Bitcoin Will Change El Salvador’s Future! | Michael Peterson

Summary

In this insightful discussion, Michael Peterson, a key figure in El Salvador's Bitcoin revolution, shares his experiences from the ground up. El Salvador, once plagued by violence and economic instability, has seen a remarkable transformation with Bitcoin's adoption. Peterson highlights how Bitcoin has empowered locals with financial autonomy, spurred economic growth, and improved security. The conversation underscores the potential of cryptocurrency to catalyze positive change in developing economies, emphasizing the importance of community involvement and personal responsibility in driving social progress.

Takeaways

• 🌏 The world is facing numerous challenges such as political instability, food poisoning, and a general sense of darkness, but there are glimmers of hope emerging from unexpected places.
• 🔦 Michael Peterson has been instrumental in sparking a revolution in El Salvador using Bitcoin, an unconventional tool that has gained global attention.
• 🇸🇻 El Salvador's transformation from one of the most dangerous countries to one of the safest has been remarkable, with significant improvements in safety and economic outlook.
• 🏖️ Michael Peterson's work began in El Zonte, a small beach community, which has now become a symbol of hope and change known as Bitcoin Beach.
• 💡 The introduction of Bitcoin has had a profound impact on the mindset of the local population, encouraging long-term thinking and hope for the future.
• 📉 Despite the volatility of Bitcoin, its adoption in El Salvador has provided an alternative to the traditional financial system, offering financial inclusion to the unbanked.
• 🛍️ Businesses in El Salvador have started accepting Bitcoin, leading to a growing ecosystem where Bitcoin is used for transactions and daily purchases.
• 🏘️ The real estate market around Bitcoin Beach has experienced a boom, reflecting the increased interest and investment in the area.
• 👥 There is a growing demand for skilled workers in El Salvador as the economy expands, prompting improvements in the education system to meet the needs of new businesses.
• 🤝 The synergy between government initiatives and grassroots movements like Bitcoin Beach has contributed to El Salvador's progress and global recognition.
• 🌱 The potential for Bitcoin to foster a savings culture even among those with low incomes has been demonstrated, as people begin to understand the value of deferred gratification.

Q & A

What significant transformation has El Salvador experienced in recent years?

El Salvador has transitioned from being one of the most dangerous countries in the world to becoming the safest country in the Americas, with a significant decrease in violence and an increase in economic activity.

What role did Bitcoin play in the changes occurring in El Salvador?

Bitcoin was used as a tool to spark a revolution in El Salvador, providing an alternative financial system and fostering economic growth, especially in areas like Bitcoin Beach.

How did the Bitcoin Beach project start and what was its initial impact?

The Bitcoin Beach project started as a small initiative in El Zonte, a beach community in El Salvador, with the aim of changing the mindset of the youth and providing them with a new perspective on money and saving.

What challenges did El Salvador face before the adoption of Bitcoin?

El Salvador faced high levels of violence, extortion, and economic instability, with many businesses being forced to close due to the inability to pay extortion fees demanded by gangs.

How did the local community in El Zonte respond to the introduction of Bitcoin?

The introduction of Bitcoin led to a change in the mindset of the local community, with people starting to think about money differently, understand deferred gratification, and consider the long-term value of their earnings.

What was the impact of Bitcoin on the local businesses in El Zonte?

Bitcoin helped local businesses by providing an alternative means of transaction, which was particularly useful during the COVID-19 lockdown when traditional economic activities were disrupted.

How did the government of El Salvador get involved with the Bitcoin Beach project?

The government got involved after recognizing the positive impact of the project on the local community and seeing it as a way to change the country's narrative from one of violence to one of innovation.

What has been the role of President Nayib Bukele in El Salvador's Bitcoin adoption?

President Nayib Bukele has been instrumental in embracing Bitcoin as legal tender in El Salvador, shaking up the traditional political landscape and pursuing real change, including going after corruption within his own party.

How has the Bitcoin adoption impacted remittances in El Salvador?

Bitcoin adoption has the potential to significantly impact remittances by providing a more convenient and cost-effective way for Salvadorans abroad to send money back home, although the full impact is still unfolding.

What are some of the challenges faced by the Bitcoin Beach project in terms of adoption and usage?

Some challenges include volatility in Bitcoin's value, which can affect people's purchasing power, and the need to educate people on the benefits of using Bitcoin and how to manage its volatility for daily transactions.

What is the future outlook for Bitcoin in El Salvador according to the transcript?

The future outlook is positive, with continued growth in Bitcoin adoption and its integration into the daily lives of Salvadorans, although it is expected to be a gradual process rather than an immediate transformation.

Outlines

00:00

🌏 A Glimmer of Hope in Darkness

The script opens with a discussion of global turmoil, mentioning assassination attempts, government coups, and poisoned food, painting a bleak picture. However, it introduces a hopeful narrative emerging from El Salvador, where Michael Peterson is spearheading a 'revolution' using Bitcoin. The conversation highlights El Salvador's transformation from being one of the world's most dangerous countries to a safer one, largely due to the adoption of Bitcoin. Michael shares his experiences from the past 20 years, detailing the escalation of gang violence post-housing crisis and the drastic changes that have occurred, making the once war-zone-like conditions unrecognizable to newcomers.

05:01

🔄 From Peril to Potential: El Salvador's Transformation

This paragraph delves deeper into El Salvador's past dangers, including rampant extortion affecting even small vendors, leading to a cycle of violence and economic decline. The discussion shifts to the impact of Bitcoin and the concurrent political changes under President Nayib Bukele, who pursued anti-corruption measures. The introduction of Bitcoin, particularly in El Zonte (Bitcoin Beach), is highlighted as a catalyst for positive change, improving education, safety, and economic outlook. The narrative emphasizes the synergy between government initiatives and grassroots Bitcoin adoption, which has put El Salvador on the global stage.

10:03

🚀 The Spark of Bitcoin Beach

The origin story of Bitcoin Beach is explored, starting with Michael and his wife's move to El Salvador for missionary work. Initially focused on community development and youth programs, the project evolved with the integration of Bitcoin, inspired by an anonymous donor interested in fostering Bitcoin circular economies. The donor's vision was to see Bitcoin not just as an investment but as a currency that could change societal dynamics. The implementation began with paying youth for community service in Bitcoin, sparking curiosity and a shift in their understanding of money and savings.

15:04

🌐 The Ripple Effects of Bitcoin Integration

The narrative discusses the challenges and successes of integrating Bitcoin into the community of El Zonte amidst the COVID-19 pandemic. The use of Bitcoin as a stimulus during lockdowns helped sustain families and businesses, avoiding economic collapse. The script also touches on the broader implications of Bitcoin adoption, such as reduced remittance fees due to competition with traditional money transfer services. It highlights the gradual but significant shift towards Bitcoin, even among those not directly using it, and the overall economic benefits for El Salvador.

20:05

📉 Navigating Bitcoin's Volatility

This section addresses the impact of Bitcoin's price fluctuations on El Salvador's economy and the local response to it. The community's initial reaction to crashes was one of panic, but this was met with education and reassurance from the Bitcoin advocates. The script mentions the adaptation strategies of locals, such as using different wallets to mitigate risks during volatile periods. It also contrasts the challenges of Bitcoin's volatility with the freedom and financial inclusion it offers, especially to the unbanked population.

25:08

🏗️ Building a Future with Bitcoin

The script outlines the ongoing development in El Salvador, driven by the hope and energy brought about by Bitcoin and supportive government policies. It discusses the country's shift from high unemployment to a booming job market, particularly in construction and service industries. The influx of investment and businesses has led to a demand for skilled workers, prompting improvements in the education system. The narrative underscores the country's rapid transformation, akin to the early days of Bitcoin, and its role as a testbed for Bitcoin usability and adoption.

30:10

🤝 The Human Connection in Philanthropy

The final paragraph reflects on the importance of personal involvement in helping others, rather than relying solely on government programs. It criticizes the lack of personal giving and the sense of entitlement fostered by state handouts. The conversation advocates for a return to direct, human-scale philanthropy, where the joy of giving and the gratitude of receiving are both palpable and impactful. It calls for a mindset shift in the Bitcoin community and beyond, encouraging the use of personal resources to make a difference in the world.

Keywords

💡Dark World

The term 'Dark World' is used metaphorically in the script to describe a global situation filled with negative events such as attempted assassinations, coups, and poisoned food. It sets a grim tone for the beginning of the discussion and contrasts with the later mention of hope and positive change, particularly in El Salvador.

💡Glimmering Hope

The phrase 'Glimmering Hope' refers to a small but significant sign of optimism or positive change amidst a generally bleak situation. In the video, it is used to transition the conversation towards the unexpected positive developments in El Salvador, sparked by the adoption of Bitcoin and other reformative measures.

💡Bitcoin

Bitcoin is a decentralized digital currency that operates without a central bank or single administrator. In the script, it is highlighted as an unlikely tool that has been instrumental in economic and social changes in El Salvador, demonstrating its potential as a catalyst for positive transformation beyond its monetary value.

💡El Salvador

El Salvador is a country in Central America that has been historically associated with high crime rates and poverty. The script discusses its transformation from being one of the most dangerous countries to a safer one, attributing this change to the leadership of President Nayib Bukele and the adoption of Bitcoin.

💡Assassinations and Coups

The terms 'assassinations' and 'coups' refer to the violent removal of political leaders, either through murder or a sudden overthrow of the government, respectively. These words are used in the script to emphasize the global political instability and violence that contrasts with the positive changes in El Salvador.

💡Michael Peterson

Michael Peterson is mentioned in the script as an individual who has been instrumental in starting a movement in El Salvador using Bitcoin. His work on the ground is presented as a key factor in the country's shift towards a more hopeful and secure future.

💡Bitcoin Beach

Bitcoin Beach is a term used to describe a community in El Salvador that has adopted Bitcoin as part of its economy. It serves as a real-world example of how cryptocurrency can be integrated into daily transactions and has become a symbol of the innovative financial changes in the country.

💡Extortion

Extortion is the practice of obtaining money or other goods from someone by using force or threats. In the script, it is mentioned as a significant issue in El Salvador that affected local businesses and contributed to the country's high crime rates before the recent changes.

💡President Nayib Bukele

President Nayib Bukele is the head of state of El Salvador, who is credited in the script with initiating significant reforms that have led to a decrease in crime and an increase in economic activity. His administration's embrace of Bitcoin is highlighted as a key factor in the country's transformation.

💡Lifeguard Program

The term 'Lifeguard Program' refers to an initiative established in El Salvador with the help of Bitcoin, which aimed to reduce the number of drowning incidents, particularly on beaches. It is an example of how Bitcoin's influence extended beyond financial transactions to impact community safety and well-being.

💡Remittances

Remittances are money transfers sent by foreign workers to their home countries. The script mentions that El Salvador receives a significant portion of its GDP from remittances, and the adoption of Bitcoin has the potential to make these transactions more efficient and cost-effective, benefiting the Salvadoran economy.

Highlights

El Salvador's transformation from one of the most dangerous countries to one of the safest in the Americas.

The unlikely use of Bitcoin as a tool for economic and social change in El Salvador.

Michael Peterson's grassroots efforts in El Salvador, fostering a Bitcoin-based revolution.

The stark contrast between El Salvador's past gang violence and its current hopeful outlook.

The introduction of Bitcoin in El Salvador, coinciding with a shift in political will towards positive change.

The impact of Bitcoin on local communities, including increased high school attendance and college enrollment.

The challenges faced by El Salvador's economy due to extortion, affecting both locals and businesses.

How Bitcoin is being used as a stimulus and lifeline for communities during the COVID-19 crisis.

The importance of aligning incentives for individuals to save and invest in their future through Bitcoin.

The role of Bitcoin in facilitating remittances and reducing reliance on traditional money transfer services.

The influence of El Salvador's Bitcoin adoption on the development of cryptocurrency payment infrastructure.

The emergence of Bitcoin Beach as a model for circular Bitcoin economies worldwide.

The philosophical and practical debate on individual responsibility versus state welfare in societal support systems.

The personal stories of transformation through Bitcoin, from immediate consumption to future planning.

The potential of Bitcoin to empower the unbanked and provide financial inclusion globally.

The call to action for the Bitcoin community to engage in direct community support and philanthropy.

The ongoing evolution of El Salvador's economy and society with the integration of Bitcoin.

Transcripts

in a world that's seemingly going dark

it's bad everywhere you look attempted

assassinations coups on the government

the foods being poisoned and there's no

problem finding bad in this world

there's a glimmering hope there's a

there's a there's a light coming from

the most unlikely place in the world

right now and so rather than focusing on

the dark let's focus on the light and

let's think about a better future now

somebody who's been on the ground boots

on the ground helping to spark that

Revolution if we'll call it that um is

Michael Peterson Michael Peterson

started a movement down there using the

most unlikely tool which is Bitcoin

which is now on the global

stage so U Michael thanks for sitting

down with me hey it's great to be here

with you again yeah yeah it's been a

while since we caught up um The

glimmering Shining hope that we have um

of a little unlikely country uh it's

pretty amazing um hopefully people been

paying attention I mean El Salvador went

from the most dangerous country in the

world to the safest country in the world

you've been down there a long time how

long have you been down there and how

dangerous was it and how has it become a

lot safer yeah so we've been down there

for 20 years and it was actually when we

first when we first bought our place

down there it was kind of on it was

seemed like it was getting better but

then after the housing crisis that's

that's when the gang problem really

started to proliferate and it was for

about 10 years it would go back and

forth between El Salvador and Honduras

as being the highest murder rate in the

world it was literally off the charts

worst than a lot of countries that were

you know officially at War not a title

you want no no it was yeah it was I mean

even in our community elante which is a

beautiful little Beach Community I mean

you would see bodies you know in the

street and it was wow it really felt

like you were in a war zone and it's

crazy how much that has changed now

people who come can't even imagine that

that's what it was

like now I spent a lot of time in Mexico

uh we're building the house in Mexico

right now so we're down there a lot and

you hear a lot about murders and death

in Mexico as well

but from my experience it's never really

like in the towns it's you know out of

town it's the the cartels they're

fighting so you the numbers are there

but you don't see it uh I'm curious I

mean you said you saw the body so that's

that's obviously a whole different story

was it but was it really kind of uh just

the gangs or did it really spill over

into just like regular people no it

really spilled over into the regular

people because the you know unlike

Mexico where it's it's mostly revolves

around drug trade uh there's in El

Salvador it was about extortion and so

it was these the little mom and pop

vendors that were being extorted and so

when they wouldn't pay they would just

execute them and so you would actually

see it you know in the street as you're

you know coming down the street you'd

see the the body there and the police

out there and so it really was something

that you couldn't get away from and it

for foreigners I mean we never really

felt in danger it was one of those

things that you were kind of off limits

as a foreigner because the repercussions

would be much stronger if they were to

kill a foreigner and so and and

foreigners were just seen as kind of

more Troublesome they're more likely to

fight back they're more likely to report

if they're trying to be extorted and so

it didn't affect them directly but you

know you saw it all around you and then

you know you're friends with the local

people in the community so you saw how

it affected them yeah how did it affect

them I mean it holds them back they're

able to plan long term I mean like what

were they kind of the% I mean they so

for one thing most of them their their

goal was to get out of the country that

was primary goal was to you know usually

to come to the US illegally was the the

the main thought the other thing you'd

see you often see people start up a

business and then they would shut it

down right away because they would come

to them and say Hey you have to pay this

much and a lot of times they would make

a rational decision you know is it can

they stay in business and pay this they

looked at it kind of as a tax and so

they would make that decision but a lot

of times the what the gangs wanted them

to pay it just wasn't sustainable and so

you would see these businesses come and

go and shut down real quickly you also

had these weird things businesses would

set up in you know closed neighborhoods

that were behind Gates um and they

wouldn't put up any signage they

wouldn't it was hard to even know you

had to have like an inside track to even

know where the business was because they

were always trying to stay one step

ahead of the gangs W which obviously

makes it very hard to run a profitable

business if you can't even put a sign

out FR yeah so then everything just kind

of continues to spiral downhill I mean

there's less businesses being started

there's less money to go around there's

less jobs people don't have as much

money to spend with other business is

and so it's was like this is spiral that

started oh it was a cycle of Destruction

because then you have the parents

leaving they go to the us so you have

the kids growing up without their

parents around which then become prey to

The Gangs because they don't have any

family there and so the gang provided

family for them so as that as the gangs

grew that made it less and less

profitable to run a business there which

made more people flee so it was kind of

like that's so most people just felt

like there was no future in El Salvador

and I heard that they even prayed on the

kids because of like the age difference

and like kids couldn't really be

prosecuted for Crime so then really

those kids became a big Target oh yeah

it was usually the the 12 13 year olds

that were the trigger men and for one

thing they couldn't be prosecuted as ads

it's another thing you know for them it

was kind of like a video game they don't

understand the repercussions of what

they're doing yeah and so they could get

these kids to to go in and you know just

blast people away without really

thinking about it you know as people get

older even Harden criminals they start

to you know think more about the

repercussions of what they're doing but

as a kid it just seemed a game to them

yeah now now um obviously you know with

with Bitcoin Beach you know that's where

kind of the

world a lot of the world started paying

attention but where did the shift where

do you see now looking backwards where

do you think that shift in momentum

started to go from this downward spiral

the most dangerous country in the world

like what was the spark do you

think I think it was was two things I

mean I think and I think they happened

in a synergistic way so I definitely

give credit to the president buelli he

came in and really was willing to shake

things up um the previous politicians it

had all been about getting in power so

you could drain as much money from the

state as possible and he really shifted

that where he wanted to see real change

come he even people within his own party

that were corrupt he went after them and

he really made people feel like for the

first time that there was potentially

going to be a future in El Salvador um

it happened to be that we had started

the Bitcoin project at that same time

and so they were seeing just the impact

that Bitcoin had has you know it's like

a mind virus it it shifts people's

perspective gives them uh lower time

preference makes them think longer term

and makes them hopeful about the future

and so we were seeing this project that

started as this very small thing in

elante grow and start you know affecting

the the communities around us we started

like a lifeguard program there was the

number of kids attending High School

like tripled people were going to

college it was all these different not

just saving in Bitcoin but all these

secondary and tertiary impacts of

Bitcoin and so while the government was

making these big changes on the national

level there these things happening in

elante and then they embraced saw what

was happening there and said hey let's

combine these forces and so I think it

was you know all of these things coming

together in kind of a magical way yeah

so where there's no hope the people

perish kind of a thing right so when the

president came in and showed that there

was going to be change happening then

people were hopeful for that and then as

well as the Bitcoin thing allowed people

to think more long term and that created

more hope and and also brings in

business and opportunity and they saw

tourists you know people cared about El

salador all of a sudden I mean it really

put El Salvador on the world map when he

made that decision to make it legal

tender

people that was I mean that that kind of

came about I want to get get to that but

I'm just curious because so you were in

the United States and you spent like

half your year in El Salvador and half

your year in the United States kind of a

thing we were there like 9 months in El

Salvador and 3 months we'd come back for

the summers in the US yeah so you were

kind of one in one out and I guess the

question that I'm thinking about or

asking is it seems like um it's sort of

back to the Hope in the air or the

directionality if you will because I try

to think about like the United States is

going in a horrible Direction and things

look very Bleak but at the same time if

I want to shift my perspective it's also

still probably the greatest place in the

world to

live um but but the hope is kind of gone

because we see where it's going so even

though it's still probably the best

place in the world to live it's heavy

because of where we're going where's El

Salvador is still one of the poorest

countries in the world it is right the

services are poor right Etc the roads

are bad Etc but the hope is different

the energy the direction is different

and so really even though the the

current conditions couldn't be more

opposite the directions they're going

are different and that creates a

different energy is that right no 100% I

think that's one thing people miss and

or underestimate is just the the impact

of the animal spirits in a population

like if the population thinks that

tomorrow is going to be better they're

more likely to save they're more likely

to invest in education they're more

likely to um defer current purchases

just for gratification to to more for

investment and to think longer term

where if you think things are going to

be worse in the future you're just going

to live for the day and so I think that

is really what makes a difference

between economies and and countries that

are on the upswing and those who are on

the downswing it's just that perspective

and that that hope that's exactly right

so then you're around people who also

have that and so to your point living

for today versus living long term and so

then it's just the whole culture gets

dragged down so um so you you were there

you've been there for a while and then

um one little sliver of Hope in that

country that you said kind of started at

the same time was then this project in

elante which has now been dub Bitcoin

Beach uh give us the origin of that like

what was the spark for that yeah so we

had you know that elante where where it

started that's where that's where I live

you know my wife and I were were working

um with Mion in in the country we moved

to El Salvador to to work with like a

broad base of different missionaries

there and we were based on the beach

mostly because I like to Surf and so I

wanted to be on the beach and you know

even in elante though there was this

kind of quaint tourist town it the the

gangs ran everything and so we had an

opportunity to start some youth programs

with some local leaders and really start

to try to change the the mindset of the

youth there and originally we were

wasn't involved with Bitcoin I was a

bitcoiner but I wasn't really thinking

that what this so this was probably

2016 that that happened that we started

the the youth programs there and then um

but you know and I was into Bitcoin but

I didn't really you know you think of

that as like a separate world yeah and

there were a lot of times where I was

thinking you know we were trying to

bring money down to to you know buy uh

vehicles for the project or things like

that and it was a headache using the

wire system I was like man if we could

just use Bitcoin it but I never

envisioned that that would actually be a

possibility and so uh in

2019 uh I was introduced to to somebody

that was in early in the Bitcoin space

that wanted to see Bitcoin circular

economies rise up and they heard about

the work we were doing in El Salvador

and they said hey maybe maybe there's a

connection there they were supporting

some other Ministries that we were

familiar with and so I thought hey I I

doubt it's going to you know it would

work but let's let's take a chance and

meet and so how this crazy meeting it

wasn't even the the donor it was his

representative because he wanted to

remain anonymous wow but heard the story

of hey there's somebody there that that

really sees the the Bitcoin that they

have from from early days as not just

the value in the you know the monetary

value but the way using Bitcoin as

currency as it was meant to be used will

actually impact society and so they kind

of challenged us to think of a way to

start a A system that could be began to

pull away from the Fiat system yeah wow

and they've remained Anonymous yeah wow

crazy still there's still a lot of

people that want to do good in this

world that's amazing so um they gave you

a Bitcoin you broke it down into the 100

million Satoshi that are available and

then what I mean you start giving it to

people to say hey I'm going to give it

to you but you need to spend it or you

talk to businesses about buying and

selling it or how did that then get

going yeah so initially we just um used

it in the the projects we were already

doing so we were you know we had been

paying the youth to to clean the river

and the beaches you know mostly just try

to keep them occupied it also gave us a

chance to to walk alongside them and

Mentor them and when I say us I mean

more like the local team members there

that were doing that I tried to remain

behind the scenes as much as possible I

just I'm very much a proponent that

things need to come from the local level

and from people that are in the

community and so we started using

Bitcoin you know to to compensate them

and it was originally we just thought it

would be like you now paying them and it

wouldn't make a difference if we were

paying them in dollars or Bitcoin but we

saw when we just started paying them in

Bitcoin it really changed the way they

started thinking about things because

they became curious about money like

what is money they thought about that

for the first time they they started

considering the cost of spending

something now versus holding it for

later because they understood that this

would most likely appreciate and value

over time and so they they for the first

time understood deferred gratification

and so we saw these things happen this

was on a very very small level when was

happing and then we had um podcaster

Peter McCormack came in and and spent

some time with us and then when he did

some things it it kind of you know

started to blow up we started to get a

number of Bitcoin tourists that that

started coming in and we were able to

expand the programs and then Co hit and

that really gave us the opportunity to

to expand it to the whole Community um

anybody who's worked in in any type of

development work understands that you

know a lot of well- meaning people come

in with projects and wind up doing a lot

more harm than good because you if you

just throw a bunch of money at people a

lot of times you disincentivize them to

work you you can distort the local

economy and actually put local

businesses out of business if you start

providing free services so it's it's

always a balance and so we wanted to be

very aware of that but when Co hit

everything was locked down people were

not allowed to work people were going

hungry and the the businesses were going

out of business because nobody had any

money so it gave us kind of the freedom

to do like a CommunityWide dispersement

of Bitcoin and we started sending

Bitcoin to the like a stimulus very much

like a stimulus it was and probably 90%

of the families were receiving you know

a a a I can't remember how many SATs it

was at the time that we were sending out

but you know it was enough to to buy

maybe half their basic food items for

the month and so it but it wasn't

distortive in any way because they

weren't allowed to work anyways and so

it really kept these families fed and it

also kept the businesses alive and it

made it very easy for us to onboard

businesses because it was the only

currency circulating in the community

and so they were coming rather than us

having to come to them and try to orange

pill them they were coming to us like

Hey how do we how do we get involved in

this and so it really helped supercharge

it and set the stage for you know for

what later you know became this became

aous within the community that the

majority of the businesses are accepting

Bitcoin so was this happening so this

you said like when buale came in and

started changing things was kind of

around the same time so around 2019 is

was when you started kind of the project

there and then right so that was kind of

coming up at the same time yeah so we we

started a little bit before he was

elected because I I remember he was on

the scene it was during it was campaign

season and I remember um actually did

when I did a podcast with Peter I

remember telling him like there's this

new president and I think that there's a

possibility that he could be the first

president to adopt Bitcoin is legal

tender like he has this sense of wanting

to embrace new things everybody thought

it was crazy at the time but I was like

no I see this happening and so it was

funny that that it actually came to be

we were we were definitely swinging for

the fences there how was it that that

became on his map like all of a sudden

was someone from his team alerted him he

wanted to come take a look at it or like

you know did did it just get so big and

it made so much change in the country

that he couldn't ignore it or how'd that

work I think a couple things there was a

Forbes article that came out talking

about the projects and it was probably

one of the first articles about El

Salvador was that was positive that

wasn't talking about the gangs and the

violence and it talking about this new

Innovative project that was happening in

El Salvador by a major publication so I

think that kind of put it on their radar

and then we we really tried to engage

the government from early stages because

we didn't want them to hear rumors like

oh Bitcoin money laundering drug you

know all the negative connotations that

that came with Bitcoin especially in in

the earlier days and so we would be very

open with them we were working with the

ministry of Tourism to promote tourism

through Bitcoin we also established the

country's first lifeguard program they

didn't have any lifeguard program in the

country and there would be probably

about 300 people that would drown each

year you know some of them tourists but

but most of them locals yeah and so we

um brought in a team to to do the full I

think it was 120 hour course with the

international life saving Foundation to

get internationally certified and then

the whole all the beaches and the

surrounding region around elante we paid

these lifeguards I think there was 90

that went through the training we were

paying them in Bitcoin to patrol these

beaches literally saving you know dozens

of lives um just in that region and so I

think they saw like the impact of that

and then we were able to have a meeting

with uh the minister of the economy um

miles Su do you know miles sud yeah so

miles was happened to be in town and so

we got this meeting and and you know we

we thought it' be a brief meeting and

she came in with all her for AIDS and we

sat down for three hours and just really

tried to show how uh adopting Bitcoin

could change the whole narrative about

El Salvador like it was really from our

point of view the only way that they

could flip the the script about El

Salvador from people thinking of it as

as gangs and violence to thinking of it

as this Innovative country that was

Leading The Way with Way Forward and so

and of course we we knew that buelli was

somebody who had you know International

Ambitions he he wants to leave a legacy

I think he wants to go down in the

history books and so we were like hey

this is the way he can go down in the

history books like there's coming from a

small country like El Salvador it's very

hard to to spark worldwide change but if

he is the first one to adopt Bitcoin as

legal tender like nobody else will have

that claim he will be in the history

books and so we kept kind of pushing

from that angle

how much of that impacted it I don't

know maybe there was other things so

it's it's hard to tell but it was it was

definitely on our radar we saw we we

never want to rely on government but

it's much easier if the government is is

going in the same direction of you than

trying to fight you on things yeah you

you know that's uh in in this kind of

space specifically but even just overall

you have that balance of like I don't

want really want to be in politics uh

but if we're called to be good citizens

then that means we are are involved yeah

and so Jordan Peterson says that if you

ABD toate your power then a tyrant is

going to take it every time so it's like

most of us just want to focus on our

family and our business and whatever but

if if we don't take that responsibility

then we get what we get kind of a thing

um so if we're going to you know if

anyone's going to run it hopefully it's

good representatives of that now you

started buying in that started in 2019

so that was sort of coming out of the

bare Market we kind of had this run up

but then in 2020 the price of Bitcoin

the US dollar value of Bitcoin crashed

really heavy um so I'm curious what it

was like for 2019 into 2020 cuz you said

people started thinking about long-term

preference right they probably saw the

value evation of Bitcoin going up the

purchasing power of Bitcoin going up so

they started thinking about saving but

then it crashed in 2020 and and very

dramatically so I'm curious what that

was like and then it started running

back up again um and then it crashed

again so how's the ups and downs been

when you're trying to use it to like

plan your daily food or weekly food kind

of a thing yeah so I think uh you know

they these the people in El Salvador

kind of come into it the same way most

of us have come into it you have to go

through at least one cycle before you

kind of realize you have to get punched

in the face once exactly so you know

when when the first crashes were were

happening you know especially like we

had that big drop off when when covid

was starting um yeah people were

freaking out because we had a lot of

stores that that had been accepting it

and you know they're on you know calling

us at 2: a.m. like what in the world's

happening so we had to just kind of

handh them them knowledge hey this is

what's happened in the past were even in

the early days where we would personally

sometimes like reimburse them for for

their losses so wow you know you just

felt a sense of responsibility and and

it was you know we're not talking about

crazy huge amounts for them it was

life-changing amounts you know for for

us it wasn't you know something that

that was going to be that impactful so

we would walk with them in that but then

also try to educate them and like hey

this is the history of it this is how

well this is normal for Bitcoin but over

the long term this is the direction that

that it moves in so if there's something

that you need to pay next week then yeah

maybe it's better for you to hold that

in dollars to be able to make that

payment but if this is something

longterm it's going to be much more

beneficial for you saving in this but

the other aspect of it is is rather is

the Bitcoin Network kind of separating

that from Bitcoin the the currency the

network for them provided them this

freedom to do electronic payments to you

know have uh basically a bank account on

their phone all these things that they

hadn't had before so there was even with

the volatility the the benefits that it

brought of actually being connected to a

worldwide

Network for a lot of people made it made

it worth it and you know they were very

Innovative they learned to ride the the

waves we would see when uh when strike

came in uh a lot of before that people

were using the Bitcoin Beach wallet when

strike came in they would use the both

wallets and they would they would

basically use them as like a trading

vehicle when they wanted to move the

dollars they would move it into their

strike wallet at that time strike only

you could only hold it as dollars you

couldn't hold it as Bitcoin and then

they would move it back and forth and so

you know they would figure out the ways

to kind of mitigate the uh the risk and

but it's then we have the challenge on

the other side when you have the upswing

people start to get that speculative

fever and they're telling us oh yeah I'm

going to sell my house and to buy

Bitcoin or you know I'm I'm going to

borrow money to buy and so then we're on

the other side like hey no like this is

super volatile you could get wiped out

like just as longterm just steadily

accumulate use it in your daily life as

currency try to keep pulling back and

removing yourself from the Fiat system

but don't become a Speculator

yeah as I mentioned earlier I'm building

a house down in Mexico and I'm really

seeing it firsthand because like the

building materials some are coming from

America some are coming from Europe some

are like so like we're getting invoices

but the invo

are shifting all the time from the time

I get the invoice time I pay because the

because the um exchange rates are

constantly moving around and it's making

me realize for the first time how much

everyone is forced to be a Speculator

you know being on a dollar standard I

don't really realize this but now like

I'm buying stuff in euros and stuff in

dollars and stuff in pesos and like

trying to manage that has been very

difficult and more importantly for them

I see the people in Mexico the people

that are giving the invoices and

importing like it's like almost it's

it's a nightmare for them and and

forcing them to be a Speculator well I'm

how hard has it been just trying to get

them paid too to get money down there

yeah luckily that hasn't been too bad uh

most of them have American bank accounts

I can wire into so my general contractor

has an American bank account uh my main

like appliance guy which was a lot of

money you know they have American bank

so that that's been a little bit easier

um but certainly moving money out of the

country is is difficult um one thing

that U most people don't realize is that

uh there's you know approximately a

billion billion and a half adults in the

world that don't have access to bank in

a lot of them don't have access to

banking because they don't have

permission to join so they don't have

the right documentation or whatever it

is or a sanctioned country um when I

came down to um Bitcoin Beach and uh

tried to get a little program off the

ground that unfortunately didn't work

but um I realized for the first time

that a lot of people in El salador

didn't have access to banking because

they didn't have enough money yeah so

they didn't have enough money to pay the

monthly fee and then Merchants weren't

able to get point of sale or or Merchant

accounts CU they didn't have enough

transactions so like there maybe they

were owed to be in the system but they

couldn't afford it but but that goes

back to the the problems with kyc and

AML they've put this high price on

bringing people into the banking system

so we've locked literally billions of

people out of the banking system because

it just will never be profitable to bank

them it's not that they don't have the

documentation but it it's expensive for

the banks to do all these compliance

procedure so it really makes these

people unbankable yeah and then if they

can't get into the financial system then

they can't get into the world you know I

talk about the invention of the

smartphone it's like now we could learn

anything meet anybody do anything and

like you have kids now that have an

Instagram account could make

$100,000 but only if they can get into

the banking system and so Bitcoin was

able to kind of give that to them yeah

what about uh the remittance thing so I

think about 30% of uh El Salvador's GDP

comes for remittances and so if I want

to send money down there that's very

inconvenient for me Western Union have

to get cash go stand in line the whole

thing but then how do they get it down

in El Salvador or how were they yeah so

they you know they have offices there

that they would go to receive it usually

they'd have to go in person to to pick

it up you know there's fees involved

it's a lot of them don't yeah they don't

have their own vehicles and so they're

riding the bus it's it's definitely very

inconvenient in in a lot of different

ways um but you know that's why there's

so much promise with with Bitcoin yeah

yeah but it's it's one thing you find

with people is people are creatures of

habit and so just because something's

better doesn't mean people are going to

immediately move to it it takes there's

usually a process of them discovering

that especially something very personal

like money people like no I know how to

do this and even though it costs me this

I'm going so they have to kind of be you

know aided along the way and we're

seeing that gradually happen as people

kind of gradually shift to that the

other great thing that we've seen and

and this is something that people people

underestimate and that people that

aren't even using Bitcoin are are

benefiting from El Salvador's adoption

of Bitcoin is Western Union money gram

all these companies see the threat and

so they've all pushed their fees way

down I'd say about they've cut them

probably 50% and they've made the

experience better because now they

realize they're having to compete with

somebody being able to send you know

from their phone to somebody else's

phone and not have any intermediary so

it's really forced them to step up their

game and so now you have literally you

know million plus Salvadorans and and

that are benefiting from Bitcoin that

aren't even using Bitcoin but they're

benefiting from the competition that the

Bitcoin the whole economy is benefiting

I mean now there's more money in the

economy overall right so that's a big

deal now you we talked about not

everyone has access to banking a lot of

people can't afford it because the

expense of kyc Etc um and so one thing I

think about you know in regards to

bitcoin adoption you know from a US

Centric lens move some of your savings

in there we say you know don't invest

what you afford to lose if you can't you

know lock it up for a couple years Etc

but people down there don't even have

money to pay for a checking account so I

think about in these developing

countries and I know you you know have

ties down in Peru and other countries

like that so where people are living on

like five bucks a day like they're not

really saving so I think sometimes like

how does Bitcoin help people that aren't

saving and so you mentioned you know

some people are trying to be speculators

but if there's people that are so poor

they don't really have long-term savings

they can't think about the long-term

value of Bitcoin I mean is it really

even helping them I mean directly as

opposed to indirectly or yeah you would

be surprised and I and I went into this

thinking that same thing like these

people make so little there's no way

that they'd be able to save but at the

same time you look around and there's

you know McDonald's everywhere and

cocacola everywhere and all these

consumer goods that these people are

buying and so even though they're not

making that much money they are making

choices every day where they could

choose to save but it's it for a lot of

it seemed pointless and so buying that

coke was like the you know reward for a

very hard day but when they switch over

to a Bitcoin standard they they really

start realizing the cost of buying that

Coca-Cola because those SATs that

they're going to spend on that are going

to be worth a lot more in the future and

so we saw people that I would have told

you there's no way we can expect them to

save because their salary is too low

started saving and accumulated money and

you would you know see on their phone

you're like what you got like a month's

salary in

like on your phone and before you

usually had your money spent before you

even received it and they're like yeah

I'm saving up for to replace my roof or

to get my teeth fixed and so we've seen

that really

the the thought that a lot of us have

that these people aren't capable of

saving is is untrue like they are

capable they the incentives just have to

be aligned yeah that's good now uh here

we are about four years or so into this

experiment um

there's a lot you know mainstream media

has to your point uh the first time was

talking positively about it we've seen a

lot of pieces come out talk about

negative about it so we've heard both

both back and forth um some reports come

back and say that uh Bitcoin isn't

really being used there there's really

nowhere to spend it it's not as as as

proliferated as people would think it

would be um so we hear both sides of the

story where have we come in four years

like where is it at right now so it's

much further along than I ever would

have dreamed you can you know

it's it just and it really depends on

where your what your expectations are of

my expectation is these things are

decade long Transformations that's it's

not going to happen overnight but

there's many people living in El

Salvador that that only live on bitcoin

they you can you know the major

supermarkets take Bitcoin the you know

we've bought vehicles from dealership

with Bitcoin and not just in Bitcoin

Beach no not just in Bitcoin Beach it's

now if you want to be able to go to any

store you want and expect to use Bitcoin

that's not going to be realistic but you

there's a network of stores like I said

the main supermarkets their version of

Costco accepts Bitcoin and their

lightning payments now so it's super

easy yeah so you know like when we were

buying Vehicles we chose to buy from a

dealership that accepted Bitcoin that we

weren't you know we maybe would have

bought a different vehicle if if the

other dealerships were accepting Bitcoin

but we bought Mahindra pickup trucks

because that was the dealership we

wanted to support the dealership that

was accepting so you do have to make

some tradeoffs if you want to live on a

Bitcoin standard so so for people that

think that like you can use it

everywhere yeah definitely not but the

rate at which it's growing is much

faster and the adoptions much faster

than when credit cards were introduced

to El salador or even into the US you

look at credit cards when they were

introduced how long it took before they

were really taken everywhere I mean it

took decades before it became common for

you to be able to use a credit card at

you know even like a fast food

restaurant or something like that so I

think it just you got have to have

realistic expectations but I think 5

years from now people will be like oh

yeah of course it was obvious all the

time once they adopted it would be you

know be able to use everywhere yeah I

think as the Bill Gates quote that

people overestimate what they can do in

a year and underestimate what can be

done in a decade right and so I say that

all the time with Bitcoin you just you

just expect way too much too soon and

especially to the point you made earlier

about money money is a whole different

thing it's one thing to switch over to a

new social media account it's a whole

different thing to switch over your

money so um from that perspective I see

that now but the other thing I just want

to H real quick was the role El Salvador

has played in in pushing the the tools

and the resources forward because when

Els Salvador made this adoption there

wasn't that many great wallets out there

or point of sale or or even the way to

spend Bitcoin really didn't work that

well and so when El Salvador moved in

that direction all these companies came

in and they continued to develop better

products and it makes it much more easy

to use Bitcoin where now if I spend

Bitcoin a lot of these places it happens

faster than if I try to use my credit

credit card where initially you know

they were still doing things on chain so

you'd be sitting there in the

supermarket waiting for your

confirmation and hoping it made it in

the next block so we're seeing that um

you know Salvador be kind of a

laboratory I think for the world to get

Bitcoin to the usability that it's going

to need to to jump and become the the

uous currency that's used around the

world now again so here we are four

years later um and and there was two

Sparks right so we had B and then we had

Bitcoin and maybe they helped each other

right the Synergy between that um uh

it's gone from the most dangerous

country in the world I guess now to the

safest country in the world which is

safest in the in the Americas in the

Americas okay so not like Luxembourg for

example but in the Americas okay um so

that's a big shift um bu's done a lot

I've seen him announcing like really

trying to recruit people like giving

passports out to philosophers and

thought leaders things like that I've

heard a lot of uh investment capital is

flowing in businesses are flowing in

um I think around elante around Bitcoin

beach the real estate has gone crazy

through the roof uh how much have you

really seen that I mean is that really

noticeable is that a big deal um or is

it just still that hope in the air no

it's definitely a big deal I mean the

you know 10 years ago the the

unemployment was off the charts it was

very hard for people to find work now

the biggest complaint I hear from people

as like we can't find any construction

workers we can't find any restaurant

workers like people are moving their

their way up the the food chain to jobs

that that pay more which those are great

problems to have and so you see

construction booming everywhere I mean

it's it seems like every other lot is a

construction site now and is that just

concentrated in that area though or not

just not just you know elante of course

there's a ton of stuff happening there

and and the prices have gone gone off

the charts but even the rest of you know

that pushes people out as it becomes too

expensive there people move you know up

the coast or down the coast the capital

city is booming now you see all these

countries or these companies kind of

pouring in they're looking for they're

driving the the price of talent up

because there's there's limited talent

in the country and so the education

system now is needing to catch up and to

produce the type of workers that all

these companies are looking for and so

it's it it can be a little

um it can be a little halfhazard at

times like you know companies come in

and they're like oh we can't find the

workers we need and then they but they

these things tend to solve them eles

then the schools step in and start

producing the workers that they need and

so it's it's a messy process but you see

the country just just continuing to to

build up and it's such a small country

it's a tiny country so it's kind of like

a very thinly traded stock a thinly

traded stock moves a really fast even

like Bitcoin when it was small um and so

so El Salvador is a very small country

and so uh you can really swing the

balance of employment or or things like

that pretty quickly um now Mike one

thing one thing that I think can talk

about quite often is that

I feel like this worldview and

unfortunately I see it in the Bitcoin

community and I see it across the world

overall in the United States I should

say um that there's not really this

Spirit of like helping other people and

and when I say that not like holding a

door open for people but like donating

money or time to go help other people

and I feel that that sets people's

worldview so for example I was on a

plane with somebody not that long ago

and you know we having this debate we're

um sitting next to each other and and uh

he telling me that you know he thinks

that the government should continue to

tax people so they continue to fund all

these programs and I'm saying we don't

need the government to take care of

those people we take people take care of

these people and he didn't see that and

then I just asked him this question and

it was kind of personal question I said

you don't have to answer this question

but I'm just curious how much of your

money we're in first class so he's he's

a good he's doing good business how much

of your money do you donate to good

causes or people and he's I said you

don't have to tell me that but he's like

none and I was like do you think that

could change your worldview right like

and so like we're out there helping

you're you were down there helping even

before Bitcoin I'm curious your opinion

on that and and people's worldview and

and and being reflective of their

actions no I think and and you see this

not to make it too political but you do

see it a lot of times it is politically

aligned like people that are more on the

left they view that as the the

government should be taking care of

people and there's been lots of studies

they tend to give much less less to

charity and to be less generous and to

do less stuff on their own where people

that are tend to be more on the right or

more libertarian view it is like hey

this is my responsibility not the

government's and I'm going to do it much

more efficiently and so I'm going to

give of my own time and my own money and

so I I think that for a lot of people

it's they feel like they can kind of

check that box just by voting for

somebody that says they want to give

money to the poor like they can get it

off their their conscience like okay

I've done my deed by voting for the

person that's going to increase taxes of

course they hope it's not on them then

they're going to billion they're going

to find ways to get around it and so

even even the the billionaires that you

hear that like oh no we should raise

taxes they're still employing an army of

people to make sure they're not

subjected to those increases in taxes

and so I think that um yeah I think that

that's something that's really important

and I think that's something we need to

speak openly about that like hey if you

really care for somebody

you should be the one that's out there

doing it making those sacrifices and I

remember even even when it comes to

immigration thing you see people that

are that are talking about like hey we

need to help the immigrants we need it's

like well how many people do you have in

your home right what have you done

personally how are you becoming involved

like the government should do that like

yeah but what about um you know a

nonprofit that I was working with our

slogan was happy people help others and

so I think any parent recognizes that

that some really the greatest joy you

can have is by giving other people joy

and so um maybe there's sort of the

chicken or the egg almost in a sense

where like maybe if they went and helped

other people then they would get the joy

and realize wow that was actually better

and when you rely on the state you short

circuit that whole thing right because

like if I help you I feel really good

about that but you also feel really good

like wow this guy helped me that's

amazing so now both of us get the

benefit of that but if the government

steals my money from me I'm angry and

they give it to you and now you feel

entitled Y and so then you take this

experience that both people could

benefit from and now both people are

angry

about 100% I mean you you fit the the

nail on the head I mean that is exactly

the the problem that we face now and you

take you take that that connection that

human connection away where when people

are receiving money from the government

like you said they become entitled and

they become embittered like wait I

should be getting more this isn't fair

but but when they see that connection

that somebody's actually sacrificing

their hard work to help them it becomes

more real and it they see that they have

to have a personal responsibility to to

respond to that and to try to improve

themselves and so that's what I really

think that that we need to get back to

and that's why I'm so hopeful about the

people in the Bitcoin space as their

resources increase that they can have a

broader impact and go out and I think we

need to challenge people because the the

one issue I see and I see with a lot of

bitcoiners and they have this plan that

down the road in 20 years when their

bitcoin's worth you know $20 million a

coin or something then they're going to

do something it's like no you're missing

all this time in between think of all

the lives that you can impact you can't

go back in time and change those

people's lives and so I think regardless

of the price of Bitcoin we should be

using our personal resources right now

yeah whatever you have your time your

effort your energy your focus you know

whatever it is I mean we all have

something to give even if it's not money

uh we've all been given gifts um and uh

so we'll just announce it here um you

know I tried to come down and help the

community a couple years ago and it fell

through unfortunately uh but I am

planning a trip to go down there and do

some serving opportunities just directly

into the community um we'll bring a a

small amount of people with us if you're

interested in getting down to the

Community Learning about that learning

about what's going on bitcoin but more

importantly giving back to the community

um we'll put a link down in the

description down below if you want to

fill out that form it's going to be a

small group uh we'll be doing trips down

there to El Salvador if you want to come

hang out with us uh let me know in there

um but uh you know again I I mentioned

earlier I know you worked you know some

stuff in Peru and you and I think

there's Argentina and you're starting to

see this pop up all over the place so

maybe just kind of wrap this up but

maybe just

uh what would your advice be to people

who are inspired by this and would like

to go affect change I'd say you really

got to show up and put some some boots

on the ground and understand you know a

lot of people think they you know

understand the situation but you got got

to really be there and and see it and

really feel it and then then you'll

understand how you can best use your

resources whether those or financial

resources or skills you have or or

relationships a lot of times just being

able to connect people yeah and so

that's why I always tell people like

come down to El Salvador see what's

happening there judge for yourself and

see what part you can play yeah and

where can they follow along uh Bitcoin

Beach on Twitter what what what where

can they see what's going on and kind of

check that out yeah follow us on Bitcoin

Beach on Twitter uh we also have a

podcast YouTube uh live from Bitcoin

Beach we do uh you know we working

interviewing different bitcoiners that

are coming through El Salvador but also

once a week we do a Twitter spaces that

we WE Post there that um kind of focuses

and highlights one of these circular

Bitcoin economies that we're working

with around the world so uh this uh you

know whether it's Bitcoin acasi in South

Africa or last week we were talking with

the folks in Uganda that are working

with a an orphanage there and start

starting a circular Bitcoin economy

there we try to highlight these

different things so that's another way

people can become connected with

projects they can become involved with

great all right well that we'll Sig it

off thanks so much Mike thanks Mark