The REAL Cause of Insulin Resistance - It’s NOT Too Many Carbohydrates | Dr. Paul Saladino
Summary
TLDRIn this insightful discussion, Dr. Paul Saladino shares his journey through various dietary approaches, from a strict carnivore diet to an animal-based diet incorporating carbohydrates like fruits and honey. He delves into the nuances of insulin resistance, the importance of quality animal products, and the impact of diet on health and performance. Saladino also explores the role of gut health, the benefits of raw dairy, and his personal transition to living in Costa Rica, emphasizing the significance of a joyful lifestyle in achieving overall well-being.
Takeaways
- 🥩 The carnivore diet, which consists strictly of animal-based foods, initially helped Paul improve his eczema and asthma but later caused electrolyte issues.
- 🍯 After incorporating honey and fruit into his diet, Paul experienced improvements in muscle cramping, heart palpitations, and testosterone levels, suggesting that insulin spikes post-meal are essential for mineral and electrolyte balance.
- 🚫 Paul's dietary changes have been met with criticism from the carnivore, ketogenic, and vegan communities, reflecting the controversy and polarization in nutritional debates.
- 🥦 Contrary to popular belief, there is little evidence to suggest that carbohydrates cause insulin resistance; instead, the quality and type of fats consumed may play a more significant role.
- 🌾 Modern diets high in linoleic acid, found in seed oils and corn/soy-fed animals, may contribute to insulin resistance and metabolic dysfunction due to cellular membrane and mitochondrial disruptions.
- 🥦 Paul emphasizes the importance of considering not just what animals eat but also their natural diet and the impact of their feed on the nutrient profile of the food they produce.
- 🧂 The choice of cooking oil matters; olive and avocado oils, while popular, are high in linoleic acid and can be problematic when oxidized, which is common in cooking.
- 🍓 Raw dairy products, such as milk and cheese, may offer health benefits, including improved gut health and reduced allergic reactions, compared to pasteurized dairy.
- 💊 Supplements like colostrum can be beneficial, containing immunologically active substances that may enhance cognitive function and extend lifespan.
- 🏋️♂️ Physical activity plays a significant role in how the body processes nutrients, with higher activity levels potentially benefiting from increased carbohydrate intake.
- 🌞 Lifestyle factors, including sun exposure, community, and outdoor activities, contribute to overall health and well-being, reflecting the importance of balance in diet and life.
Q & A
What dietary changes did Paul Saladino make, and why?
-Paul Saladino transitioned from a carnivore diet to incorporating more carbohydrates, specifically fruit and honey, after experiencing electrolyte issues from long-term ketosis. He found that adding these elements improved his overall health, including muscle cramps, heart palpitations, and testosterone levels.
How did the carnivore and ketogenic communities react to Paul Saladino's dietary changes?
-Both the carnivore and ketogenic communities were displeased with Paul Saladino's pivot towards including carbohydrates in his diet, as it contradicted their core beliefs about diet and health.
What is Paul Saladino's stance on the role of carbohydrates in insulin resistance?
-Paul Saladino believes there is essentially zero evidence that carbohydrates cause insulin resistance. Instead, he suggests that other factors, such as the consumption of seed oils high in linoleic acid, may contribute to metabolic dysfunction and insulin resistance.
What was the impact of adding carbohydrates back to Paul Saladino's diet?
-After adding carbohydrates in the form of fruit and honey, Paul Saladino experienced improvements in muscle cramps, heart palpitations, and his testosterone levels returned to normal. His blood work also showed lower fasting insulin, lower fasting blood glucose, and a lower hemoglobin A1c level.
How does Paul Saladino view the role of insulin in human health?
-Paul Saladino considers insulin to be valuable in humans, with its postprandial spike being essential for health as it signals the kidneys to retain minerals and electrolytes, thus preventing their waste.
What is the 'rice diet' mentioned by Paul Saladino, and what was its observed effect on health?
-The 'rice diet' refers to a high-carb, low-fat, and low-protein diet primarily consisting of white sugar and rice, as studied by physician Walter Kempner. It was observed to improve health conditions like diabetes and obesity in his patients, suggesting that even a diet high in carbohydrates can have health benefits.
What is Paul Saladino's perspective on the use of mouthwash before working out?
-Paul Saladino advises against using mouthwash before working out because it can kill nitric oxide-producing bacteria in the mouth, which may lead to decreased muscle gains and reduced workout benefits.
Why did Paul Saladino move to Costa Rica?
-Paul Saladino moved to Costa Rica to pursue a lifestyle that included more flow states, such as surfing, which he felt was missing in his life in Austin, Texas. He found that engaging in activities he was passionate about improved his overall productivity and well-being.
What are some of the challenges Paul Saladino faced when he first moved to Costa Rica?
-Some challenges Paul Saladino faced included dealing with utilities and infrastructure that were less reliable than in the United States, such as power and internet outages, as well as navigating the process of setting up and maintaining a household in a new country.
How does Paul Saladino describe his daily routine in Costa Rica?
-Paul Saladino's daily routine in Costa Rica typically involves waking up with the sunrise, surfing in the morning, having a breakfast consisting of fresh orange juice, local fruit, grass-fed meat, and raw milk, followed by work sessions and possibly an afternoon workout or another surf. He also enjoys the community and camaraderie that comes with living in a small coastal town.
What are Paul Saladino's thoughts on the role of fats in meat and its impact on taste and health?
-Paul Saladino believes that the fat content in meat is crucial for both taste and health. He suggests that meat without sufficient fat can become boring and less satisfying, and he advocates for choosing ground beef with higher fat content, such as 80% lean (20% fat), for a more enjoyable eating experience.
What is Paul Saladino's view on the use of body care products?
-Paul Saladino prefers to use minimal body care products and opts for natural alternatives when possible. For example, he uses white vinegar for laundry and baking soda for dishes. He avoids products with fragrances and synthetic chemicals, and he does not use soap on his body, toothpaste, or shampoo, believing that a simple rinse with water is sufficient.
What dietary advice does Paul Saladino give for those considering an animal-based diet?
-Paul Saladino advises people considering an animal-based diet to ensure they are consuming enough carbohydrates, as many people tend to eat too few carbs and return to a low-carb or ketogenic state, which can cause issues. He suggests that even moderate activity requires more carbohydrates than people might think.
How does Paul Saladino approach skincare?
-Paul Saladino takes a minimalist approach to skincare, believing that what you eat is more important than what you put on your skin. He does not use soap on his face and suggests that acne may be related to diet rather than cleanliness. He is developing a product called a 'Tallow face bomb' for skin care, indicating his preference for natural animal fats.
What are Paul Saladino's thoughts on the use of fluoride in toothpaste?
-Paul Saladino is not a fan of fluoride and considers it harmful. He believes that tooth health is more about fat-soluble vitamins and a healthy diet rather than the use of fluoride in toothpaste.
What is Paul Saladino's perspective on the importance of community?
-Paul Saladino values community and finds that living in Costa Rica has allowed him to build connections with like-minded individuals. He believes that community is an important aspect of life and contributes to his overall well-being.
What are Paul Saladino's dietary recommendations for someone who is insulin resistant?
-Paul Saladino suggests that while a low-carb diet can be beneficial for some people when they are insulin resistant, it is not the carbohydrates themselves that cause insulin resistance. He believes that metabolic health can be improved without completely removing carbohydrates from the diet, and that focusing on reducing linoleic acid intake might be more beneficial.
How does Paul Saladino feel about the role of fats in our diet?
-Paul Saladino emphasizes the importance of consuming healthy fats, particularly from animal sources like meat, organs, and dairy. He believes that these fats are crucial for health and that they should not be feared.
What does Paul Saladino think about the consumption of fish in the current context?
-Paul Saladino is cautious about consuming fish due to concerns about heavy metals, microplastics, and other pollutants. He does not recommend making fish a major part of one's diet without being mindful of these potential contaminants.
How does Paul Saladino view the role of fructose in our diet?
-While the transcript does not directly address fructose, Paul Saladino's general approach to diet suggests that he would advocate for consuming fructose in its natural form, such as in whole fruits, rather than in processed forms like high-fructose corn syrup.
What are Paul Saladino's thoughts on the use of supplements?
-Paul Saladino is selective about the supplements he takes, focusing on those that provide nutrients that are difficult to obtain through diet alone, such as grass-fed colostrum. He does not believe in taking a large number of supplements and emphasizes the importance of a nutrient-dense diet.
Outlines
🥩 Diet Controversy and Personal Dietary Evolution
The speaker discusses the controversy surrounding different diets, particularly the carnivore diet, and his personal journey from being a carnivore advocate to incorporating more carbohydrates like honey and fruit into his diet. He explains how his initial adoption of the carnivore diet was due to health issues like eczema, which improved with the diet. However, he later experienced electrolyte imbalances and other health issues related to long-term ketosis, leading to his dietary changes.
🍏 Rethinking Carbohydrates and Insulin Resistance
The speaker challenges the common belief that carbohydrates cause insulin resistance. He shares his experience of reintroducing carbohydrates into his diet, which improved his health markers and overall well-being. He also addresses the idea that insulin itself is harmful, explaining that post-meal insulin spikes are essential for human health, helping the kidneys retain minerals and electrolytes. His blood work shows improvements in fasting insulin, blood glucose, and hemoglobin A1c levels after reintroducing carbs.
🚫 The Misconception of Carbohydrates Causing Insulin Resistance
The speaker refutes the idea that carbohydrates are responsible for insulin resistance. He explains that while a low-carb diet can be beneficial for those with broken metabolic machinery, it is not the carbohydrates themselves that cause the issue. The speaker suggests that the real problem lies in the consumption of omega-6 seed oils, which he believes contribute to insulin resistance and other health issues.
🌾 The Impact of Seed Oils on Insulin Resistance
The speaker delves into the impact of seed oils, particularly linoleic acid, on insulin resistance. He discusses the historical context of seed oils in human diets and how their overconsumption has led to an imbalance. He also touches on the potential cellular-level issues caused by the accumulation of linoleic acid in cell membranes and mitochondria, suggesting that this accumulation may contribute to metabolic dysfunction.
🧬 Cellular Membranes and Metabolic Health
The speaker explores the role of cellular membranes in metabolic health, focusing on how the composition of these membranes can affect insulin resistance. He discusses the importance of the balance of fats in the diet and how an overabundance of linoleic acid, found in seed oils, can lead to metabolic issues. The speaker also mentions the potential benefits of a low-fat diet in mobilizing polyunsaturated fats and the need for a balanced approach to macronutrient intake.
🍽️ Diet and Lifestyle Adjustments for Optimal Health
The speaker discusses the importance of dietary and lifestyle adjustments for achieving optimal health. He talks about his experience with reintroducing carbohydrates and the benefits he has noticed, such as improved muscle function and testosterone levels. He also addresses the controversy surrounding his dietary changes, as they go against popular trends in the carnivore and ketogenic communities.
🥑 The Problem with Avocado and Olive Oils
The speaker highlights issues with avocado and olive oils, which are often considered healthy but can be problematic due to their high linoleic acid content. He discusses the potential for these oils to be adulterated with seed oils and their susceptibility to oxidation, which can lead to health issues. The speaker suggests that consuming these oils may not be ideal for those seeking to improve their metabolic health.
🥩 The Importance of Animal Feed on Meat Quality
The speaker emphasizes the importance of what animals are fed and how it affects the quality and nutrient profile of the meat we consume. He discusses the benefits of grass-fed, grass-finished beef, which has lower levels of pesticides and toxins and higher levels of nutrients compared to corn-fed beef. The speaker also touches on the challenges of finding high-quality meat sources.
🍓 Incorporating Fruit and Honey into the Diet
The speaker talks about his decision to include fruit and honey in his diet, highlighting their benefits in providing carbohydrates and improving health outcomes. He discusses the importance of consuming a variety of plant foods, including fruits, and the potential for honey to improve insulin sensitivity and contribute to a healthy diet.
🏞️ Moving to Costa Rica for a Healthier Lifestyle
The speaker shares his personal story of moving to Costa Rica for a healthier lifestyle, focusing on the pursuit of flow states through activities like surfing. He discusses the benefits of living near the equator, the importance of community, and how his new environment has positively impacted his mental and physical well-being.
🌞 Embracing Sun, Surf, and a Simpler Life
The speaker describes his daily routine in Costa Rica, which involves waking up with the sunrise, surfing, and maintaining a simple diet with a focus on animal-based foods and seasonal fruits. He emphasizes the importance of enjoying a variety of natural foods and the benefits of an active, outdoor lifestyle.
🥩 Ground Beef and the Importance of Fat in the Diet
The speaker discusses his preference for ground beef in his diet, highlighting the importance of fat content for flavor and health. He shares tips for keeping ground beef interesting, such as adding cheese or raw cream, and emphasizes the benefits of animal fats for overall health.
🧼 Natural Alternatives for Body and Home Care
The speaker shares his approach to body and home care, which involves using natural alternatives like white vinegar for laundry and baking soda for dishes. He discusses the importance of avoiding fragrances and synthetic chemicals in personal care products and suggests simple, effective methods for maintaining cleanliness and health.
💑 Future Aspirations of Family and Community
The speaker expresses his aspirations for the future, including getting married and raising a family in Costa Rica. He reflects on the importance of community and the benefits of living a simple, nature-oriented life, and shares his excitement for creating a family environment that aligns with his values.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Carnivore Diet
💡Ketogenic Diet
💡Electrolyte Imbalance
💡Insulin Resistance
💡Linoleic Acid
💡Omega-6 Fatty Acids
💡Mead Acid
💡Adipose Tissue
💡Cardiolipin
💡Fatty Acid Deficiency
💡Dunnigan Familial Lipodystrophy
Highlights
Dr. Paul Saladino's dietary shift from a strict carnivore diet to incorporating carbohydrates, specifically honey and fruit, has improved his health outcomes, including muscle cramps, heart palpitations, and testosterone levels.
Contrary to popular belief, insulin is valuable for human health, and its postprandial spike is essential for the kidneys to retain minerals and electrolytes.
Dr. Saladino experienced electrolyte issues due to long-term ketosis, which were resolved by reintroducing carbohydrates into his diet.
The ketogenic community's belief that insulin is harmful and causes insulin resistance is not supported by evidence, according to Dr. Saladino's research and experience.
Dr. Saladino's personal journey with eczema and asthma led him to explore different diets, resulting in the discovery that a carnivore diet initially improved his conditions.
Linoleic acid, found in high quantities in seed oils, is suggested as a potential cause of insulin resistance and metabolic dysfunction.
Dr. Saladino posits that the accumulation of linoleic acid in cell membranes may lead to mitochondrial dysfunction and contribute to insulin resistance.
The benefits of raw dairy, including its impact on gut health and immune system, are highlighted as a positive addition to Dr. Saladino's diet.
Pasteurized dairy products may cause adverse reactions for some individuals, whereas raw dairy could potentially improve gut flora and reduce allergic reactions.
Dr. Saladino's move to Costa Rica was motivated by a pursuit of a lifestyle that includes more flow states and a deeper connection with nature.
Community and social interaction are integral parts of life in Costa Rica, contributing to Dr. Saladino's overall well-being.
A diverse diet including meat, organs, fruit, honey, and raw dairy provides a comprehensive range of nutrients without the need for supplementation.
Dr. Saladino's daily routine in Costa Rica involves surfing, working, and maintaining an active lifestyle, which supports his health and productivity.
The quality of animal products, particularly grass-fed beef, is emphasized as important for nutrient content and avoiding toxins.
Dr. Saladino's dietary approach focuses on nutrient-dense foods, with an emphasis on the importance of animal fats for health.
The importance of considering an individual's activity level when determining carbohydrate intake is highlighted, with active individuals like Dr. Saladino benefiting from higher carbohydrate consumption.
Dr. Saladino's experience with the Hadza tribe provided insights into the importance of consuming nutrient-rich organs and the potential benefits of raw consumption for certain foods.
Transcripts
the carnivore Community hates me
the ketogenic Community hates me the
vegans don't like what I'm saying you
can give someone a diet of pure white
sugar and rice
and their diabetes gets better you get
less significantly less benefits from
working out if you use mouthwash before
you work out so like you want these
gaflora you want these bacteria in your
mouth that produce nitric oxide you just
want healthy populations there's
essentially zero evidence
that carbohydrates cause insulin
resistance
Paul it's great to have you back on the
show a lot has changed in a few years
since we chatted I'm excited to get into
all those nuances talk about what those
are and why the changes so I want to
start off by talking about the diet
piece this is probably the biggest one
the one that has the most controversy
around it and I'm excited to learn more
about it so you last time we chatted you
were carnivore your carnivore MD on
I saw you recently changed that to Paul
saladino MD
so let's start there and talk about that
pivot yeah I mean I think probably
I was trying to remember exactly when we
talked last but
probably not too long after that I
started incorporating
carbohydrates into my diet so I started
incorporating
sugar
quote unquote from honey and fruit into
my diet and the reason for that was that
so my back story is that maybe four or
five years ago I was in my residency in
Seattle at the University of Washington
and I had really bad eczema and I had
had eczema for many years on and off
trying to figure out what was causing it
and was eating a pretty healthy
quote-unquote diet I was eating salads
olive oil nuts seeds fruit grass-fed
meat maybe a little liver here and there
mushrooms mushroom extracts things like
this and even with that healthy diet
having cut out processed foods I was
still getting eczema flare-ups to the
point that the eczema got really bad
and I thought okay I gotta figure this
out my immune system is still not
healthy even if it's just a skin rash it
means to me there's some sort of chronic
immune activation going on below the
surface and I didn't want that so that
was the beginning of carnivore which was
strictly an animal food diet so animal
meat animal organs animal fat and salt
basically for a year and a half or so
that was really interesting to me
because when you do that
it triggers a whole bunch of people
because in the nutrition space as we
talked about last time people believe
that red meat is one of the maybe
forbidden foods for humans something
that we could maybe eat a little bit of
from time to time or we shouldn't eat at
all if you listen to Harvard
um and that the fat that comes with it
the the saturated fat that comes with it
is not good for humans for a variety of
reasons according to the mainstream
narrative raises your LDL cholesterol
and yet when I did that I felt better
and my Eczema got better
and I thought well this is something to
this and then you find or I found this
community of people many of which had
had similar sort of autoimmune diseases
that got better when they cut certain
foods out of their diet a lot of them
are cutting Foods out that many people
consider to be healthy things like kale
or broccoli or spinach or oatmeal or
beans or lentils or couscous or grains
and there's something interesting here
and as a physician
I'd always been interested in what was
causing illness and what were the big
movers now fast forward my journey a
year and a half
long-term ketosis resulted in some
electrolyte issues for me so this is
part of the interesting Journey right
The Humbling piece of it all
that the eczema gets better the
autoimmune condition gets better really
it was eczema and Asthma this whole
atopic cluster
but then I get all these issues with
ketosis who are presumably related to
ketosis and this is electrolyte
insufficiency leading to muscle cramping
when I'm climbing in a rock gym
palpitations when I'm sleeping trouble
sleeping in general I was waking up with
hypnagogic jerks which are when you fall
asleep and you feel like you're falling
and you weight yourself out of sleep
it's pretty pretty horrible and that's
likely related to a magnesium deficiency
so what I learned in the process was
that
though the ketogenic Community I think
is really well intentioned a lot of the
ideas around it are not fully formed
there's this idea that insulin is bad
for humans and I think the ketogenic
Community leans hard on this idea of
insulin-induced insulin resistance and I
see people this is an idea that really
hasn't gone away there's some pretty
well-known influencers now who are also
still talking about blood sugar spikes
and how you don't want blood sugar
spikes and I think okay this is
interesting because that's exactly what
you don't have on a carnivore diet your
continuous blood glucose monitor is
about as flat as it can be but it leads
to pretty big problems for people so
what I realized leading back to that
point and looking at the literature was
that oh insulin is valuable in humans
and this post-brandial after we eat
insulin spike is essential for human
health because it actually signals to
the kidneys to absorb to hold on to all
of these minerals and electrolytes that
people on low carb diets are just
wasting and that in the ketogenic
Community you see people just taking
massive amounts of electrolytes massive
amounts of salt
to try and hold on to those so that was
sort of my learning and then adding the
carbohydrates back to my diet not all
carbohydrates so not things like grains
not beans I didn't really even do roots
or many complex carbs it's mostly just
fruit and honey things have gone a lot
better over the last three years since
then so no more muscle cramps no more
heart palpitations testosterone back to
normal and I show my blood work all the
time on my podcast my total testosterone
is between seven and eight hundred with
like a really good sex hormone binding
globulin level which was actually
elevated on a ketogenic diet and comes
down when you add carbohydrates so all
sorts of things get better when you add
carbohydrates back and so now
the carnivore Community hates me
the ketogenic Community hates me the
vegans don't like what I'm saying and uh
yeah it's it's great because it means a
lot of good conversations come out of it
well there's a lot of nuance to what you
just share there and I want to really
get in there and and fish it out
and I'd like to start with the
electrolyte piece it sounds like that
was a big part of you hitting your wall
and making a dietary change at that
point before you started to really up
the carbs and include the honey
did you think about her did you try
including more electrolytes through a
product like element thinking of going
the supplement route before the food oh
I tried it it doesn't work you don't
hold on to it without that insulin
signal to the kidney you just waste it
so I was supplementing magnesium I was
supplementing potassium I was
supplementing sodium it's just sort of
like a losing bottle and then
I added carbohydrates from fruit fruit
juice and honey
and moderate amounts of sodium in sea
salt are enough to hang on to all the
minerals so you don't waste calcium
magnesium sodium chloride and other
things you don't we just don't waste
them when you have an insulin signal
these blood glucose spikes are actually
beneficial and they're part of normal
human physiology and as I suggested
earlier nor do they lead to any degree
of insulin resistance or human pathology
this is I would say a signal of
abundance for our bodies as humans and
you can see that in my blood work my
fasting insulin is lower now than it was
when I was a carnivore
My fasting blood glucose is lower
and my hemoglobin A1c is also lower a
really interesting piece of this for me
as you talk about the insulin is the
fact that it seems like this diet worked
for you for say about a year and a half
and a lot of people coming to a keto
diet carnivore diet and are getting
these healing benefits lowering the
insulin
are you open to the idea that when
somebody's metabolically unhealthy
coming to a diet like the carnivore diet
for a period of time bringing that
insulin back down and getting
metabolically healthy and then getting
to a point like where you're at now
where you're including more carbs
is there any validity in that because
we see that working with a lot of people
and you talked about this a lot of the
quote unquote experts are talking about
using the ketogenic diet to heal insulin
resistance and it is working for people
so
is it just the fact that it's only
working for a certain period of time
because people are so metabolically
unhealthy and then they need to Pivot
so there's there's an important piece
here to really flesh out
there's essentially zero evidence
that carbohydrates cause insulin
resistance
removing carbohydrates is valuable for
some people when they are insulin
resistant because the process of insulin
resistance that pathology leads to
broken metabolic Machinery so you can't
really use carbohydrates well when
you're insulin resistant when you're
metabolically unwell but the
carbohydrates didn't get you there
so yes it totally makes sense and there
is a utility to say you've got you know
a car that runs on gasoline and Electric
and the car gets broken and it can't use
gasoline anymore very well like yeah
there's a there's a point to just like
okay let it use electric for a little
while until you can fix the gasoline
engine but the gasoline didn't break the
gasoline engine I'm sort of stretching
this metaphor like the carbohydrates
don't cause insulin resistance
right they just are not processed well
by Broken metabolic Machinery so you can
remove them the other thing to
understand is that you can also just fix
your metabolic
Health without completely removing the
carbohydrates in the first place you can
just lower the carbohydrates again your
engine is not going to run on these very
well your metabolic Machinery is broken
and we can talk about why I think people
become insulin resistant because that is
probably at the center of our modern
epidemic of chronic disease and it's not
carbohydrates it's just not even I mean
there's Nuance there but it's not
carbohydrates it's not things like fruit
it's not things like honey
it's probably not even things like white
potatoes those don't make people insulin
resistant even though I'm not a fan of
them it's something else
so I think that if you have a broken
metabolic Machinery yeah you can lower
it I think people actually do better
with
50 90 grams of carbohydrates rather than
zero grams of carbohydrates per day if
they want to get low carb or moderate
carbs but I think yeah there's there's
some
time period in which you can lower that
and then
increase it eventually
and do better
I think people run into trouble
when they start to believe
that the carbohydrates are the problem
and
it's not the removal of carbohydrates
that really fixes the insulin resistance
so that that is something I would
disagree with Ruben carbohydrates
doesn't fix insulin resistance
you're removing the the fuel that can't
be burned
right but the insulin resistance is more
to Cellular membrane level the
mitochondrial membrane level and that
gets fixed over time when you eliminate
I think it's the omega-6 seed oils the
omega-6 polyunsaturated oils that are
the problem there that takes a little
more time to change out so there's ways
to accelerate that perhaps as well but
that's that's the perspective that I
have on it
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fascinating I want to take some time and
really get into it and you left us
hanging for a while there and then got
into it and I really want to get into
the Nuance so it's not the carbs that
are causing insulin resistance you've
touched on it but let's get into the
physiology of why these seed oils
what I'm hearing from you are these are
at the root of insulin resistance do you
know who Walter Kempner is no I don't so
he's an interesting fellow kind of a
controversial guy from the 1940s and
1950s maybe the 1960s
he's a physician who did a bunch of
studies with diabetics people that were
morbidly obese morbidly obese we're
talking hundreds of pounds obesity
if your team wants to find like images
you can see the study so he has this
thing called the rice diet
and in the 1950s and 1960s he put people
on a very very high carb very low fat
very low protein diet it was essentially
white sugar so sucrose
and white rice was the majority of the
diet
and they got better
they lost I mean some people went from
like literally being round to being thin
their diabetes got better so he fixed
diabetes with a very high carb very low
fat very low protein diet and it was by
necessity it was a low protein because
it was all carbohydrates
and the problem is that the human brain
doesn't want to do this like so he's
controversial because in order to get
his patients to do this he had to like
he had to do some crazy things to cajole
them and so not condoning his
experiments but the science is is
interesting and what it says about human
physiology to me is is very compelling
that you can give someone a diet of pure
white sugar and rice
and their diabetes gets better
why is your diabetes get better and this
is not even short-term this is long term
so that in the span of I think it was
four to six months he could then
liberalize these people's diets and
their diabetes did not return so this is
really interesting to me and I think it
kind of ties into the seed oil piece
and I'm not suggesting that this is a
a reasonable therapy for people because
when we know about human physiology in
the human brain
is that if you try to push any of the
macros too far our brain really Rebels
humans seem to be able to lose weight by
cutting carbohydrates or cutting fat if
you cut both of them together you have
what's called rabbit starvation
and you can lose a lot of weight very
quickly but it's very stressful on the
body hormonally
if you cut carbohydrates you have a
ketogenic diet if you cut fat you have a
low fat diet and if you look at the
trials head to head of low-fat or low
carb they both have about the same
amount of weight loss so there's some
contention but it doesn't really look
like a ketogenic diet is magical for
weight loss it's a little like a low-fat
diet is magical for weight loss relative
to keto they both work
but when you cut both
when you cut the the fat really really
low that's interesting to me
and this is what happened in the rice
diet and they the fat was so low that
these prob people were probably becoming
fatty acid deficient and there's a fatty
acid that you can measure in the human
blood it's called Mead acid m-e-a-d and
that's an indication of fatty acid
deficiency essential quote unquote fatty
acid deficiency
and so the hypothesis is that one of the
reasons this diet might have worked is
because when you restrict fat that much
the cell has to turn over those cell
membranes in a different way
and that probably causes a lot of these
polyunsaturated fats that are stuck in
the cell membranes to become mobilized
and turn over
the human body doesn't make
polyunsaturated fats but if you feed
someone carbohydrates the human body can
make saturated fats and model
unsaturated fats but this is essentially
an accelerated way to get rid of what
were potentially excess polyunsaturated
fatty acids in these people cell
membranes again I don't think this is a
good therapy for humans because it's so
hard on the brain humans don't want to
do this we sort of gravitate toward like
a third fat third carbohydrates and
maybe a third protein depending how
you're looking at it maybe a little less
if you're doing grams or calories but
there's some balance of those things
that kind of is what our body tends to
if you go too low fat your body will
Rebel and you know if you go too low
carb your body's like I want some
carbohydrates so the indication here is
there's something going on in these cell
membranes and there's a massive shift
that happens in the cell membrane when
you get very very low fat and I think
that's having to do with this turnover
of these omega-6 fatty acids so there's
a couple of ways to do this without
going solo fat you can also just get
them out of your diet
like extremely intentionally and then do
more fats that are saturated in their
place and so this is the part where it
gets a little bit cumbersome for people
to think about but I think that you can
get similar results by just having a low
linoleic acid diet so let's back up for
a moment talk about linoleic acid
omega-6 which means that six carbons
from the end of the molecule is the
first double bond it's an 18 carbon
molecule it's polyunsaturated which
means it has multiple double bonds
and there's a small amount in ruminant
fat so things like cows or goats or
bison or lamb sheep deer small amount
one to two percent
but animals like humans or pigs or
chickens that are monogastric accumulate
linoleic acid so the more of this fatty
acid we eat the more we store we don't
have a way to get rid of it like cows do
cows can transform it
so it where do we find linoleic acid in
the human diet we find it in chickens
and pigs that are fed corn and soy so
evolutionarily inappropriate diets
and you find it in nuts and seeds
plant foods and we have a massive input
of this linoleic acid into the human
diet now because we're feeding our
animals corn and soy things that they've
never eaten historically and all of our
processed food
is combined is added with these seed
oils things like corn canola sunflower
safflower soybean grape seed these are
all seed oils and they contain between
25 and 65 percent linoleic acid
so what you have I think is an
evolutionarily inconsistent amount of
linoleic acid coming into the human diet
and just like pigs just like chickens
when we eat corn and soy when we eat
Foods when we eat seed oils that have a
lot of this linoleic acid we store it
and I think that over time it
accumulates in our cell membranes and in
the membranes of a mitochondria these
little powerhouses in the cell and
causes problems and we can get into how
it might cause problems at the cellular
level if you want but that's kind of the
the 15 000 foot perspective that we have
this
this fatty acid that is in our food
supply historically but when we are
living
in a quote naturalistic way in the
forest in the jungle there's really very
limited access to foods that are high in
this it's very hard to get the amount of
seeds that you would get even in three
to five tablespoons of seed oils so I've
done some content about this
you look at corn oil for instance or
rice bran oil is an even better example
Chipotle very very popular and I went to
Chipotle and I asked what do you cook
your food and they said rice bran oil so
it's the oil extracted from the bran of
the rice
okay they put three to five tablespoons
of rice bran oil into a bowl like a
burrito bowl or a burrito with the rice
and the beans and the meat that are
cooking in there
to get three to five tablespoons of rice
bran oil you'd have to eat something
like three to four pounds of rice
so something that humans would never
ever do right it's the same with
sunflower seeds sunflower seed oil is in
almost everything soybean oil is very
common corn oil to get three to five
tablespoons of corn oil you have to eat
somewhere between 60 and 75 ears of corn
so you can see here that we have now
even if we were eating an occasional
sunflower seed from a sunflower plant
because we're starving as humans
historically or we're eating a little
bit of rice and getting the oil from the
brand or we're eating some corn in
Native American population
we're never going to get anywhere close
to the amount of linoleic acid coming
into our bodies in 2023 and really this
amount has been increasing massively
over the last 100 to 110 years in the
human diet so I think it's a very
interesting thing to see okay little egg
acid is just massively increased in our
diets
it gets in our cell membranes it gets
stuck there and then it causes things to
kind of shift in a negative way
metabolically does that make sense yeah
a lot there I want to dig into so just
to make sure I have this cracked when it
comes to our metabolic health and
insulin resistance you're saying the
root of that is this linoleic acid
that's getting taken up because we're
consuming too much of it primarily
through seed oils
they're becoming part of the cell
membranes and they're for lack of a
better term gunking things up which I
want to get into what's happening there
in a few minutes
but before I do I want to be clear on
linoleic acid it sounds like there's a
little bit within animal products is
that true yeah okay small amount so it's
not like we're looking to totally
eliminate it it's just about the ratio
it's way off we're getting way too much
way way too much and
you can look at the amount of calories
from linoleic acid in your diet you can
even do something like chronometer
and if I put my diet into chronometer
you can see how many calories you're
getting and all the breakdown of the
micronutrients it'll tell you how many
percent of your calories are coming from
linoleic acid are coming from omega-6
which is mostly linoleic acid
and when I do that it's usually below
two percent of my daily calories the
average American is probably upwards of
10 to 12 percent are there daily
calories maybe even 15 of your calories
are from linoleic acid so it's it's easy
to measure and if you look at one of
those programs you can see but it's
there's a difference and if you look at
hunter-gatherer populations
this has been studied it's it's never
more than like two and a half percent of
their calories from an oleic acid that
just doesn't exist in nature it doesn't
exist The Only Exception might be
something like the koi son in Botswana
when they eat the mangongo nuts but you
can also see that when they eat the
nuts during that season they also
become more fat so it's like it's it's
the 100 gatherer population that in the
last 30 to 40 years that they've been
studied is doing this Behavior where
they're eating a huge amount of nuts but
they're probably eating the nuts because
their hunting lands are being encroached
on they can't hunt animals and it's one
of their survival foods and you can see
that they're getting more than oleic
acid than other traditional
hunter-gatherer populations but when
they do that their metabolic indices at
least ostensibly seem to suffer but you
look at populations like the hadza who I
visited in Tanzania
they're not getting linoleic acid from
anything except animal fat they're not
eating any seeds unless they're starving
they're obviously not eating any seed
oils they're not eating any chickens or
pigs that are fed corn and soy so it's
very rare in nature
all right well let's continue the story
so we know linoleic acid is getting
incorporated into cell membranes gunking
up the cell
let's talk about now the physiology of
how that leads to insulin resistance
there's probably a couple of ways
so most people would agree that insulin
resistance is caused by Broken fat cells
so it's the adipose tissue I believe
that initiates insulin resistance in the
periphery at the liver and at the muscle
primarily but everywhere really
and the way that that happens
is because of these lipokines these
signals that are sent out from the fat
cells when the fat cells are broken so
the fat cells are very smart we think of
fat as just like a bag of fat but our
fat cells have nuclei they have DNA they
have mitochondria and they release
signals to the rest of the body
and so what appears to happen is that
when you stuff the fat cells first with
too much linoleic acid they can't divide
they just get bigger and bigger and
bigger this is hypertrophy versus
hyperplasia so hyperplasia is when a
tissue divides and you get more cells
hypertrophy is when one cell just gets
very big like you think of hypertrophy
like a like a bodybuilder gets a big
bicep but your fat cell just gets really
big
and so there's lots of evidence that
these products of linoleic acid
breakdown which are unique to linoleic
acid and don't come from anywhere but
linoleic acid things like 4-H and E four
hydroxy known and all and others are
like intimately connected with breaking
fat cell division there's articles that
have that exact title you know 4-H and E
leads to Fat cell dysplasia so you get
these big ballooning fat cells because
of these products of linoleic acid
breakdown for hne and others
and then the fat cells can't divide like
they're supposed to it kind of breaks
their normal cell division and they
start leaking inflammatory mediators
they leak fat signals to the periphery
they leak lipokines and then you get
essentially increased levels of fat in
the blood
and you see this in a lot of conditions
where you have non-esterified fatty
acids in the blood
and that signals to the muscles to
become insulin resistant and this is
similar in some ways to what happens
when you donate carbohydrates because
when you don't eat carbohydrates you
have more non-sterified fatty acids in
the blood the difference is that you
don't have broken fat cells on the back
end you just have fat cells that are
signaling to the muscles hey don't take
up glucose because we're trying to
conserve the glucose for the brain the
testicles the ovaries the adrenals
it's like this physiologic insulin
resistance but in pathologic insulin
resistance you have these fat cells that
are doing this all the time
and an insulin signal can't turn that
off
so insulin is not necessarily anabolic
it's anti-catabolic so insulin is meant
to signal to those fat cells to stop
releasing these non-acertified fatty
acids but when they become insulin
resistant when the fat cells become
insulin resistant they they just release
these things all the time
all the time they're just spewing out
these mediators saying be insulin
resistant be insulin resistant to the
liver to the muscles and so your muscles
become insulin resistant your liver
becomes insulin resistant and that leads
to all sorts of problems and that is
sort of the Genesis of what we see in
metabolic dysfunction diabetes
pre-diabetes
at a deeper cellular level people also
believe that these not these these
linoleic acid molecules become
incorporated into something called
cardiolipan in the mitochondrial wall
and this may have to do with why the fat
cells get broken at the level of the
mitochondria that these mitochondria
have these I think there's four tails on
a cardiolipine molecule could be three
but I think it's four and they have
these fatty acids on on their tails and
they're at the curves of these inner
mitochondrial membrane these cristae and
when they get overly populated with
linoleic acid it probably creates
changes in the way the mitochondrial
membrane works and that may cause
mitochondrial dysfunction so ultimately
it looks like excess linoleic acid is
causing changes in cellular signaling
leading to Broken fat cells and that
leads to inappropriate signals to the
rest of the body and we have good models
of this happening there's actually a
condition called Dunnigan familial
lipodystrophy and it's a monogenic
condition of insulin resistance so it's
monogenic it's one gene it's a gene
called lmna and these people have
insulin resistance because of one gene
mutation and it causes basically they're
they look very lean but they have tons
of visceral adipose tissue and they're
non-esterified fatty acids are through
the roof because they're just spewing
out all these mediators from their fat
cells into the blood and they get
profound insulin resistance and with
that they also get accelerated
atherosclerosis so accelerated
cardiovascular disease interestingly
people with Donegan familial
lipodystrophy don't have elevated LDL
they just have profound insulin
resistance and they get aggressive
cardiovascular disease
all right so putting this whole puzzle
together coming back to the ketogenic
diet lowering carbs lowering insulin
we know that this does work but again
coming back to what you said before
this isn't getting to the root of the
problem it's a workaround
so we're not denying that that can be a
workaround and you can use that as a
tool but what you're talking about here
changing up the cell membranes getting
the proper fat in that's getting to the
root exactly
exactly
so we know seed oils are a big part of
the problem here we know that animal
products contain a little bit of this
linoleic acid but not enough that it's
actually an issue
what about oils like coconut oil avocado
oil
olive oil ones that get a pass in the
health and wellness space as being good
quality oils
how do they fit on this spectrum
yeah so this is really interesting so
you can really just make a continuum
of the amount of linoleic acid in any
oil so butter tallow one to two percent
coconut oil
two percent
you see a big jump when you go to
avocado and Olive and it can be anywhere
from eight to twenty percent linoleic
acid in both of those
so some olive oil is eight percent some
olive oil is twenty percent
about the same for avocado It generally
ends up in the 12 to 14 percent linoleic
acid range for those oils
they're better than seed oils because
they're not refined bleached and
deodorized so to get oil out of a corn
granule right you have to crush it and
squeeze it and heat it and extract it
and use hexane and bleaching agents to
get oil out of Olives you just press
them I mean you can do it on your
counter you can just smash it all in
your hand and you'll get olive oil in
your hand
the problem with avocado and Olive
is not the way they're prepared the
problem is
twofold in my opinion
the first being the most problematic
piece which is that they're often
adulterated because these are more
expensive oils that are becoming more in
Vogue if you look at the literature
there's clear evidence that both avocado
and Olive
more than 50 of the time are caught with
seed oils and very often their peroxide
values which means their oxidation
levels of the oils the fatty acids in
there are higher than preferred meaning
that they're they're old
so when you look at a fat you have
saturated fats monounsaturated fats and
polyunsaturated fats
polyunsaturated fats are the most likely
to oxidize they're the least stable the
more double bonds the more unstable a
molecule is
so people may not know this but omega-3
fatty acids are the least stable of any
fatty acid because they have so many
double bonds so I think that humans
benefit from omega-3 fatty acids in
foods
but I'm not a fan of any sort of omega-3
fatty acid taken as an extraction and
some people will say but I have this
bottle of fish oil and it's a bottle
that's open to the air it's like you
cannot have a bottle of fish oil open to
the air that's massively oxidized that's
just not it it's just it's too fragile
you can't do that even if you put it in
a capsule it's fragile enough that it's
going to be highly oxidized so if you
want to get omega-3 from fish that's
fine I think there's plenty of Omega-3
for humans and things like egg yolks
animal fats even Tallow like beef fat
has plenty of Omega-3 that's a whole
separate conversation
so omega-6 this linoleic acid returning
to that it's going to oxidize quite a
bit that's a problem for humans in a big
way so you're going to get oxidation of
olive oil you're going to get oxidation
of avocado theoretically if you know
people in Italy and you're there when
they're pressing the olive oil and those
are organic olives and you're not
heating it and you're packaging it in
glass
it's probably pretty benign for humans
but again I think that there is some
argument to be made that if someone is
metabolically unwell
and you want to be metabolically health
or healthier sooner
the the speed with which you approach
that metabolic health is probably
proportional to the amount of linoleic
acid in your diet or inversely
proportional if you see what I'm saying
kind of like the rice diet people I
think if someone is unwell
they would do well or they would be
better served by having the smallest
amount of linoleic acid possible in
their diet
right and cooking with olive oil is not
a good idea because you shouldn't heat
an oil that's that
fragile nor avocado but look I want to
make it I don't want it to be impossible
for people but ideally speaking
I think if someone is unwell you'd want
to have the smallest amount of linoleic
acid possible in your diet and avocado
and Olive are not great for that because
they have more and they're often cut
with seed oils they're often oxidized
and kind of rancid does that make sense
yeah it does I'm just trying to picture
somebody in a position like you talked
about that's trying to
I guess a good analogy would be doing an
oil change almost like you're doing an
oil change for your car where you're
trying to switch out the linoleic acid
in your cell membranes for better fats
so we know on one extreme we have the
rice and the sugar diet which is going
to be
changing that up the quickest
but say there's somebody that cuts out
the seed oils
they're eating Whole Foods they're
taking these other oils we're talking
about olive oil coconut oil avocado oil
oh and switching up to tallow
would it take
to change that up and to renew their
cell membranes
we don't have great data here there's
one paper
on the kinetics of changing the cell
membranes
and this suggests like two years
but I think that it can go faster if you
just clean my clinical observation
and suspicion is that it can go faster
if you do those things now I think most
people are going to get some
they're going to get some olive oil
they're going to get some avocado oil
and if you really
want to get like brass tacks here it
gets to a point where people it's not
popular because you have to look at
things like what is the chicken that
you're eating now chicken is generally
pretty lean so you're not going to get a
lot of fat from that chicken
poultry
lean duck sometimes more fatty and duck
is the same way if that duck is fed corn
and soy it's going to have more linoleic
acid in the membrane
pork is probably a problem for a lot of
people because if people are eating pork
they're usually eating fatty pork
particularly bacon and so if you really
wanted to do this quickly look bacon is
a meat it's way better than other
Foods in my opinion it's better than
processed foods better than seed oils
but bacon can have 15 linoleic acid in
it also and then you're getting a lot of
fat in that bacon because it's really
fatty so it's never popular when I talk
about getting rid of bacon from your
diet but I think that that can slow the
progression for some people because
linoleic acid comes from seed oils it
comes from you know olive oil avocado
oil
chicken and pork fed corn and soy which
is 99.5 percent of all chicken and pork
and that those are the major sources
even eggs unfortunately can have
significant amounts of linoleic acid if
the chickens are fed corn and soy
and this is sort of just this discordant
place that we find ourselves in in the
universe
in in our planet in 2023 it's hard to
find chickens that are fed bugs
right it's hard to find pigs that are
wild and not just fed corn and soy those
are the types of animals we would have
eaten you know if I'm in Tanzania and
we're hunting a bush pig with a hadza
animals not eating corn and soy if you
look at wild pigs the fatty tissue is
four to five percent linoleic acid the
same for chickens another vowel right
four to five percent but you put those
things in captivity and you feed them
grains 15 20 percent
it's crazy so again if someone is
metabolically healthy
maybe not a big deal
but if you're unwell if you're obese if
you're diabetic pre-diabetic and you
really want to get fast you want to get
healthy as fast as possible then I think
there is some
there is some benefit to thinking about
getting that little egg acid as low as
possible at least in the short term and
then it's kind of like the carbohydrates
right maybe you do a low linoleic acid
diet for four to six months and then you
can liberalize and have olive oil in
your salad or whatever I mean we can
talk about salad that's a whole separate
conversation you want to have some olive
oil fine you want to have some avocado
oil fine you want to eat some regular
chicken okay if you want to eat some
bacon in six months fine but it's just I
think that there is a way to approach
that level of balance more quickly and
it just depends how intentional and how
detailed people want to get does that
make sense yeah it does and I can
imagine for a lot of people that are
eating healthy and they want to make
steps in this direction like we're
talking about an area they'd really need
to address is eating out and that's
controversial of whether that could even
be considered healthy because there's so
many oils that are used in cooking that
we're unaware of even when we're at
these quote unquote healthier
restaurants and eating
eating you know meats and some of the
things you'd advocate for most of the
time if you go to a steakhouse
they're just going to cook that steak on
the grill
every once in a while because I do this
a lot when I go to cities
I'll go to restaurants and ask them
what they're cooking in and if they're
cooking chicken
on a grill on a griddle on like a flat
top they might be cooking chicken in
canola oil or sunflower oil if there's a
sauce
it's likely that sauce is going to have
some seed oils in it but if you're just
getting a steak the majority of the time
you're pretty darn safe steak is pretty
safe a lot of time it's cooked in
Tallow or it's just cooked
on a grill so I think that makes it that
makes it better in a lot of ways for
people it makes it easier to get that
you know one of the pieces of your work
that I really appreciate and you've
touched on this the fact that we can't
just look at what we're eating we have
to go all the way back to what that
animal is eating when we're having
proteins and animal products I find a
lot of the people in the carnivore world
are big on consuming meat and
aren't necessarily always concerned
about the quality of that meat and one
thing that comes up in your work time
and time again is to be aware of what
these animals are eating and how that
changes the nutrient profile of that
food for us
talk more about that in the importance
because again this is something that's
really Central to your message
yeah this is interesting so
as much as I don't want
this to be an impediment for people and
as much as I believe that
making any intentional change in your
diet is going to improve your health
I do think
I do hope that it's also valuable to
give people a North star
and to give them an ideal way for a diet
to look for them to shoot for
I don't want it to be unreachable
and so I think that that ideal situation
of diet is eating
plant foods that are organic
I predominantly eat fruit I eat
exclusively fruit but whatever plant
Foods people want to eat
those would be organic
the honey that I eat is glyphosate free
so it's from farms that are organic and
not near
any
place that's spraying glyphosate so
that's important to know about your
honey the milk I get is raw and again
this is all just the North Star if we
can create the ideal situation the milk
is raw
and hopefully those cows are fed grass
exclusively and hopefully those cows are
raised on
land that it doesn't isn't sprayed with
pesticides
and the meat and organs that I eat are
from grass-fed
grass-finished cows
so
as I mentioned earlier
the interesting thing about cows and
also bison or deer or elk or Antelope is
that these are ruminant animals and if
you feed a cow corn it's not really
going to increase the amount of linoleic
acid in the fatty tissue significantly
the problem as I see it with corn
finished cattle that's cattle that's
raised on grass and then finished the
last three to four months of its life on
grains
is it these animals then accumulate
everything that's in that corn
and that corn can be moldy that corn can
have microplastics because a lot of this
feed is low quality
and that corn almost certainly has
pesticides
so if you look at the muscle and fat
tissue of grass-fed grass-finished
animals
there are two things that you notice
grass-feding grass feeding grass
finishing animals leads to lower amounts
of pesticides and toxins in the meat
whether it's hormones whether it's
pharmaceutical drugs whether it's mold
toxins whether it's microplastics
glyphosate and there are some nutrients
that are significantly higher in that
type of meat so you're basically taking
a a cow
and that's an herbivore and you're
giving it its ideal diet which is more
nutrient-rich grass
something that humans can't eat by the
way we cannot eat grass toxic for humans
because of the amount of silica
so cows can take this grass and make it
into valuable meat and organs for humans
and you're replacing that in a
significant amount of the cattle grown
in the U.S or in the world with inferior
quality food
and anyone that's ever been to a nice
restaurant or is a foodie in any way
shape or form or likes good wine or good
chocolate or anything can appreciate
that quality matters
and the reason that quality matters is
if you like nice cars or whatever you
like right
the quality matters and so the nutrients
in a food are often reflected in The
Taste the complexity of the tastes and
that's that's significant so if you've
been to a really nice steakhouse and you
had grass-fed meat at a steakhouse which
isn't actually that it's not served that
often at steakhouses because it's leaner
but if you've had a really good
grass-fed steak or you've had a good
I don't know honey or good milk
you know that there's a difference in
quality when animals are fed what
they're supposed to be eating and that's
really a reflection I would say of the
nutrient profile
and then if you look at the literature
the absence of other harmful things in
these Foods I want to come back to your
diet as a whole at this point and the
way I remember it last time we talked
you were doing a carnivore diet you were
big on organ meats and you're big on
eating nose to tail
and the way I understand it now you've
included honey raw dairy
and a significant amount of fruit for
carbohydrates
in each of those categories there are
beyond the meat and and you're still
into organs too but in each of those
categories beyond the meat
the dairy the fruit the honey
talk about why you've chosen to include
each of those like is there specific
nutrients in each of those Realms going
back to your story as you shared it
before we know electrolytes was a
problem you ran into as as a carnivore
but why the diversity is it for flavor
is it for nutrients why why not just add
say fruit back in and keep it more
simple yeah so we can talk about all of
those things individually it's a great
question let's talk about raw dairy
we've talked a little bit about the
fruit and the honey but I'll talk about
raw dairy
so I feared Dairy I was fearful of dairy
for many years because I think that
pasteurized Dairy was a major allergen
for me growing up I grew up
in northern Virginia my father was a
physician my mom was a nurse so with my
asthma and eczema I was wildly over
medicated
and I think that pasteurized Dairy was a
problem for me and it wasn't until the
last few years that I understood why
this could potentially be
I came across a significant amount of
literature there's many many studies
showing benefits to unpasteurized Dairy
there are multiple observational studies
in children showing that kids who eat
raw dairy whether it's cheese milk
butter kefir which is fermented milk
some people say kefir
on or off the farm have lower rates of
asthma eczema allergies hay fever when
they're adults that's fascinating
and it's observational so correlation is
not causation but that's a pretty
striking finding that shows up
repeatedly
in studies and what we know about raw
milk is that when you heat milk that
comes out of a cow or a goat or a camel
whatever you want to milk it changes the
confirmation of many of the proteins in
that milk
and it changes the population of
bacteria in the milk many of which are
commensal and probably valuable and
impact the human gut in a positive way
protein specifically is found to be very
beneficial for humans but especially
beneficial and probably most beneficial
when it's undenatured
anything above 147 degrees or 150
degrees Fahrenheit seems to change the
conformation of the whey protein and it
looks like many of these immunologic
benefits are lost
so that's a pretty big deal
so I thought okay
if this food can affect my immune system
in a positive way
potentially affects my gut in a positive
way and I'll talk about that in a moment
and it's getting me a source of
bioavailable calcium and more
animal-based nutrients K2
menaquinone choline Etc it's something I
want to have in my diet and for people
that drink raw milk you know it's
delicious
and what I found was that when I
reincorporated raw dairy first as
Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese and then it's
raw milk
I I wasn't nearly as lactose intolerant
as I expected to be and I've later
learned that most of these raw milks
contain bacteria that can populate the
human gut and then produce this lactase
enzyme even if you've lost it
it seems that the A1 casein protein
which is another protein in milk is only
really allergenic for humans when it's
pasteurized again this conformational
changes in the proteins of milk
that happened a lot with cooking
so when I Incorporated raw milk I didn't
have any recurrence of eczema I felt
better and I was aware that I was
getting like all these interesting
nutrients and I think my gut felt even
better than it did before
subjectively and this is just my
experience I felt like when I was
surfing I could surf longer I just I
don't know how to describe it it was
like I had I had more drive to Surf I
was more
driven to surf for longer amounts of
time
I didn't it wasn't that I was running
out of gas but I think that before this
is just my subjective experience take
from what you will I would go out in the
ocean I would surf two two and a half
hours sometimes three hours whereas
before I would just kind of after an
hour and a half I would just think ah
I'm done with this I'm kind of tired but
it just changed my subjective experience
would it change something for me and
again my gut felt better I think my poop
got better when I started adding raw
milk
The more I've learned about raw milk the
more people I've talked to I recently
went to a farm in California called raw
Farm the biggest raw dairy in the world
and the stories I heard from them that
people have told them what I heard in
Los Angeles when I was there at arawan
doing the Smoothie launch the first
animal-based smoothie at arawan
soy people came up to me and talked
about how raw milk had improved their
gut and fixed their gut
and this is so interesting because
in the space that I'm in as a physician
people who have gut issues that's been
the hardest thing to fix for them
we as humans are just bombarded our
whole life with things that are bad for
our gut Flora there's this trillions of
bacteria in our gut this whole another
alien organism that lives between your
mouth and your anus really
trillions of bacteria 10 to the 16th
bacteria more cells than you have in
your human body by a factor of three or
four who knows
and we're just changing the composition
of that Collective organism with
antibiotics with pesticides probably
with lectins defense chemicals and
plants
so then this interesting question is how
the heck do you rehabilitate that and
probiotics make sense but in my
experience they don't always work
sometimes they make it worse but raw
milk of all the things that I've seen
clinically raw milk is hands down the
best for people's guts and whether it's
raw milk or raw kefir fermented milk
those two things are incredibly valuable
for human guts in terms of
re-establishing healthy populations
in the gut and that just makes so much
sense to me intuitively and I don't know
if there's any published literature
we need to do some but there are studies
on raw milk and kids with respiratory
tract infections their studies on the
immunologic differences between raw and
pasteurized milk for mothers like I said
there's studies in kids with less
Allergy Asthma and eczema so there's a
ton of literature that raw milk is
beneficial for humans and affects our
immune system I've never seen anything
about the gut Flora but you can imagine
that raw milk is basically a probiotic
food it is the original probiotic food
and when you or I were hopefully
breastfeeding as children the first
thing that we had was this milk from our
mothers with thousands of different
types of organisms raw I mean breast
milk is not sterile just like raw cow's
milk it's not sterile it's just that
those skin Flora are what our bodies
expect even if it's from a mammal other
than your mom
it seems to be very beneficial for the
human gut in a lot of different ways so
that's really interesting that you can
in some ways for people that have this
may sound a little controversial but I
think it's it makes the point
for people that have issues with their
gut that have potentially negatively
changed the populations in their gut
in some ways you can return to
breastfeeding by getting raw good
quality mammalian milk into your diet
and that's really cool
all right there's a few nuances I want
to get into within the milk realm here
you've stated your obvious preference
for Raw versus pasteurized do you ever
have pasteurized milk though just more
as a calorie source as something
more as a neutral food
and say like you're OT and there's less
choices will you have it then or would
you ever bring it in the house I'm just
curious how
Stern you are on only having raw I'm
intense about it I don't do anything
with pasteurized in fact
I was recently in Greece
with a friend and we were on his boat
and
they said that we were drinking raw milk
but we weren't drinking raw milk and
that was really the the main change
um now again I'm in Greece so I'm eating
different foods but I'm basically eating
meat and fruit and honey
and I could tell that my body was
reacting differently to that that
pasteurized milk and again it's just my
anecdote but I was getting like a little
acne and it's funny I would get acne
like on my collarbone I would get acne
like here on my shoulder I never get
this right a little bit on my neck like
it's just it seems to be like an
autoimmune type of reaction I got these
multiple sort of like
pimples on my collarbone along my
collarbone and I think that was related
just observationally to this this
pasteurized milk so I've just learned
that my immune system doesn't like
pasteurized milk and I would rather not
drink milk than have something that's
pasteurized I don't think it works for
me got it so it has to be raw and
through you sharing your Dairy story
there we know you're into cow milk what
about other animals such as sheep and
goat oftentimes in the health and
wellness space people that don't do cow
for whatever reason
we'll include these other animal milks
and there's been talk that they're you
know
easier on the body for people that have
trouble with cow milk
so how do you feel say you're at Whole
Foods and and you're picking up some raw
cheese and you have an option of sheep
uh goat or cow well you grab all three
to have diversity or do you gravitate
more to one I like them all but I really
like goat milk I drink a lot of goat
milk here in Costa Rica
I would definitely drink sheep's milk I
don't have any problem with other
species milks if they're mammals I've
had camel milk before
I've heard there's horse milk I would
like to try horse milk
I think I would try any mammal's milk if
it's raw I think it's fine and when I'm
at Whole Foods usually if I can find a
raw sheep's milk cheese
I like that or raw goat cheese I tend to
prefer those but I don't think there's
anything really different people get
kind of hung up on the A1 versus A2 and
I think that's not as much of an issue
if it's unpasteurized
the tricky part about Whole Foods is
that Whole Foods doesn't do raw milk
because they did have an experience
where someone of their customers got
sick from a poorly produced raw milk
farm many years ago
thankfully Sprouts does raw milk
especially in California other stores
and Sprouts actually has some raw kefir
from this raw Farm throughout the
country if you can find that as well
how do you feel about colostrum from a
cow this is a popular supplement that
can be found I believe heart and soil
even has colostrum in one of the
products at least yeah is this something
you you include in your diet on a
regular basis when I can get it yeah
yeah I think that the colostrum so the
grass-fed colostrum from hardened soil
is one of the most common supplements
that I take because it's hard to get
fresh colostrum
I can often get fresh liver or fresh
heart in Costa Rica it's not too hard to
find fresh testicles
hardened soil makes desiccated organs so
if you if I can't find those or someone
can't find those organs you can get the
capsules which are freeze-dried but even
here in Costa Rica it's very hard for me
to find fresh colostrum so the
freeze-dried colostrum is pretty good
and I think that colostrum is incredibly
valuable for humans I mean there's
probably 250 studies on colostrum in the
medical literature
there's a peptide in colostrum called
colostranin
studied again for childhood respiratory
tract infections
colostrum has been studied in
Alzheimer's disease models it's been
studied in humans for cognitive decline
I mean it's it's a pretty powerful food
colostrum is the first milk from mammals
and it's quote milk it's mostly
immunoglobulins so it's a very highly
immunologically I would say active
substance and it's valuable it's really
cool I'm glad that people are beginning
to
use it I appreciate it because I think
that just like raw milk it's it's kind
of like a concentrated form of raw milk
all right so we have the colostrum
I know you're big on too obviously your
your company hardens oil again you're
big into organs in supplement form or
having the mess Whole Foods
any other supplements that you've
included
since we last talked none
salt
and I'm intentional about the salt
I try to find Salt that's low in
microplastics
there's a couple of different salts
there's a kaleema salt
there's a couple other different salts
that can say they're low in microplastic
so microplastics are just getting into
all of our food supplies and I'm just
intentional about that but
I haven't really felt the need and it's
been a very interesting
I think Endeavor to think about what
supplements I would possibly include
a lot of people include magnesium and so
I did chronometer for my diet on my
podcast which is now called the Paul
saladino MD podcast
and I'm getting like 125 percent of the
RDA for magnesium in my diet from milk
from orange juice from coconut water
and meat is actually a really good
source of magnesium
in terms of minerals
if you're eating liver
and you're eating red meat I can't think
of a mineral that you're going to be
deficient in I mean you're going to get
manganese I think people sometimes get
wrapped around the axle with thymine but
there's plenty of thymine and different
fruits there's plenty of thymine and
organs and animal Foods
so in terms of B vitamins if you're
including liver
you've got riboflavin you've got choline
you've got biotin things that are not as
rich in muscle meat in fact riboflavin
and biotin are particularly poor in
muscle Meats adding organs helps with
that
you're getting plenty of
B6 B5 B12
folate is also in liver and egg yolks so
in terms of the B vitamins you're pretty
well covered
in terms of the minerals you're pretty
well covered
in terms of the other vitamins the fat
soluble vitamins vitamin E is really
prevalent in animal fat butter
vitamin C is in Fruit orange juice I'll
have some fresh squeeze orange juice
every day
and then the carbohydrates help with the
other mineral retention so that I don't
have to do a whole lot of these
electrolytes anymore I don't supplement
potassium it's actually can be dangerous
to supplement potassium depending on
your kidney status
so I think that assault basically a
sodium
allows your body to hold on to all of
the other minerals and you look at this
animal-based diet which is basically
what I've called this meat organs fruit
honey raw dairy
there's really nothing nothing missing
and I'm just not saying that that's what
I see on chronometers so I don't feel
the need to supplement with anything
else
but I'm interested in what kind of
things people feel like they need or
benefit from but I think as long as I
can get the organs and I'm getting the
fresh organs or the desiccated organs
like heart and soil I don't see a need
to do much of anything here
well one of the things I think is really
unique about your diet versus say some
of the carnivores or other people eating
an animal-based diet
is the amount of organs that you consume
or at least presumably from following
your work online
a lot of people these days whether
they're you know variety of different
diets people are including them for the
different health benefits and the amount
of nutrients they contain
but it seems like for you you're
consuming them in Whole Food form and in
supplement form you're the founder of a
company that you know does organ
supplements so that makes sense you're
going to be having a lot of them
compared to the average Joe
but what I'm getting at is
how many organs do we need and the
reason I asked that is I'm picturing
somebody back in the day ancestral times
killing an animal harvesting the organs
they're gonna have a lot of muscle meat
they're gonna have a relatively small
amount of organs
so
again in your diet it seems like you're
having quite a few of these
do you feel like you're doing more than
our ancestors would do do you feel
that's just an advantage of the 21st
century and having access to them and
you're better off because of it I'm just
curious on how you think of that from an
ancestral perspective
yeah so um I think that when I was doing
a strict carnivore diet perhaps because
I was only eating meat and organs
I was eating more organs than I am now
and a different variety but right now on
a daily basis I have about half an ounce
of liver maybe an ounce of liver per day
so not a not a huge amount maybe the
size of a quarter per liver and I'll do
like frozen raw usually or desiccated
like hardened soil
I'll do a few ounces of heart every day
because I can just throw it on the grill
with my meat hard is interesting it's a
muscle but it is uniquely high and
things like answering taurine coenzyme
Q10 some other peptides that are found
in heart so my go-to's on a daily basis
are liver and heart and I think if
people are getting liver especially
that's a huge upgrade
if you add a little bit of heart every
once in a while or a couple times a week
you're doing great
I might add in some testicle a few times
a month just because we know the
testicle contains bioactive androgens I
mean
I don't know if you've heard this story
but all of our supplements that hardened
soil now
are informed Sports approved which is
like the NSF it's actually more rigorous
than an SF
so they have no contaminants quote
unquote so that professional athletes
can take them so all the supplements are
informed Sports except one only one of
them failed and that was our whole
package supplement which is the one with
testicle and it didn't fail because we
add anything to it it failed because
testicle in the supplement naturally
contains bioactive androgens androstein
Dione testosterone so informed Sports
won't certify that one because it
contains androgens so we know that
testicle contains androgens and so you
know I'm a man my testosterone is great
my libido is good especially when I
sleep well I've shown this in my blood
work all the time but I think testicle
is valuable for men to eat maybe even
women sometimes too but definitely is a
man I like to eat testicle every once in
a while
and that's about the extent of my organs
these days if I come across sometimes I
get some tripe or some intestines I'll
cook some like intestines on the grill
and those can be really good but I don't
do a lot of different things anymore I
think that the desiccated organs help
with that you know beef organs is hard
liver kidney spleen and pancreas that's
easier for me than cooking kidney and
pancreas and spleen which are not super
great I haven't figured out a way to
make those easily so I don't eat a ton
of organs anymore but I think that the
organs that I eat are like the most
impactful ones that I can get easily and
that's what I want people to know that
even if you just include liver it's
going to be a big deal and people it's
incredible what you hear from people who
include things like testicle or other
organs in their life too
all right let's talk about processing
when it comes to organ meat so you
mentioned a few different things there
Frozen liver you mentioned cooking some
organs we know the supplements are
desiccated which is freeze-dried right
is that it synonymous I think it's a
little different but yeah yeah okay
we'll talk about talk about supplements
then in the different ways of processing
and then talk about why someone would
want to have certain organs prepared in
certain ways and what we lose when
they're cooked or freeze-dried yeah so
the interesting thing about this
conversation is that when I was with the
hadza
they didn't need anything raw they
cooked it all so we were eating cooked
liver they were not eating raw liver but
some African tribes will eat raw liver
and I'll tell you that when we hunted
and killed animals with the hadza and
they took the liver out of the animal
they treated that thing like gold it was
like placed on a rock very carefully
cooked and then divided with the tribe
this probably makes sense being in the
bush parasites are a thing so I think
there's value
to cooked liver
I have found that Raw Liver is easier
for me to eat
I can either chew it and I think it's
fairly safe because I believe that I'm
getting it from a good source I've never
gotten sick from raw liver but people
should know that raw meat raw organs raw
vegetables all of these have risks raw
milk very safe but I think that the most
number of food poisoning cases actually
come from raw vegetables
now and that pasteurized milk has just
as many problems with contamination as
raw milk does today and if you get raw
milk from a place like raw Farm they
tested a whole bunch that stuff is super
super safe but if you want to eat organs
raw that's great I've eaten a lot of raw
organs in my day raw heart pretty
freaking safe if you've ever eaten a
rare steak or a blue rare steak you know
that you can eat muscle meat pretty darn
rare and raw and be just fine the vast
majority of the time
but I do think that if you eat a whole
bunch of ground beef raw you're probably
going to run into problems just because
the meat is all ground together so there
are values to cooked organs
what's interesting for me about freeze
drying organs is that you can basically
take the water out of an organ at a
temperature below what you find in the
freezer of your house that's what freeze
drying is
there's something called the triple
point where you can sublimate water you
can just take it directly from a solid
to a gas
if you make the pressure low enough so
that's what a freeze dryer does it
lowers the pressure and you can just
take the water out of something
at a very very low temperature so what's
interesting about that is that you can
make these desiccated organs well let's
say freeze-dried is probably the correct
term
and it preserves as many of the
nutrients as possible there were studies
done on Raw organs and freeze-dried
organs in the 1950s on animals and they
found that there were these bioactive
factors probably peptides that were
present in raw and present in
freeze-dried organs that were not
present in cooked organs so that kind of
stuff makes me think oh
it's probably good to get some cooked
organs probably good to get some
freeze-dried organs maybe go to get some
raw organs too but I think that there is
something to this like idea that if you
cook your organs and you cook all of
your food all the way through you may be
missing some benefits
I came across a new train recently that
I was reminded of named taurine
and there's a lot of longevity arguments
out there now against meat people in the
longevity space don't eat meat
ironically they also take about a
hundred supplements
many of which are nutrients found
exclusively in meat
things like carnosine or taurine
and the data on taurine is very
compelling there was actually an article
published in June or July of 2023 in
science
talking about how across worms across
mice and across primates taurine
supplementation extends lifespan
well taurine is only found in meat
so that doesn't make a whole lot of
sense that something found exclusively
in meat would extend lifespan but that
meat would be bad for your lifespan
and I did a podcast recently about that
there's a number of nutrients like that
answering creatine carnosine B12 four
hydroxyproline which is a component of
collagen all of these are found
exclusively or vastly predominantly in
meat and connective tissue and they're
very good for humans so it just kind of
flies in the face of these
anti-longevity meat arguments but the
point of this point the point of this
discussion here was that taurine is
actually the nature in 40 to 50 when you
cook meat
so it's probably benefit to eating
a medium rare or a rare steak
you can sear the outside get rid of
anything problematic on the outside of
the stake but then you're getting some
rare ish meat in the middle
and even though I talked about the
dangers of ground beef I eat most of my
hamburgers medium medium rare
and I think that the same goes with
liver you know when you're eating raw
liver you're getting more taurine you're
getting all of the bioactive factors
so that's kind of the spectrum and why
you'd want to do one thing or another
the safest thing is a freeze-dried organ
or a cooked organ
and I think that the the most risky
thing is a raw organ
in the middle is probably liver that's
cooked on the outside and pink in the
middle just like a steak but again I I
definitely roll the dice and haven't had
any issues with fully raw liver I think
freezing it probably helps somewhat but
people don't have to feel like that's
something they have to do if that's not
doable for them
got it let's come back to the honey
piece of the diet
I'm curious because you've added in
fruit and honey
is there anything specific in the honey
that you're getting nutrient wise that
you wouldn't get from the fruit
or is that just had more diversity it's
more diversity
um I like the way honey tastes in raw
milk
and I'm pretty active so this morning I
served for
two hours
in the ocean and then I'll get a workout
maybe skate this afternoon
and in
interesting humbling fashion
I've found that basically the more
carbohydrates I eat the better I feel
now
the more carbohydrates I eat the better
I recover the stronger I am the better
my libido is the better I sleep
so I don't fear carbohydrates at all and
oftentimes I'll eat 300 grams of
carbohydrates a day
and I'm five nine and a half 170 pounds
so I'm not a huge human
but I am quite active and I'll get 300
300 plus grams and the easiest way for
me to do that is with honey in addition
to fruit I mean I can get orange juice
in the morning I can squeeze some orange
juice I can have local tropical fruit
right now we've got rambutan in season
and some mangosteen which people may or
not be familiar with there's some
mangoes there's pineapple but getting
300 grams of carbohydrates from fruit
take a lot of work and fruit juice makes
it easier
sometimes when I talk about fruit trees
people say that's not evolutionarily
appropriate and I think well
I'm pretty sure our ancestors would
juice fruit they don't like fiber that
much when I was with the hadza they
would often chew roots and spit out all
the fiber so I think it's common for
humans to sort of make juice in their
mouth by spitting out extra fiber
in fibrous fruits and if they had the
ability I think that it's it's common to
see them make juice I mean many
indigenous cultures make sugar cane
juice which is quite delicious and
probably very healthy for humans without
being processed juicing is very common
more common people think so I could make
a lot of juice out of the fruit but the
honey is another thing that's beneficial
I think in terms of the carbohydrates
there's actually also studies in
diabetics showing that honey improves
insulin sensitivity so I think that
coming back to this idea that
and this may sound ironic to people
I hope to share ideas that are valuable
for people and the intention has always
been to
suggests the highest degree of variety
with the least amount of toxins and
that's expanding over time right in the
carnivore diet there's not a lot of
variety but I think that I was thinking
incorrectly about the toxins that could
be in fruit
I was worried about the sugars there
so now I think why not have honey in
your diet it actually has a lot of good
data in diabetics cardiovascular disease
in addition to fruit and fruit juice
which have similar data
there's data with red blood red orange
juice regular orange juice and a few
other fruit juices I think grape juice
showing improvements in endothelial
function
sort of post
-contraction dilatation in the
endothelium which is the blood vessel
lining on the inside of both the the
veins and the arteries
so when people say that fruit is bad for
humans or it causes insulin resistance I
sort of shake my head and wait for them
to show me any sort of data that really
corroborates that and doesn't really
work that way
there's data showing that fructose is
harmful in animal models but fructose is
not the same as fruit in a whole food
form and animal models are uniquely bad
at predicting fructose in humans because
mice and rats metabolize fructose very
differently than humans people also
conflate studies with high fructose corn
syrup and things with honey and fruit so
those don't look the same in human data
either
there's actually data in mice
interestingly showing that when mice are
fed
sucrose so table sugar which is a
disaccharide of glucose and fructose
versus high fructose corn syrup which is
theoretically also glucose and fructose
at pretty similar ratios the mice gained
much more weight on the high fructose
corn syrup so you have one you know
component which is
probably moderately processed and
sucrose in one component which is highly
processed and high fructose corn syrup
and you're not looking at really the
same thing so that's a bit of a
digression about
fruit and sugar fear but hopefully I
answered your question there you talked
about something there I want to
highlight I think it's really important
the fact that as we're hearing about
your diet and how it's evolved and how
you have quite a few carbohydrates now
it's important to note the fact that you
are highly active
and you again you did touch on this but
you some or somebody who is out surfing
and you talked about skateboarding like
I'm only judging this from what I see
online but you're moving your body
you know throughout the whole day more
than the average person by far
so for somebody who's taking this in
right now maybe they're working an
office job and they're like oh I can
have carbs again and honey and it's like
you need to really take that in context
of the lifestyle you're living which is
very unique and at the website which is
Paul saladino
md.co.co there's a free animal-based
calculator
and we kind of put a metric in there for
how active are you
and you can go and say oh I'm very
active or moderately active or just
minimally active
and the calculator will scale the
carbohydrates for you so I think that
definitely
not everyone needs 300 grams of
carbohydrates a day most people probably
don't need 200 grams of carbohydrates a
day but
for some people who are Elite athletes
or who are active
getting more carbohydrates clearly has
profound benefits and oftentimes when
people go from carnivore to animal based
they won't eat enough carbohydrates and
that causes problems so if anything
people tend to err on the side of too
few carbohydrates actually
um and that causes issues I hear people
all the time I mean we're doing this
month at heart and soil we're doing the
animal base 30 which is a free 30-day
animal-based eating challenge
and people will often say I do Jiu Jitsu
and I'm getting muscle cramps
can I say or the team will say what are
you eating and they say well I'm having
like four ounces of strawberries and a
handful of blueberries a day and we say
well that's great
that's like 35 grams of carbohydrates
that's nothing
so getting someone at least above a
hundred if they're even moderately
active in terms of carbohydrates makes a
massive difference and I think some
people have talked about doing an
animal-based diet
and they just don't
it's easier for people to get
carbohydrates from oatmeal or sweet
potatoes
and sweet potatoes are kind of this gray
area but oatmeal is something I'm not a
huge fan of at all
it's easier people to get carbohydrates
from oatmeal than it is from fruit and
honey they just don't eat enough fruit
they don't eat enough fruit juice we
have this fear of these things and most
people tend to be too low carb and they
end up just going low carb in their keto
again and they end up with all the same
problems
and another area that highlights the
point I was making there of your unique
lifestyle when you talked about
supplements
you didn't mention vitamin D which is a
common one for a lot of people here in
North America you're now down in Costa
Rica where you're getting sun and you're
out with your shirt off and I'm here in
Ontario where we have you know gray
skies for the majority not the majority
you know maybe two-thirds of the year
so depending on your unique situation
you have to look at this
with unique eyes yeah I mean I don't
know the video is showing it really well
right now but I'm pretty tan
you look good Jesse you look like you're
tan from here I don't know while you're
catching me in that one third of the
Year where we have Sun so I'm getting
sun right now and I'm taking full
advantage of that but in the other two
thirds of the year I'm making sure my
vitamin D supplementation is in a good
range and
again it's just you're living this
really unique life and I just want to
make sure that point is highlighted I
think vitamin D is a is a valuable
supplement for people and you're right I
appreciate you pointing that out
um I do think that it is it interesting
living near the equator so I live at the
eighth
I live at a latitude of eight eight
north latitude
Austin Texas I think is
27 28.
in Ontario you're probably
39 who knows
um
maybe 36 maybe 36 34. I think Seattle
was pretty far up there
and so I think that the cutoff is
something like 27 28 if you're above 27
28 in the latitude then you can just
look this up online
there is a significant portion of the
Year where you have a vitamin D winter
where the Sun never actually gets high
enough in the sky to make any vitamin D
even if it's a sunny day it's valuable
to be in the Sun for your circadian
rhythm but you're not making any vitamin
D on your skin so you you have to really
do something else to to get that that
nutrient and for most of us probably the
ideal would be getting super tan in the
summer but even in the summer you
probably can't go out and get massively
Tan in Ontario because
you need to do some work inside at some
point I mean you're podcasting from
indoors right now you're losing your tan
exactly
well let's talk more about that move so
obviously with this lifestyle you're
living you know you love surfing you're
a very active guy Costa Rica makes sense
from that perspective now you're
incorporating fruit I'm assuming there's
a lot of good fruit down there
but talk about when you made the move
and what the reasons were behind that if
there's anything beyond what I just said
yeah so I moved to Costa Rica about two
and a half years ago
I first lived on the Guanacaste
peninsula in a town called Santa Teresa
I've since moved away from there and now
I live on the coast
elsewhere but I
was living in Austin Texas and
I was missing this is going to sound
strange people I was missing Flow State
so
I started skiing in my early 20s
when I was 21 or 22 I threw hike to the
Pacific Crest Trail which means I walked
from Mexico to Canada
and after that trip with my friend that
I hiked with I moved to Telluride
and I started skiing in Southwest
Colorado and I never had ski before in
my life and I thought this is really
cool
it just kind of unlocked something for
me that I'd never had before which is
this Flow State this idea that moving
across snow preferably powder snow
was did interesting things to my brain I
just tickled my brain in unique ways and
it brought incredible amounts of joy to
my life
and so for the next six years I
basically chased Flow State downhill
mountain biking mountain biking
skiing climbing Mountaineering and
eventually I went back to graduate
school to physician assistant school
where I worked as a Cardiology PA for
four years before returning to medical
school and that was the beginning of my
medical Journey but so I had like six
years of this
very unique time in my life where I was
just doing something where in the moment
in Flow State you just sort of Lose
Yourself it's just it's so fun it's just
for lack of a better word is just pure
joy as a child and you're just you're so
in the moment because you have to just
focus on what you're doing
fast forward to two and a half years ago
I was in Austin
I love the people there
but I was just missing this Flow State
I had a foil board
that I would take out to Lake Travis but
it wasn't quite
the same I started surfing a few years
before that in Seattle when I was in my
residency which is about the worst place
to ever learn to surf but
even though I'd probably only been on
a handful of legitimate waves in my
whole life
after leaving Seattle and moving to
Austin I that feeling was just really
meaningful to me and
this may sound
I don't know how it what word I want to
use there it may sound trivial to people
but I've come to realize that in my own
life
the more fun I'm having and the more joy
that I experience on a daily basis the
more productive I am in my work
so the more of my passions my real
passions not my work passions but my
just Hobbies my quote-unquote frivolous
passions that I pursue the more
productive I am in my creative work in
the world so I think that getting to
surf
getting to skateboard getting to do
these things over the last five years
has been a key component of all the work
that I've done in the world writing a
book building companies podcasting like
this is what keeps me going and it's
really the antidote to burnout for me
so in Austin I was feeling kind of
burned out I just didn't have enough
Flow State I couldn't get this and
maybe I
could have found a boat or rented a boat
or found friends with a boat and gone
wake surfing but I was on my way back
from Tanzania visiting the hadza and I
came to Costa Rica on a vacation
and ended up just staying so I was at
eight day vacation I got to surf in
Santa Teresa I loved it I got to see the
sunrise I think I got to experience
firsthand a lot of the things that you
were describing that I didn't even know
that I was missing in Austin
I was up with the sun I was grounding
in the ocean my circadian rhythm was
programmed because I was getting the
sunlight in my eyes
I was watching sunsets it was community
I was in the ocean surfing
Flow State
and just so everyone knows I'm pretty
mediocre Surfer but I really love it not
great but I still I'm getting better but
I really like it and so it was just this
the realization like wow this is the
best life I've ever lived
I want to keep doing this and so I did
so I just you know eight days turned
into two months turned into three months
turned into a year
and now
I live in Costa Rica yeah and thankfully
I can do my work virtually so I don't
have to be somewhere in the United
States did anybody else move down with
you or was this a solo thing solo brush
it's charging yeah and that's that's why
I brought this up because we know
Community is such an important piece for
it sounds like you're in a really good
mental place and you're getting these
this flow benefit and
I'm assuming there's a great Community
there but how
how is that part of your life panned out
since you know
pulling yourself out of Austin and
plopping yourself in this new area have
you been able to quickly make a new
community and group of friends there
not quickly but it's happening
I think surfing helps
because
there's so much camaraderie and surfing
you're out there in the ocean especially
when the waves get overhead or
moderately large
you're just out there with friends and
you're watching each other get destroyed
by waves or you're watching each other
get a great wave and you're cheering
each other on and
you meet people on the beach watching
the surf it's just a very tight-knit
community of people and the my community
now expands out from there and
everywhere I've gone in Costa Rica it's
really started with the surfing
community meeting people on the beach
and in the ocean one of the nice things
about living on the coast
is that you see people on the beach and
you see people you know there's also
farmers markets here so I see people at
farmers market so there's just this
different pace of life
and there's an ease of intersection of
our lives right I live in a small town
and so there's people that I know and
I'm very likely to bump into those
people in certain places so it's this
ease of community
people know people and I think when
you're living in Costa Rica especially
as an expat so someone from the United
States
you've made this intentional Choice when
you find other people whether it's
families or single people you think why
are you here what are you doing here
everyone has an interesting story they
wanna live a different life they want to
live in the jungle they want clean air
clean water proximity to surfing
whatever
it lends itself to just very human
connections and commonalities which is
pretty cool so it doesn't feel as
separated right like we're just not as
separate from other people here
we wear less clothes we're mostly
Barefoot I'm sure less this is very rare
that I'm even wearing a shirt for this
podcast
you see people all over the place so
it's it feels more
like being a human to me in a lot of
ways and I think that
if people are listening to this and
thinking that's great for you Paul but I
could never do that
all I would say is there's lessons in
all of that that can be
employed wherever you are you can get
sun in the morning wherever you live
you can get into the sun in the summer
you can go to bodies of water you can
ground you can touch grass
and I think that if I were to move back
to the United States and live anywhere
in the United States or Canada I'm not a
Canadian citizen but
or anywhere I think that I would try to
seek out some of the same things that
I've created here for myself
places where I'm going to connect with
people who are like-minded
kind of easily whether that's a skate
park or a Whole Foods or you know some
sort of community center where I'm going
to intersect with people that's very
meaningful for me it happens organically
here but I know in Austin now there's a
couple of places popping up where people
who are like-minded end up hanging out
Assad on cold plunge and or gyms I think
if you can find a gym where people are
sort of like-minded there are some gyms
with a certain ethos this difference in
other gyms right so that kind of stuff I
think you can create these things
Wherever You Are
um I'm quite grateful to be able to do
it here in Costa Rica but I think it's
scalable to most places and I think
wherever I would live now I would want
to be by water because being here has
really reminded me of the benefits of
that Austin had some water and when I
used to live there I would be at Barton
Springs all the time when I go back to
visit
you can find me at Barton Springs so if
you guys are listening to this and
if you go to Barton Springs you'll
probably see me there when I'm in Austin
I see people there all the time
while hearing your story here you've at
least alluded to the fact that it's
crossed your mind that you might move
back to the US or move away from Costa
Rica
How likely do you feel it'll be that
you'll be in Costa Rica long term pretty
likely
any downsides of moving there
sure
um
in Costa Rica there's this saying Pura
Vida and record a joke there's these
puravita problems
so
most adulting quote unquote things are
two to three times harder to do here
it's harder to pay your electric bill
it's harder to pay your internet bill
it's hard to get your car inspected cars
break down here
um so there's definitely downsides but
for me it's totally worth it and once
you figure out
how to do it all it's pretty doable
I live kind of up in the mountains a few
kilometers from the ocean so
power goes out sometimes internet goes
out sometimes
uh yeah the
I think landslides happen a lot of roads
are dirt
um
things happen things happen it's
different
it's definitely different it's not all
roses here for sure but it's it's a
different type of life
I think that I've gotten to a place now
where I've been able to create a space
that's a little bit more insulated from
those things I have backup batteries in
my house and a generator and
I haven't figured out the Wi-Fi yet when
I get starlink that'll be great
um if you find people in the community
you can lean on them to teach you where
a good mechanic is and how to do the
things you need to do for your car or
how to pay your internet bill and your
other things there's like a whole
there's a whole industry that's sprung
up around people helping other people
move
to Costa Rica and Central America
because it's sort of a headache and
believe me when I first when I first
moved to Santa Teresa
my power and internet got shut off
so I bought a house in Santa Teresa now
sold it but I think within a month and a
half of moving into that house my power
and internet got shut off because I
thought I don't even know how to pay
this and it's now I just woke up one day
I don't have internet I don't have power
what the heck
I don't even know how to do this
so it's you can just do it online it's
very difficult
well Paul throughout our conversation
we've gotten a pretty good idea of the
amount of activity you do the different
activities you do throughout the day
what work looks like what your diet
looks like
but I think it'd be interesting to take
us through a typical day
when you get up what you do what you eat
what your eating window looks like
can you take me through what that is
yeah it's evolved over time but
go to sleep at about 8 P.M which sounds
really early
Until you realize that the sun goes down
here at 6 PM year round because we're at
the Equator so the day is never really
vary much
slightly but not much
sun comes up at about 5 15 so I usually
get up with the sunrise
and I'm usually in the ocean before 6
a.m surfing
before I surf I have a glass of raw milk
and honey
maybe a coconut for water like a real
coconut
serve for a couple hours
come back
eat breakfast breakfast is usually
fresh squeezed orange juice local fruit
grass-fed meat steak or Burger
cheese raw milk
maybe some liver
and then uh
depending what time of the morning it is
I
settle in
do a little stretching after surfing sit
down to do some work for a few hours I
try to block my work into like two
deep work sessions of two or three hours
usually I get like two two hour blocks a
day of deep work creative work whether
it's podcasting with you or someone else
a podcast from my podcast research for a
podcast
after the first
um
deep work session I'll usually eat again
maybe a smaller meal a little bit of
meat cheese
fruit
coconut type of thing
and then maybe another deep work session
maybe not
maybe an afternoon workout my friend Ben
Patrick was just here knees over toes
guy
so I do a lot of his stuff for workouts
not a whole lot of weight lifting
but it's a lot of Mobility training I
sit too much so I'm always trying to un
lock my hips
I'm interested in the strength of my
posterior deltoids trying to make my
posterior shoulders really strong for
surfing
my tibialis muscles my calves these kind
of things I have a gym in my house but I
mostly end up doing body weight Mobility
stuff
in the afternoon I'll often either go
out for another surf or skate with my
friends maybe put up a slack line
somewhere
and then come home
5 5 30 dinner
I usually eat dinner by the time it gets
dark here around six
dinner is usually
more grass-fed meat raw dairy honey
fruit organs
and uh I mean I try and mix it up but
I'm one of these people that finds
routine
comforting I don't really need to change
my food if I've got good ground beef and
I've got
good fruit I'll just eat that
consistently I don't have to eat crazy
steaks or lots of different things I
don't use many spices in my food in fact
I don't use any spices other than just a
low microplastic sea salt
so yeah the variety of my diet comes
with like seasonal fruit here whatever
is in season I'll eat that like no like
I said rambutan mangosteen
pineapple mango
it's coming into season so yeah it's
meat it's organs fruit fruit juice raw
dairy honey
that's kind of what I eat and I eat it
throughout the day so the eating window
is
pretty it's pretty much the whole day I
used it in a red and fast I don't do
that anymore
I'll eat
when I get up at six
you know 5 30 in the morning eat my last
meal at 6 6 30 sometimes so
yeah there could be a 12 hour eating
window or more in the day and I think
that that's fine I don't really worry
about that anymore that's a whole
separate conversation well hearing you
talk about what you eat and and the meat
you're eating it sounds like at least
the majority of it is beef
I'm curious the diversity within that
meat category
how much of it is beef how much of it is
ground beef
this ties back to what we talked about
before you know you're a big fan of
getting quality animal products are you
having chicken pork and obviously it's
going to be dependent on where you're
living and what you have access to so
talk about the meat piece and what the
diversity looks like
I haven't found any good chicken or pork
in Costa Rica so I just eat beef
there's a great butcher here in town
that is grass-fed grass-finished uses no
pesticides on their land
I was just talking to a friend
about getting one of his cattle
a year and a half old
um cow that's been on their land fed
only grass no pesticides the whole life
so probably will eat that meat most of
what I eat is ground beef
I
don't I really like ground beef and I
think it's affordable and it's not
yeah you don't have to do anything crazy
when I do steak I like skirt steak or
flat iron or hanger steak
if I can get a good rib eye I'll eat it
but that's not the majority of my meals
um I don't eat a lot of eggs though I
think eggs are great for humans because
they just haven't found the right people
to do it
on my land I want to start growing
chickens and maybe the chickens I'll eat
the chickens eventually and maybe I'll
eat their eggs if I can just keep them
safe from predators we'll see and just
get them to eat bugs and crickets and
worms and things like that
that would be an interesting piece of
content to show what their eggs look
like so
I don't eat much fish
I think that fish in general is
problematic for humans in 2023 because
of the heavy metals the microplastics
pfas
so para floral alkyl substances the same
kind of things that are in these
Lululemon leggings are also in your fish
endocrine disruptors forever chemicals
are synonyms for that classic chemicals
I don't think it's a big deal if people
want to eat fish every once in a while
but if you make fish the majority of
your diet I think it would be prudent to
check your heavy metals
because fish is a real problem when it
comes to that stuff it's just not not
great for humans and it's just polluted
so I don't eat a lot of fish anymore but
I think it's reasonable on an
animal-based diet
same with chicken and pork I just
haven't found a good enough source
and I found pretty good sources of beef
um yeah and I get raw milk locally and
farmers markets again Community talking
to the farmers organic produce there is
great
you mentioned ground beef being a big
part of the diet
how do you keep that interesting how do
you cook that man I you know I I think
that if the ground beef has enough fat
you won't get bored of it but if the
ground beef is too lean your body will
get bored of it and I don't think I'm
programmed as differently from other
people as those listening May believe
um for many people when they think about
eating a lot of meat especially a lot of
red meat their first concern is I'm
going to get so bored but more often
than not I hear people surprised at how
satisfying it is and how often they look
forward to the next meal as long as that
meat has a reasonable amount of fat so
when I'm getting ground beef I'm getting
80 20.
at least 85 15 never 90 10.
and if I need to make it more
interesting I'll just add some butter I
think meat gets boring when it's just
protein if you have some fat in there
it's juicy it's just it's rewarding and
your body's gonna love it it's just
people are eating meat that's too lean
and it feels boring so if you get fat in
your meat it's going to be fine most of
the time if you're really a foodie and
you're using food as entertainment
that's great food is amazing
and oftentimes that that can be an
impediment to really optimizing your
health
so I like ground beef because it's easy
it tastes good
one of the downsides living in Costa
Rica is we don't have Angus Cattle here
or wagyu they don't do well in the heat
we have a mixture of Brahmin and Angus
or I think it's Nell your cattle and
they're not as good
so the rib eyes I've had here are very
hidden Miss every once in a while I get
a good rib eye but
the skirt steak is fine
but the ground beef is just hey if
you've got kind of tough meat just make
ground beef out of it I'm a simple man
I'll make bone broth also I forgot about
that I've actually got some oxtail in
the crock pot uh instant pot right now
that I'm going to use for collagen
so yeah I don't think ground beef is
problematic if people want to do
different steaks that's fine and if you
need variety chicken pork fish fine
great just think about the pros and cons
of each piece of that and yeah I would
say the piece that people are probably
not thinking about with regard to
boredom
is the fat content of the meat people
want to trim the fat off and
that doesn't make exciting meat
so you mentioned even adding butter into
the ground beef will you ever add other
things like towel or coconut oil you
could add Tallow if you wanted to I
don't add coconut oil I generally don't
use coconut oil for anything anymore
um but you could sometimes you could put
a little cheese I think people will will
intuitively understand that like a
cheeseburger is more interesting than a
hamburger that's probably because of
well the dairy is interesting and the
fat from the cheese is good too so I
suppose if you wanted to you could put
some cheese in your burger if it's too
lean or something and then Grill it I
also have a really nice Grill here in
Costa Rica that I brought from the
United States
and so it makes the meat pretty good
I'm really honing in on this ground beef
piece because I do tend to enjoy ground
beef as well and I'm trying to think of
different ways I can diversify and and
enjoy it in a different Realm I love
burgers
but do you find a lot of the time you're
just like cooking it up in a pan and and
then putting it on a plate and eating it
with a fork and keeping it really simple
or is it mostly Burgers I just really
want your ideas as somebody that really
eats a lot of that I cook it on a grill
I don't cook in the pan ever
so the grill I think helps and
you know I will eat it with I usually
have a glass of milk with it
or I'll have a glass of orange juice
with it or I'll have some fruit with it
but I'm pretty simple it's usually fruit
and meat
some kind of orange juice milk
and I think I mean how how lean is your
ground beef
to be honest I couldn't tell you off the
top of my head I'm gonna now that I know
the percentages I'm gonna be more keen
on observing that and looking for the
fattier the fattier me and I think
there's a lot of I don't know how much
regulation there is around
saying something is 80 20.
and then actually
about really having a b80 20.
the linear the leaner meats are actually
usually more expensive so I don't know
why
they would mislabel an 80 20 but
um a lot of times when I go to the US I
will get ground beef and it says it's 80
20 and I think this is not even not even
close 80 20 is pretty fatty ground beef
you'll know it
and I've had ground beef in the United
States that's even more fatty than that
it's probably 25 or 30 fat and that's
really good so 70 30 and if you're
getting me from a butcher and they can
grind some extra fat in there for you
it'll be really good
I had this ground beef in the states
I think it was from Panorama Farms
and it had
I think it was
26 or 28 grams of fat per serving which
sounds like a lot if you think fat is
bad for you it sounds like a lot if you
think that is good for you but it was
delicious
most ground beef per serving is 17 to 18
grams and I think the serving sizes
on the back of a ground beef package I'd
have to guess it's either four or six
ounces
so I'm not sure exactly how much is in
there but you definitely want
more fat in your ground beef it'll taste
so much better and obviously I believe
that animal fat is good for humans
vitamin E vitamin K2 so many other good
fat soluble nutrients stearic acid so
don't fear the animal it just tastes
better A lot of fatty Burgers then yeah
fatty Burgers we're adding cheese to
your burger or raw cheese to your burger
you know what I've had also that's
really good is raw cream
I know raw milk is illegal in Canada
unfortunately
that's probably the number one reason
you should move
but if you have raw cream and you add
raw cream to your burger that's I don't
know how you can get bored of that you
can also take an egg yolk if you have
good eggs and you want to crack a raw
egg yolk not the white but just a raw
egg yolk on your burger that makes it
interesting too I've done that
um raw cream cheese on a burger is great
so adding the fat onto the burger
different flavors that's really good
honey
so one of the best things is just butter
and honey or sour cream and honey yogurt
and honey
yogurt and egg yolk like all like the
creamy fatty things on the burger your
sauce
thank you for that a lot of great ideas
let's move into body care products and I
think this has a couple different layers
to it one being the fact you're in Costa
Rica and you probably don't have access
like you do in the U.S
and then two being the fact that you're
you're diet and your lifestyle is animal
based
so how do you source good products to
clean your skin and and we'll even bring
that into the home too let's talk about
the different products you're using on
your body and in your home
that you feel good about
yeah this was actually really
interesting
so I hate fragrances
hate fragrances a lot of time fragrances
are phthalates or other things that
humans don't want
so I don't like fragrances in my laundry
detergent I don't like fragrances in my
dishwasher detergent I don't like I
don't even use dishwasher I wash my
dishes by hand
so what I discovered in Costa Rica is
that white vinegar is amazing laundry
detergent that's all I get it's three
dollars for a huge jug of white vinegar
and I just put that in my washing
machine and my clothes are great
so if you look at laundry detergents in
general there's a compound found in a
lot of laundry detergents called one for
dioxane
it's a probable almost certain human
carcinogen and it's above two parts per
million in in many different laundry
detergents so even laundry detergents
that are fragrance free have one for
dioxane in them something you can absorb
from your clothes so I really like
washing my clothes in vinegar one of the
hardest things for me about traveling is
that I go to airbnbs and the sheets are
washed and some fragrance containing
laundry detergent
so if you want to use a detergent the
Seventh Generation
fragrance free has zero one for dioxane
but that's the only one I've seen that
has zero one for dioxide I have no
affiliation with that
but I just use vinegar for my clothes
works great
for my dishes I run into the same
problem in Costa Rica in the United
States I can get Seventh Generation or
ecos like fragrance free dishwasher soap
or hands basically not hand soap but
soap for my brush because I just wash my
dishes by hand I like that process I
don't like dishwashers
but in Costa Rica it's very hard to find
those things so I realize baking soda
works great for that
so my two home care products are white
vinegar and baking soda and it's it's so
satisfying to think oh this is super
cheap baking soda is like there's
nothing contaminating it super clean
it's usually USP so us pharmacopoeia you
know like it's sodium bicarbonate that's
it
um and it works great so that's what I
use for my dishes
I wash them by hand if you look at
dishwasher detergents a lot of them
contain alcohol ethoxylates which are
known to damage the human gut and a lot
of that residue stays on the dishes so
you probably could find a better
dishwasher detergent but when I look on
Amazon dishwasher detergents are tough
even the clean ones have alcohol with
oxalates in them so
dish soaps you can probably get a good
dish soap if you wash them by hand but
if you want to wash your dishes in a
dishwasher be careful you're probably
leaving residue on there that's not
great for you and your family
in terms of soaps
same kind of stuff I would use a soap
that's fragrance free
or had some essential oil in it that I
like the scent of I don't really use any
scent that's made from Tallow or
something in Costa Rica I don't use any
soap I just rinse off in water I'm in
the ocean hours a day
I have good water in my house we
actually the the water for this
neighborhood is from a spring and a well
so I just rinse off in water I don't use
soap in my body
um if I'm kneading deodorant I can
either use apple cider vinegar or
rubbing alcohol there are some good
natural deodorants out there that have
that are Tallow based probably build one
of my own here pretty soon and bring it
to Market but that's in the works
um so if people want that stuff it's
available but I think there are natural
ways to
change human odor if you're in a space
where smelling like a human isn't
effective or isn't acceptable
interestingly when I was in Los Angeles
recently for the arowan Smoothie launch
that animal-based smoothie with arawan
one girl came up to me and she goes hey
can I smell you and I thought oh my God
all right we got this on video I'm sure
we'll put it out as content
because she heard that I don't I don't
use deodorant I don't use soap and she
totally smelled me she's like you smell
good and I was like yeah I don't know I
don't smell bad
um I think wearing natural clothing
helps with that
so I wear wool shirts
and cotton shorts
in the past when I wore synthetic
clothing polyester clothing stinks way
more than
natural clothing and I found that wool
clothing doesn't really smell so
sometimes if I have a cotton shirt
and I work out in a lot it'll get a
little stinky but wool doesn't even
smell we'll like resist the smell so
even not wearing deodorant my clothing
doesn't smell and I feel like it's not
so much the humans that smell it's our
clothing that smells because that gets
like the oils and the skin cells and the
bacteria break that down and usually
it's not humans unless you're eating a
crappy diet that smell bad it's just
your clothing that gets like metabolized
by bacteria so wool clothing has been a
real nice hack for me for that I mean
this woman I've never met her she like
leans over and smells me right away and
in public and she was like oh you smell
fine
proof I don't use toothpaste
I think toothpaste is a scam I think you
can remove the the calculus from your
teeth just with a toothbrush and water
and I don't think that you need
toothpaste to fortify your teeth
especially if you're eating fat soluble
nutrients found in liver and egg yolks
and meat
I don't whiten my teeth I don't do any
of those things I just use a toothbrush
and water to brush my teeth
there are some of these tooth powders
now that have
calcium hydroxyapatite in them and that
may be beneficial over tooth enamel but
I think you have to be careful that you
don't overly abrade the enamel of your
teeth
you can definitely put too much tension
and friction on your teeth you don't
really want to brush your teeth with
baking soda then we'll abrade the enamel
so the enamel is kind of fragile on your
teeth and I've people have overly
damage their teeth from using too much
abrasiveness so I'm not really sure that
calcium hydroxyapatite is the best thing
to be using on your teeth you don't need
to like sand blast your teeth just a
basic toothbrush and water removes
plaque it's just it's amazing how it
does that
I found some toothbrushes that are
natural fibers rather than plastic I
don't know how much of the plastic and a
toothbrush fiber could break off and
become a microplastic but I try to think
about minimizing that so I can get like
Boar's Head bristle toothbrushes
I don't use shampoo I have short hair so
I can just wash my hair in water
I know there are natural alternatives
I've seen some women doing cool stuff
online with
apple cider vinegar egg yolks and some
other
girl stuff I don't know they put in
their hair
but yeah so I'm a pretty simple man I
think the men out there will understand
that women will probably think I can't
do that but I think you can probably do
more than you think
I um I use sunscreen in Costa Rica but
it's a personal prototype sunscreen of a
brand that I'm building it's just Tallow
and zinc that I use on my face when I'm
surfing
a lot of sunscreen has seed oils in it
you don't want to put seed oils on your
skin
nor do I want octocrylines octobenzone
have a benzone and all these sunscreen
components that can get absorbed through
the skin into the body
I think spray-on sunscreen is a travesty
and should be illegal because I don't
want to have to inhale your sunscreen
just like I don't want to inhale your
cigarette smoke it's basically the same
thing
probably equally bad for me is your
cigarette's milk so in terms of skin
care
it's what I eat I don't do it I don't
wash my face
uh I don't do it I don't have to do it I
I think that some people get worried
about it I think you can put Tallow on
your skin
um the same skin care companies in the
works we're going to develop a Tallow
face bomb
I think animal fats work great on the
skin pure Tallow is a little greasy so
we're going to have to combine it with
some other things pure butter is a
little greasy on the skin doesn't absorb
real well so we'll get it so that's more
absorbent but animal fats on the skin
work great for skin care
I don't think people have acne because
their skin isn't clean enough I think
they have acne because of the foods
they're eating so I I don't have to use
crazy soaps and rinses to clean my face
and you know I'm sweating and outside
and in the ocean all day and I usually
just use water when I shower and I don't
I don't scrub the heck out of it or do
anything crazy I don't have a crazy
skincare routine
um this is pretty simple I think it's
overly complicated for a lot of people
and you know I was recently in Los
Angeles did a podcast with a really
amazing woman who has lost a lot of
weight and then also has a skin care
journey and was talking to her about
cutting out vegetables from her diet I
think that'll help with acne ironically
people fear milk when it comes to acne
but I think it's the pasteurized kind
that generally triggers the acne not the
not the raw milk so I think skin care is
really interesting
and that it starts with what you eat
it's foundationally what you eat and if
you have skin issues think really hard
about what you eat and maybe you don't
have to worry so much about all the
things that you're putting on your face
wow that's incredible how little you do
and and your skin looks great your teeth
look really white
so whatever you're doing is working
the part I'm particularly fascinated
with is the teeth only using water and a
toothbrush to clean them
how long have you been doing that and
have you had any cavities or any signs
of Decay there
last time I had a cavity was when I was
a vegan
so maybe 12 or 13 years ago no there's
no I don't have veneers or any teaks or
placements you know like all the teeth
are mine no I think that tooth health is
about fat soluble vitamins and even even
eating fruit and honey I think that the
immune system in your teeth
these odontocytes these these actual
immune cells that live in the teeth can
handle all of that if you're getting
enough fat soluble vitamins we know that
vitamin K2 is critical vitamin D these
are critical for healthy teeth and bones
it's a lot of what we eat and how we
live this is Western a price you know
101 you look at people all over the
world this dentist from the 1940s
there's incredible pictures in his books
nutrition and physical degeneration of
huge broad smiles and you know
indigenous people that don't even brush
their teeth at all big strong jaws and
big smiles and I think that that's just
the absence of processed foods and lots
of animal foods to get those nutrients
but yeah I think toothpaste is overrated
obviously fluoride I'm not a fan of
fluoride at all I think there's
compelling evidence in both animals and
humans the fluoride is harmful at a
number of different levels
even the natural toothpaste quote
unquote without fluoride is going to
have polyethylene glycol or soaps or
fragrances things which are abrasive
which can abrade the enamel we get used
to wanting our breath to smell like
toothpaste when in fact it's okay for
your breath just to smell like human
breath like people are still going to
want to kiss you if your breath just
smells like a human
you don't have to worry about that if
you do have bad breath it's usually
coming from your gut and not your mouth
though it can be your mouth but that
population of bacteria in your mouth is
from your gut so that's dysbiosis in
your gut which is again probably
connected with your diet and fixable
with dietary changes when I was in
college
oh when I was in medical school no PA
school this is my late 20s I remember I
was going on a date with a girl
and I had Listerine I had a Listerine
phase I mean Listerine seems great until
you actually look at the data with it
how bad it is for humans but it's just
you know it's this minty like alcohol
Blitz for your mouth you feel like
you're just killing everything I
remember walking out of the house and my
parents were just like whoa your mouth
smells way too much like Listerine and I
thought it's cool I'm good
but now we know that when you do that
when you bomb your mouth with mouthwash
you're killing all these nitric oxide
producing bacteria in the mouth
and there's been a lot of talk recently
about data that people who use mouthwash
before they work out
like actually decrease their muscle
gains from working out you get less
significantly less benefits from working
out if you use mouthwash before you work
out so like you want these Gap Flora you
want these bacteria in your mouth that
produce nitric oxide you just want
healthy populations
but I shudder to think about how much
Listerine that I use in the past
well Paul as you talk about this story
from back in the day going on this date
it gets me thinking about
you and and
the future for you with you know getting
married having a family
it's not something I've seen you post
about is that
obviously like certain things need to
align and it's not totally in your
control
but is is getting married and having a
family a goal for you down the line
definitely yeah yeah it's definitely a
goal for me I mean I'm single never been
married no kids but living in Costa Rica
makes me think about
how cool it would be to raise children
here
kind of in the jungle in nature all
these things and yeah I think about it a
lot I think that
in some ways I'm grateful that
I'm still single because
I'm probably significantly older than
the average person who's never been
married before but at the same time
hopefully I've had time to kind of
refine what I'm looking for in a partner
and I think I have a pretty good sense
of that now
and uh yeah I think when it when it when
it happens it'll it'll be good and
really excited to raise some wild kids
in the jungle in Costa Rica
and feed them lots of meat and organ
fruit yeah
right on well Paul it's been fun to
catch up there was a lot of big areas
that had changed since we last talked
and we got to really get in there and
hash them out we're gonna link up your
book we're going to link up your website
social media everything in the show
notes and I've just really enjoyed
following your journey and your
Evolution and the fact that you've been
so upfront as you've continued to Pivot
and
I just want to honor you and and thank
you for being so open to change and to
sharing that Journey with all of us and
thank you for coming on the show
it's great man thank you for having me
it's an honor to be here with you and uh
yeah I'm glad that people benefit from
what I'm putting out there I hope it's
helpful for people and I'm excited to
keep doing it because
you know I'm pretty my cup is
overflowing because I get to serve every
day and I live in Costa Rica and I've
got a great community and so I'm just
excited to keep making
educational stuff that's beneficial for
people and thank you for helping me get
this to more people so that they can
think about things and be curious and
hopefully benefit from all of it so I
appreciate you too thanks man thank you
let's do it again sometime of course
anytime now that you're done my
conversation with Paul you're going to
want to stick around here and catch my
chat with Dr lustig he's got a unique
perspective on insulin resistance so you
don't want to miss this I'll see you
over there
ultimately it's not what's in the food
it's what's been done to the food that
matters everything fructose does to the
mitochondria is
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