pretty pathetic
actually um now I would take issue with
that because I'm not a conservative but
this whole culture War stuff I think is
I think it's very real well I'll tell
you what I would say on the pendulum
historically I've been slightly left to
Center so I was edit of a Daily Mirror
here for 10 years in the UK as you know
having come from these fine Shores um
it's it's it's a labor a labor
supporting newspaper right but what's
happened is the woke left has edited the
news of the world one of the most
right-wing Publications around actually
not onto me but we we can because that
was if you may remember that was an ERA
leading up to Blair and we were we were
all part of the Blair uh uh success
story Tony Blair that famous leftist
yeah exactly but the deposit I make
though is that I think the woke left and
I've heard Bill Mah say the same thing
and others who consider themselves like
me to have been liberals right is that
work left got so insane that actually
people like me and Bill Mar start to
sound like we're vaguely conservative
when I don't really have conservative
ideology at all um but what I would say
is I'm definitely feel more at home with
people SL slightly ride of Center than I
ever will with the woke left and this
cultural stuff is driven and fueled by
the woke left doing Bonkers things like
for example well let me give you an
example let me give you an example when
you allow biological males trans women
to compete against biological females at
sport at Elite level what you are doing
is eff effectively licensing a form of
cheating just as deadly and devastating
to the Integrity of women's sport as
doping there's no denying it because if
you have a a biological physiology you
have a natural Advantage it's unfair but
that's not what we're talking about
that's what we're talking about I'm
sorry I'm not going to let you no no no
because no you didn't you just quoted me
talking about Bud Light and the nonsense
if you want to say there's a debate to
be had about transgender rights about
bathroom issues about sports about where
we go that's a legitimate debate I've
never said you can't have a legitimate
debate aboute WR what I am saying though
is when hold hold on what hold on what I
am saying though listen what I am saying
Piers is that when you have Fox and when
you have your old you know your your
your your man Rupert Murdoch and his
minions pushing these fake culture wars
to divide up Americans they're not fake
we have millions of Americans they're
not well they are PE Millions let me
finish the very real can I finish the
sentence sure well let me finish the
sentence I'll tell you why they're not
you millions of Americans are living I
am if you let me finish a sentence
millions of Americans are are living
paycheck to paycheck the climate crisis
is destroying the planet and you think
we should spend loads of hours on Fox on
cable debating the green M&M's boots do
you think that's a legitimate timec
consuming debate I that a scandal a
scandalous State of Affairs actually but
more importantly people are starving
people are losing their
is
on if you were
intervie is proper journalism if you
were interviewing yourself what you
would now be saying is Medan you have
single-handedly refused to answer the
original question which is do you you
said the woke left you said the W left
let me ask you the question again you
obvious didn't hear me would you do you
support trans women competing in women's
sport do I support trans yes under the
under the under the correct set of rules
yes I do and I'm not an expert on this
subject my understanding is what rule
correct because I believe that the
sports bodies who investigate this stuff
actually look at for example in swimming
what the levels are etc etc I'm not an
expert on this but I will tell you this
if you want to have a debate about
transgender rights that's fine you
should have a transgender guest on to
discuss it it's not my expertise but let
me just be very clear that's not what
you asked you started the question say
you and Bill Mah are not your old
lefties who became conserv you're not
let's be honest Bill Mah is an old white
guy who had a history of bigotry he was
never on the left and therefore I I do
see a lot of old white men who are very
uncomfortable with people of color and
people who don't look or sound like them
asking for rights asking for space
asking for freedom and that is the
backlash if you really cared about Free
Speech you would be going on about the
silencing of pro Palestinian speech on
campus the Banning of books in Florida
not the green Eminem or doctor Su are
all these Fox Murdoch generated fake
controversies but they're not Fox
Murdoch generated controversies they're
generated by yes they are they literally
start on Fox they literally start on Fox
PE you haven't been living here for the
last few years I'm telling you in
America for 20 years they they start
with somebody on the woke I'll give you
a long list after the show's over I
would say they start with somebody on
the woke left doing something nuts and
playing right into the hands some random
person who's Amplified by Fox meanwhile
Ron DeSantis gets a pass from you and
other journalists for bringing in
authoritarian rules in Florida you're
really worried about freed on the
fascists who are getting rid of our
freedom right I think it's F on random
college student with aard that you don't
hang on I think the wokery is a form of
fascism I've said this many times it's
about silencing people that don't agree
with you it's about in the trans debate
if all the trans debate was about was a
was a right to fairness and equality of
trans people I'm a fully signed up
member I want to be clear here I want to
be clear here you think you I'm going be
clear as I said I believe they we should
be able to have a debate about
transgender rights about access about
spaces believe that but are you
suggesting that transgender people one
of the most demonized minorities facing
High rates of violence are fascists are
a fascist threat to America at a time
when your friend Donald Trump is an
actual fascist I'm going to be a
dictator critizing Trump you're misting
I said I said that when the woke left
behave like fascists which I think they
do regularly because they silence any
debate for example Donald Trump when
we're talking about the woke you think
Donald Trump behaves like a fascist
we've already talked about Donald Trump
why why do you not talk about Donald
Trump's f Donald you me how popular he
is you didn't condemn him you condem
I've condemned many things Donald
Trump's done but you cited one of fism
you cided one of them earlier I don't I
don't think Trump is a fascist no no wow
but the left transgender activists a
fascist Trump who says I'm going to be
dictator for I'm talking about why the W
when the woke left wants to suppress
Free Speech they behave like fascists
when they want everyone to conform to
their narrow world view and when they
want to shout down and silence and
suppress debate about for example trans
athletes competing in women's sport who
been Banning books in
America I think that's a form of fascism
who's been Banning books in America
appears the woke left or the Republican
Party actually historically
both no right now who is Banning books
Across America according to every human
B think Republican party or the woke
well it comes this comes down to another
issue which is whether you think that
children can't a simple question which
group of people are B answering your
question I think that when it comes to
kids at school a father of four kids I
actually don't want them exposed to to
graphic stuff in books at school I don't
and nor do I want them exposed to
critical race Theory or any of these
other things that you think are the the
purview of fox and the right wing think
books
about par I think it's fascism it's
fascism to books about MLK and Rosa
Parks sorry I think we should be able to
have books about MLK and Rosa Parks not
banned absolutely pretty fascist
absolutely Rosa Parks kids should not
have critical race Theory preach out
them when they're young I don't agree
with it well there's there's no critical
race theory in American schools so you
know oh well there is and you know there
is no there isn't you're wrong you're
wrong critical race is not taught in K
through2 schools in the America you know
this a university law as you well know
there are many teachers in American
schools who are teaching critical race
Theory and that's been a big problem in
American society they're also teaching
you have to point to me also we PE
anytime I'm on I'm on I'm on Twitter you
follow me please post to me which
teacher is post teaching crial there
I'll be I'll Happ to see that I'll do
that after this interview uh medy I
could talk to you a long time uh I'm
great to see you back on the airwaves
great to see you uncensored living up to
the the name on the tin I wish you all
the best with your new media Empire and
come back soon I enjoyed it thank you so
much it's called Zeto and I appreciate
the opportunity Piers cheers Manny all
the
best
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