Dave Smith Breaks Down the Reasons Russia Invaded Ukraine
Summary
TLDRThe Joe Rogan Experience discusses the critical importance of avoiding war between the US and Russia, highlighting the potential for nuclear conflict. The conversation touches on the complexities of the Ukraine situation, including past US involvement, the 2014 coup, and the role of NATO expansion. It also addresses the narrative surrounding Putin's actions, questioning the 'unprovoked' label and emphasizing the need for understanding historical context to prevent further escalation.
Takeaways
- 🚨 The potential for a nuclear conflict between the United States and Russia is considered a top priority for global security.
- 🌎 There is a perception that the U.S. has been influencing the situation in Ukraine, potentially advising against negotiations with Russia.
- 🤔 The official narrative of Russia's actions in Ukraine is questioned, with claims that it is not an unprovoked war.
- 📜 Historical context is emphasized as crucial for understanding the current conflict, including NATO's expansion and promises made to Russia post-Soviet Union.
- 🏰 The 2014 coup in Ukraine, which was allegedly led by Western powers, is highlighted as a significant event leading to the current tensions.
- 💸 The involvement of U.S. political figures, such as Joe Biden and his son Hunter Biden, in Ukrainian affairs is mentioned as part of the complex backdrop.
- 🗳️ The Donbass region's desire for autonomy and its majority ethnic Russian population's sentiment towards Russia is noted.
- 🔥 The script suggests that there is a disconnect between the motivations attributed to Russia's actions by Western media and what Russian leadership has stated.
- 🔄 The script calls for listening to and understanding the perspectives of adversaries to inform a more accurate and comprehensive view of conflicts.
Q & A
What is the main concern expressed in the transcript about the situation between the United States and Russia?
-The main concern expressed is the risk of a nuclear conflict between the United States and Russia, which is considered the most important priority in human history, as it could lead to the destruction of the human species.
What is the reported initial deal between Russia and Ukraine that was allegedly discouraged by the United States?
-The initial deal reportedly involved Russia pulling back its troops from Ukraine on the condition that Ukraine guaranteed autonomy for the Donbass region and agreed never to join NATO.
How does the transcript describe the official narrative about Vladimir Putin's intentions in Ukraine?
-The transcript describes the official narrative as portraying Vladimir Putin as a madman and a war criminal who is bent on reforming the Soviet Union and poses a threat to Europe, despite his military setbacks in Ukraine.
What historical promise regarding NATO expansion is mentioned in the transcript?
-The transcript mentions a promise made when the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991 that NATO would not expand eastward, but it has been expanded multiple times since then.
What role does the transcript suggest the United States played in the 2014 coup in Ukraine?
-The transcript suggests that the United States played a leading role in the 2014 coup in Ukraine, which resulted in the overthrow of a pro-Russian government and the installation of a pro-Western government.
What is the significance of the Donbass region in the context of the conflict mentioned in the transcript?
-The Donbass region is significant because it has a majority ethnic Russian population that has been in conflict with the Western portion of Ukraine since the 2014 coup, and it has expressed a desire to be part of Russia.
How does the transcript characterize the involvement of the United States in the situation with Ukraine?
-The transcript characterizes the United States' involvement as a series of interventions, including the 2014 coup, the provision of weapons, and the installation of a pro-Western government, which contributed to the escalation of the conflict.
What are the two recent events involving Ukraine that are mentioned as having a connection to the current conflict?
-The two recent events mentioned are the impeachment of the last U.S. president over an issue involving Ukraine, and the current president's son being paid millions of dollars from a Ukrainian company, Burisma.
What does the transcript suggest about the importance of understanding the history of the conflict between the United States and Russia?
-The transcript suggests that understanding the history of the conflict is crucial for comprehending the current situation and determining the best course of action to avoid further escalation and the risk of nuclear war.
How does the transcript discuss the role of media and narratives in shaping public understanding of the conflict?
-The transcript discusses the role of media and narratives by criticizing the official narrative as misleading and incomplete, and by highlighting the importance of listening to the actual statements of figures like Vladimir Putin to understand their motivations.
Outlines
🌍 Geopolitical Tensions: US-Russia Relations and the Ukraine Crisis
The paragraph discusses the critical nature of the US-Russia relationship, particularly in the context of the Ukraine conflict. It emphasizes the importance of avoiding war between the two nuclear powers, as it could lead to catastrophic consequences for humanity. The speaker suggests that there was a missed opportunity for negotiation early in the conflict, with reports indicating that the US advised Ukraine against a potential peace deal. The paragraph also critiques the official narrative that portrays Putin as irrational and solely aggressive, while downplaying the provocations and historical context that led to the conflict. It touches on the expansion of NATO and the 2014 coup in Ukraine, suggesting that these events are significant in understanding the current situation.
🎭 Media Narratives and Historical Context in Ukraine's Conflict
This paragraph delves into the media's portrayal of the Ukraine conflict, highlighting the perceived bias and lack of historical context in mainstream reporting. It references an interview where a foreign affairs editor discusses the strategic importance of Ukraine to both Russia and the West. The speaker argues that the West's involvement in the 2014 coup and subsequent support for a pro-Western government in Ukraine is a significant factor in the current tensions. The paragraph also discusses the role of non-governmental organizations and US policy in shaping the political landscape of Ukraine, suggesting that external influences have played a substantial part in the unfolding crisis.
🔥 The Complexities of the Ukraine Crisis: Historical Antecedents and Current Implications
The final paragraph explores the intricate background of the Ukraine crisis, connecting recent events to historical actions and decisions. It mentions the impeachment of a former US president over Ukraine-related issues and the involvement of the current president's son with a Ukrainian energy company, suggesting a complex web of political and economic interests. The paragraph also discusses the ethnic tensions in the Donbass region and the historical ties between Ukraine and Russia. It concludes by reiterating the importance of understanding the full context of the conflict to avoid a potentially disastrous nuclear confrontation between the US and Russia.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Nuclear conflict
💡NATO
💡Donbass region
💡Coup
💡Provocation
💡Autonomy
💡Boris Johnson
💡Osama Bin Laden
💡Unprovoked War
💡Vladimir Putin
Highlights
The discussion emphasizes the extreme importance of avoiding war between the U.S. and Russia, given the catastrophic potential of nuclear conflict.
Reports suggest that the U.S. advised Ukraine against negotiating with Russia early in the conflict, potentially missing a chance for peace.
A proposed deal between Russia and Ukraine involved troop withdrawal and autonomy for the Donbass region in exchange for Ukraine not joining NATO.
The official narrative portrays Putin as irrational and a threat to Europe, despite Russia's struggles in the Ukraine conflict.
Transcripts
The Joe Rogan Experience dude this thing
with Russia is just like the craziest
thing in the world like the idea that
we're actually
flirting with a nuclear conflict with
Russia is the most important priority in
the history of humanity is that America
and Russia do not go to war there's
nothing more important than that that's
that's it we'll destroy the the human
species if we do this and yet there's
this war right on Russia's border and
there's no effort to negotiate going on
there's like no effort in fact from from
very uh solid reporting that actually
America threw Boris Johnson and and told
Ukraine not to negotiate with Russia at
the very beginning of the war when they
had a deal worked out they had a they
had a deal worked out that's been
reported in multiple sources that they
had a deal worked out and the deal was
basically that Vladimir Putin would pull
back he would pull back his troops and
leave Ukraine under the condition that
the very simple conditions that Ukraine
uh uh guaranteed um autonomy for the
donbass region and agreed to never join
NATO and like that was a deal like okay
I'm not saying everyone thinks that's
the perfect deal but it's better than
what we we got right now out of the
nuclear war and right now just the other
day dude the official narrative on this
this whole War it's just like it makes
no sense and again like I said Remember
the same people who are pushing this are
the ones who are telling you Saddam
Hussein had weapons of mass destruction
stuff but the official narrative Joe is
basically that um okay so uh uh Vladimir
Putin is a a Madman a crazy war criminal
who's hell-bent on um reforming the
Soviet Union and this is a real threat
that he could do this but also he's he's
getting humiliated in this war in
Ukraine it's like he's losing the
poorest country in Europe and he's just
getting humiliated and beat back but
he's still a real threat to take over
all of Europe and he's a complete madman
by the way Joe but when he says he's
going to use nuclear weapons don't
listen to that he'd never actually do
that even though he's a complete madman
and as everyone says this this war the
word they use over and over and over
again Joe Biden Kamala Harris Hillary
Clinton all of them unprovoked Vladimir
Putin LED an unprovoked War in Ukraine
but then it's just like with Osama Bin
Laden what they did with him then don't
listen to him whatever you do don't
listen to what he's actually saying
because none of that's his motivations
like what his motivations are what we
tell you Osama Bin Laden hates us uh
because we're free
and then like Ron Paul would just go
like yeah but that's not what he's
saying at all like oh he Osama Bin Laden
was so clear about why he hated America
and he's like look I hate you because
you murder innocent civilians in the
Muslim world you prop up brutal
dictators in the Muslim world you prop
up Israel who mistreats the Palestinian
people and you have your uh your bases
and our Holy Land in the Arabian
Peninsula and then they're like nah he
hates us because we're free look he
didn't mention anything about Freedom
there and then if you say that they're
like well are you defending Osama Bin
Laden and you're like no I'm just saying
listen to your enemies there's a reason
why he hates us and if you listen to
Vladimir Putin and what he's saying I
mean look he's wrong for invading uh
Ukraine and I mean you know me Joe I'm
the most anti-war [ __ ] [ __ ] person
there is and there's no excuse for that
like tens of thousands of people have
died it's horrible and a lot of them are
soldiers but a lot of them are civilians
and um but to say he was unprovoked is
like insane it's just only people who
know nothing about the history of this
conflict would say there was no
provocation did you see the conversation
that Roger Waters had with that CNN guy
she had right because Roger Waters was
awesome on that because he knows what
he's talking about dude and he's right
about all of that [ __ ] he's look the the
prom and this is what he was saying he's
absolutely right is that the promise
when the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991
and this was like verbally promised and
put in writing was that NATO would not
expand one inch to the East and NATO at
that point the line then was through
Germany right like the the Western half
of Germany was in the west and the
eastern half was with the Soviet Union
and they were like we'll let all of
these nations you know secede and the
Soviet Union will collapse and we're
giving up on communism it's one of the
greatest things that ever happened and
the deal was okay you do that then we
won't move NATO we won't move our
military Alliance into your area that
used to be your realm of influence and
every single president since then has
moved NATO East to the point that NATO
is now on Russia's border and in Ukraine
even though they didn't officially join
there was always talk of it Kamala
Harris very right before the start of
the war said we're looking to put
Ukraine into NATO and the the um you
know they they put under George W bush
they put in um in uh Poland these dual
use rocket launchers there's a big
complaint that Vladimir Putin has that
he's like these law these can be used to
get nukes here in a matter of minutes
like this is a this is like a threat to
us that we cannot tolerate then in 2014
there was a coup in Ukraine that was
completely led by the West I don't know
if you've ever heard but like uh like I
think I sent you actually once the uh
the tape of Gideon Rose who was the
editor for foreign affairs magazine on
the old Stephen Colbert Report uh show
back when Colbert was hilarious and he
was just openly bragging about what the
game is here and then he was like well
Ukraine is kind of like the robin to
Russia's Batman and so our job is to
steal Robin away from Batman and make
him come over here and join us and aha
Vladimir Putin's so stupid that he won't
do anything then Colbert's in his old
character so he's like well shouldn't
Obama be spiking the football and saying
yeah in your face Putin and Gideon Rose
is like well no no because then Putin
might invade Ukraine so we wouldn't want
to spike the ball but they there there's
these oh yeah let's play it let's play
it go from the beginning yeah play it
from the beginning
there's the magazine foreign affairs
no no no now Gideon uh help me out here
we've gotta we've got a battle the
Ukraine some of them want to go into the
EU the European Union right uh and some
of them want to stay with Russia if the
Ukraine's not in Europe right now what
continent is it on well it's part of
Eurasia but it's part of Eastern Europe
and the former Soviet Bloc it's
basically Robin to Russia's Batman and
The Challenge here the challenge here is
to try to attract it to the west to get
it to flip sides so the rebels in the
streets what are they fighting for
they're fighting for a better future
countries have a development sounds like
a political speech no but it's actually
really countries have to develop over
time and Ukraine basically after the end
of the Soviet Union faced two tracks it
could stay as sort of stagnant corrupt
authoritarian country tied to Russia or
it could essentially join the West it
could modernize liberalize become a
democracy uh at the last minute when it
looked like it was going to trade up
from its sort of uh abusive relationship
with its boyfriend from the hood to a
nice Yuppie you're not loading these
choices in any way whatsoever it's
actually true when it looked like it was
going to trade up to a better
environment at the last minute Putin
offered a bribe how much 15 billion uh
that's a lot of cash it's a lot of cash
and the president who himself was tied
to the old Elites and the eastern part
of the country ties to Russia decided to
back off the change and go you know how
many pirate themed restaurants you can
buy with 15 billion dollars the problem
was the western parts of the country and
the younger parts of the country and the
more modern liberal parts of the country
basically knew that they had no future
being Russia's Russia's vassal do we so
they took to the streets is America
taking sides in this in any way if these
people the rebels are winning right now
right yes just recently why isn't Obama
spiking the ball in the end zone and
calling Putin and saying hey you might
have won the medal count but we won the
country count [ __ ]
it's actually a very good question and
the answer is that we don't want want
Russia to intervene and kick over the
table like a game of Risk and take
Ukraine back and so they do that could
he send in troops yes he could so we are
choosing so does Ukraine have any troops
of their own would they fight back yes
but we don't want this to escalate and
we don't want Russia to crack down so we
want to basically distract Russia oh
look you have the highest medal count oh
you did really well uh
and you know there's a shiny object an
entire country away from you
holy [ __ ] now isn't that funny right now
there's a power vacuum the opposition is
all together which everybody it's easy
to agree on getting rid of the bad old
regime and much harder to create a
stable country in which everybody
compromises and moves forward they need
a strong leader to move the country
forward do you know who's always good at
A Moment Like That
Vladimir Putin do you think he might
volunteer to come in and and and help
Ukraine the reason we don't want we
don't want we don't want Putin to get
involved in this and so we are basically
we want to try and involve him in this
decision so that he allows Ukraine to go
we actually want to not we want to say
we want a non-exclusive relationship
with Ukraine you could have a
relationship with it too you're the only
one making this into a girlfriend
boyfriend relationship Ukraine is
basically choosing its future between
two completely different courses of
action and we're trying to blur that
choice so the old boyfriend doesn't get
too upset for Christ so so it's just all
these George Soros funded ngos were
funding the the militias on the ground
who were overthrowing the government and
then there's a tape of Victoria Newland
who's who's uh was at the state
department at the time one of the top
people at the state department and she
was basically talking about who would be
the new government that took over who
America didn't want in who we did want
in the new government so it's not you
know what happened basically was as
Gideon Rose was even saying the
Ukrainian government was kind of of
siding with Russia or at least a lot
more pro-russia and then we overthrew
that government and installed the pro
America government and this to Putin he
had said over and over again was a huge
red line for him like Ukraine was the
big line and you could look imagine take
it from our point of view if like Russia
was coming over here and overthrowing
the pro-america government in Montreal
and installing a pro-russia government
there and you know like this would be
seen as would you call that an
unprovoked attack you know if we were to
go in there and then go overthrow that
government so again I'm not justifying
what he's doing but and then the other
thing to this right that's important ad
is like you remember the two big things
that it's so weird no one like at least
in the in the larger conversation I
don't see anyone connecting these things
is that there's two things like
involving Ukraine that they were very
big that happened very recently in
American history that very much connect
to this war and one is that our last
president was impeached over a thing
with Ukraine and like what was that and
then the other thing is uh the current
president's son was getting paid
millions of dollars from a company
barisma in Ukraine and these things all
connect and basically what happened was
after the 2014 coup this company barisma
they were and by the way uh Matt taibi
has done incredible reporting on this I
highly recommend everyone read his stuff
uh his sub Stacks incredible fantastic
unbelievable but so basically barismo
was in bed with the old government that
had allied with Russia and so when this
government was overthrown they were very
worried because they were like oh we
were in bed with the old government and
now there's this new government who's in
there and so instead of bribing the new
government
they just went right to the source
and bribed the son of the sitting Vice
President Joe Biden when he was vice
president was in charge of Ukraine
policy oh my God so they just went that
was why they put him there and then they
put some other like CIA guy or something
like that on their board they're just
paying him money to just be like hey
keep us in with you and then Trump was
telling them to investigate all of this
[ __ ] he got on the phone with them and
was like I want to investigate
everything that was going on with Joe
and Hunter Biden in Ukraine and Donald
Trump did he got into an area that it
was there's an argument it was not okay
what he was doing because he was kind of
going like maybe you don't get this
these uh these weapons that I was going
to send in unless you go investigate
them and this was his political opponent
so it was a little bit of a shady thing
but then the other story about that is
that ultimately Trump caved and he sent
in the weapons to Ukraine so now not
only did Obama overthrow the regime when
Joe Biden was the point man Joe Biden
was running Ukraine policy Obama leads
this coup over the throws that
government and puts in a pro-western
government then Trump comes in sends in
a whole bunch of weapons to this new
government that Obama wouldn't even send
in because he was concerned it would
provoke uh Russia and then the next
president is Joe Biden the last guy who
was the point man on Ukraine who who was
there when this coup happened then he
comes back in this is all like the
context that led to Vladimir Putin
invading Ukraine so again I'm not saying
and the other little thing I should
mention there too is that that Don bass
region on the Eastern portion of Ukraine
is like majority ethnic Russians and
they got really pissed off at when the
new government came in in 2014 and they
were basically warring with uh with the
the you know the Kiev Western portion of
Ukraine since then and they had a
referendum in 2015 and voted
overwhelmingly that they wanted to be a
part of Russia and Vladimir Putin didn't
take them but they said they voted that
they wanted to be uh part of Russia not
a part of Ukraine so it's just a very
complicated mess and it's the same thing
with like the war on terrorism if you're
gonna tell this story of like what led
to this to understand where to go from
here the story has to include that
America was intervening in the Middle
East for decades before 9 11. the story
can't just start at 9 11. you know what
I mean and so I guess the the biggest
part is what I said before that the
concern of all of us should be just that
there's no nuclear conflict between
America and Russia which seems like
we're like dangerously close to
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